Did Augustine support Sola Scriptura?

[Philthy]

I think Augustine’s passage here is an indication that Augustine may have had somewhat different ideas of dogma then are currently taught by the Church. It seems like he felt that dogmatic propositions could be beneficial, but also could be mistaken and corrected. This is different from the current view, that dogmatic propositions that are taught by councils or the pope ex cathedra, are infallible and irreformable.

I think there are a few things:

1. You needed to be a little specific in your OP with respect to what you mean by “like SS”. There is no higher form of revelation than Scripture in Catholicism, so it’s confusing as to what you are trying to discuss.
2. The original quote nevers claimsthat a dogmatic proposition could be mistaken as you suggest.You are now questioning dogma when Augustine doesnt use that term.

That much being said, Augustine clearly indicates that there is a hierarchy of authority apart from Scripture. I would say that such a notion contradicts something “like Sola Scriptura”.

"Who would not know that the holy canonical scriptures both of the Old and New Testament have a priority over all subsequence writings of bishops such that there cannot be any doubt or dispute at all as to whether whatever is written there is true or right;

Holy Scipture is inerrant - we all agree.

but that the writings of bishops after the settlement of the canon may be refuted both by the perhaps wiser words of anyone more experienced in the matter and by the weightier authority and more scholarly prudence of other bishops, and also by councils, if something in them perhaps has deviated from the truth; and that even councils held in particular regions or provinces must give way without quibbling (sine ullis ambagibus cedere) to the authority of plenary councils of the whole Christian world; and that even the earlier plenary councils are often (saepe) corrected (emendari) by later ones,

The word “emendari”, translated as “corrected”, looks a lot like the english word “amended”. I dont think of amending something as implying that there was a falsehood in the initial proclamation, but more as an adding of truth to it. An amendment moves from a partial expression of the Truth to a fuller expression of the same Truth. I looked in an online lexicon and “amend” is a synonym for emendari. Amend has various meanings which support my above speculation:
transitive verb1**:** to put right; especially : to make emendations in (as a text)2 a**:** to change or modify for the better : improve <amend the situation> b: to alter especially in phraseology; especially : to alter formally by modification, deletion, or addition <amend a constitution>intransitive verb**:** to reform oneself

 

[teachccd]

I have a master’s degree and I have never heard of the prefix “ur”. Can you just explain to me what that means for my own edification?

I can tell by all of your ten dollar words…

 

[Mintaka]

“Ur-” is a German prefix, meaning “original” or “primitive”. Academics writing in English stole it from the Germans.

So if I claimed that “Parcheesi is the ur-board game”, I’d be claiming that Parcheesi was the original board game from which all others were derived.

 

[jfoges]

“Ur-” is a German prefix, meaning “original” or “primitive”. Academics writing in English stole it from the Germans.

So if I claimed that “Parcheesi is the ur-board game”, I’d be claiming that Parcheesi was the original board game from which all others were derived.

So is it like the city Ur of Mesopotamia? The supposedly original city?

 

[Teflon93]

I have a master’s degree and I have never heard of the prefix “ur”. Can you just explain to me what that means for my own edification?

Sure—here’s a useful link:

ur-
prefix meaning “original, earliest, primitive,” from Ger. “original, primitive;” at first only in words borrowed from Ger. (cf. ursprache “hypothetical primitive language,” attested in Eng. from 1908), now a living prefix in Eng. Cf. also Urschleim under protoplasm and Urquell under Pilsner.

In the context I used, the Church St Augustine was a bishop within in the 4th century, had it recognized no authority or dogma, would have been either ur-Orthodox or ur-Protestant, a primitive form of either a church locked in perpetual stasis or perpetual change depending upon which response to lack of central authority prevailed.

