But not effort. Effort doesn’t save you. Your faith in Christ saves you. If you wish to say being like Christ is a work, then go right ahead and say it, but it is really faithfulness in Christ. We all fall short of the grace of God. This is why we need Christ andhis sacrifice on the cross. Even Mary needed it.
Quite serious. And why is it sad to you? Do you think Catholics are saddened by the fact that we cannot proclaim salvation for ourselves? Faithful Catholics are not. So…don’t be sad for us, OK? It is a wasted emotion on your part. Save your sadness for someone who truly needs it. With all due respect and intended chartity, perhaps spend some time reflecting on the implied arrogance on your part in proclaiming **for yourself **what NO Christian before the 16th Century EVER proclaimed for themselves. Not ONE. And you can say you’re only proclaiming what God already gave you, but I would just then have to refer you to 1Cor10:12…the audience of which were professed, believing Christians.
Jesus Christ is the Head of The Church. By following the precepts of His Church, which follows His teachings, we follow Him, and Him alone. Don’t get petty with the Catholics-don’t-follow-Christ argument. It’s unfounded and ludicrous, and frankly, insulting.
Sure…that’s HOW we are saved. It’s the METHOD BY WHICH we are saved. But our actions (our response, our “yes”, our life-long obedience, repentance…etc) determines WHETHER we are saved OR NOT.
Show me anywhere where I have even ALLUDED to the fact that it is not a free gift from God. Must I repeat…Catholics KNOW salvation is a GIFT.
Oh please. Don’t use this verse to suggest a belief-only theology. Matthew 18 refers to the “humility” of a child, in opposition to the sinful pride that many are prone to. What makes you think that a child has the capacity to believe in something, but doesn’t have the capacity to obey? Rubbish. My 3 yr old girl believes in Santa Claus. She ALSO knows the rule “you better be good for goodness sake”. She is already demonstrating the capacity to believe AND obey. Isn’t childhood where we FIRST learn to be obedient? The teaching here is far from “just believe, but don’t worry about obeying”.
Said it two dozen times. If we can earn the pre-offered candy, we can earn the pre-offered salvation. Look, what we have here is a disconnect on this word “earn” which can mean two different things. So let’s stop using that word. Instead, lets use the word “receive”, because this is what “earn” means to a Catholic. We are the recipients of the gift of salvation. It is referred to sometimes as “earn” because the receipt of this gift is CONDITIONAL. Earn implies condition. Certainly you wouldn’t argue with the conditional nature of this gift, would you? In the simplest sense, the condition is “belief”. It’s more than that, actually, but let’s keep it simple. Do you agree with this condition? I think you must, because otherwise, unbelievers are saved. OK, so all I’m saying is that “earn” is synonymous with compliance with this condition. Just like saying to little Timmy, “ok good Timmy, you complied with my condition for giving you candy. Here you go…you earned it”. That’s a valid (dictionary based) use of the word “earn”. But I’m getting the feeling that even if you agree with this usage of the term, you still don’t think that our compliance does anything for us. I certainly hope you don’t believe that.
You are suggesting that being faithful is EFFORTLESS. Name one person who would ever say that. I know you don’t believe that. Having (and keeping) faith takes tremendous effort, and so in that sense, effort certainly DOES save us (or better said…DOES gain for us the gift of God’s salvation). And by the way, faithfulness=effort=work. Don’t be afraid of this. It really isn’t a threat to your Christian journey. It amplifies it. It explains it more completely. It gives you a vision of your walk with Christ. And yes, we all certainly do fall short of the grace of God, and were in desperate need of Christ’s sacrifice. You’re sounding like a Catholic again. No offense.
Hi- or what about these!?
Most Catholics would agree to the first part.
but as osas logic goes, Why would you bother doing those things (unless you just wanted to…) if you are saved regardless??? I mean, why not go out and party and sin up a storm… so illogical…
how did you find Her? Were you raised in any religion. Was that reliigon anti-Catholic?
that is SO not true… for one thing, i was very young and uncatechized when i believed (fell for) osas…
thank you…Didn’t distracted make it clear that some sort of examination DID happen? Why do you say “start”?
if you will read my OP, i said that that was NOT the only thing…I kind of have to go with allischalmers for two reasons. First time for everything
Two, and most important though, if a person is going to screw up their life because they think they are going to heaven anyway…that speaks more about the person’s discernment and many other factors. Unless someone specifically is telling you to sin, which is not the case, it does sound like a cop out.
I would say so in the other case too. When I was a Baptist, I heard all about how Catholics could sin all they want and go to confession and be fine. IF such a person exists anywhere in the entire world, I would not