It could not have effectively dealt with raging heresies absent the power to define and enforce dogma, as the ecumenical councils of 325 and 381 demonstrated.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

“Who would not know that the holy canonical scriptures both of the Old and New Testament have a priority over all subsequent writings of bishops such that there cannot be any doubt or dispute at all as to whether whatever is written there is true or right; but that the writings of bishops after the settlement of the canon may be refuted both by the perhaps wiser words of anyone more experienced in the matter and by the weightier authority and more scholarly prudence of other bishops, and also by councils, if something in them perhaps has deviated from the truth; and that even councils held in particular regions or provinces must give way without quibbling (sine ullis ambagibus cedere) to the authority of plenary councils of the whole Christian world; and that even the earlier plenary councils are often (saepe) corrected (emendari) by later ones, if as a result of practical experience (cum aliquo experimento rerum) something that was closed is opened, something that was hidden has become known?”

Firstly, the “them” in bold refers to “the writings of bishops after the settlement of the canon”; this manifestly includes this quote from St. Augustine.

This is what I mean by the OP interpretation being self-refuting.

Beyond that, St Augustine in this passage clearly makes the case for the hierarchy of the Church in formulating doctrine. It is no accident this passage is from his argument against the Donatists, who tried to overturn this hierarchy by placing their local ruling over that of the rest of the Church.

St Augustine did not agree that everyone has equal standing to interpret Scripture, nor that doctrine and dogma had to be based in it. Indeed, the very notion of the New Testament canon is a conciliar ruling; St Augustine respected the precedent.

You are reading far too much into “corrected” and not accounting enough for the difference between dogma and doctrine.

Poor St Augustine—he’s been made a heretic retroactively nearly as often as St Paul.

That’s an extremely important point you made about the grammar of the quote, Teflon.

You wrote some very nice posts on that page, I think .

 

[estesbob]

Like Sola Scriptura itself the idea that Augustine supported Sola Scripturu can only be arrived at by personal interpretation of a few selected quotes. How can one reconcile Augusines supposed support of Sola Scripture up with the following:

“I should not believe the Gospel except as moved by the AUTHORITY of the CATHOLIC CHURCH.”
Against the Letter of Mani 5,6, 397 A.D.

“But in regard to those observances which we carefully attend and which the whole world keeps, and which derive not from Scripture BUT FROM TRADITION, we are given to understand that they are recommended and ordained to be kept either by the Apostles themselves or by plenary COUNCILS, THE AUTHORITY OF WHICH IS QUITE VITAL TO THE CHURCH.”
Letter of Augustine to Januarius 54,1,1, 400 A.D.

“I believe that this practice comes from apostolic tradition, just as so many other practices NOT FOUND IN THEIR WRITINGS nor in the councils of their successors, but which, because they are kept by the whole Church everywhere, are believed to have been commended and handed down by the Apostles themselves.”
St. Augustine, Baptism 1,12,20, 400 A.D.

“What they found in the Church they kept; what they learned, they taught; what they received from the fathers, they handed on to the sons.”
St. Augustine, Against Julian, 2,10,33, 421 A.D.

“Since by Christ’s favor we are CATHOLIC Christians:”
St. Augustine, Letter to Vitalis, 217,5,16, 427 A.D.

“By the same word, by the same Sacrament you were born, but you will not come to the same inheritance of eternal life, unless you return to the CATHOLIC CHURCH.”
St. Augustine, Sermons, 3, 391 A.D.

“This Church is holy, the one Church, the true Church, the Catholic Church, fighting as she does against all heresies. She can fight, but she cannot be beaten. All heresies are expelled from her, like the useless loppings pruned from a vine. She remains fixed in her root, in her vine, in her love. The gates of hell shall NOT conquer her.”
St. Augustine, Sermon to Catechumens, on the Creed, 6,14, 395 A.D

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Read this quote from Augustine and tell me whether you think he is supporting something like Sola Scriptura. If you don’t think so, please explain how you interpret the quote:

"Who would not know that the holy canonical scriptures both of the Old and New Testament have a priority over all subsequence writings of bishops such that there cannot be any doubt or dispute at all as to whether whatever is written there is true or right;

This says:
Scripture is perfectly true, but the writing we read can be misinterpreted.

but that the writings of bishops after the settlement of the canon may be refuted both by the perhaps wiser words of anyone more experienced in the matter and by the weightier authority and more scholarly prudence of other bishops, and also by councils, if something in them perhaps has deviated from the truth; and that even councils held in particular regions or provinces must give way without quibbling (sine ullis ambagibus cedere) to the authority of plenary councils of the whole Christian world;

No interpretation of scripture is correct interpretation other than that of the single deciding authority of the whole Christian world.

and that even the earlier plenary councils are often (saepe) corrected (emendari) by later ones, if as a result of practical experience (cum aliquo experimento rerum) something that was closed is opened, something that was hidden has become known?"

While scripture contains all truth (in it’s arena) we will be finding more depth in those truths through time until Jesus comes.

reference: Augustine, De baptismo contra Donatistas Book III, Ch. 2

So, all together:
In the bible we will find only truth, and more and more truth, until Jesus comes, which will be shown to be truth by the deciding authority of the whole Christian world (the magisterium).

Does that sound like it supports “sola scriptura”? (No.)

 

[Teflon93]

That’s an extremely important point you made about the grammar of the quote, Teflon.

You wrote some very nice posts on that page, I think .

Thank you—you’re very kind.

 

[jfoges]

Like Sola Scriptura itself the idea that Augustine supported Sola Scripturu can only be arrived at by personal interpretation of a few selected quotes. How can one reconcile Augusines supposed support of Sola Scripture up with the following:

“I should not believe the Gospel except as moved by the AUTHORITY of the CATHOLIC CHURCH.”
Against the Letter of Mani 5,6, 397 A.D.

“But in regard to those observances which we carefully attend and which the whole world keeps, and which derive not from Scripture BUT FROM TRADITION, we are given to understand that they are recommended and ordained to be kept either by the Apostles themselves or by plenary COUNCILS, THE AUTHORITY OF WHICH IS QUITE VITAL TO THE CHURCH.”
Letter of Augustine to Januarius 54,1,1, 400 A.D.

“I believe that this practice comes from apostolic tradition, just as so many other practices NOT FOUND IN THEIR WRITINGS nor in the councils of their successors, but which, because they are kept by the whole Church everywhere, are believed to have been commended and handed down by the Apostles themselves.”
St. Augustine, Baptism 1,12,20, 400 A.D.

“What they found in the Church they kept; what they learned, they taught; what they received from the fathers, they handed on to the sons.”
St. Augustine, Against Julian, 2,10,33, 421 A.D.

“Since by Christ’s favor we are CATHOLIC Christians:”
St. Augustine, Letter to Vitalis, 217,5,16, 427 A.D.

“By the same word, by the same Sacrament you were born, but you will not come to the same inheritance of eternal life, unless you return to the CATHOLIC CHURCH.”
St. Augustine, Sermons, 3, 391 A.D.

“This Church is holy, the one Church, the true Church, the Catholic Church, fighting as she does against all heresies. She can fight, but she cannot be beaten. All heresies are expelled from her, like the useless loppings pruned from a vine. She remains fixed in her root, in her vine, in her love. The gates of hell shall NOT conquer her.”
St. Augustine, Sermon to Catechumens, on the Creed, 6,14, 395 A.D

None of these quotes support the infallibility of the Pope and bishops, because that was not believed by Augustine or anyone in his generation.

By the way, the word Magisterium is a 19th century invention.

 

[estesbob]

None of these quotes support the infallibility of the Pope and bishops, because that was not believed by Augustine or anyone in his generation.

By the way, the word Magisterium is a 19th century invention.

Excuse me-we were discssing whether Augustine beleived in Sola Scriptura. From these quotes it is obvious he did not.

 

[jfoges]

Excuse me-we were discssing whether Augustine beleived in Sola Scriptura. From these quotes it is obvious he did not.

You are excused Bob. Maybe that’s what you were discussing, but it isn’t what i was discussing. Have fun with your discussion.

 

[estesbob]

You are excused Bob. Maybe that’s what you were discussing, but it isn’t what i was discussing. Have fun with your discussion.

LOL- What is the title of this thread???

 

[jfoges]

LOL- What is the title of this thread???

I’m talking about the content of the posts, not the title of the thread.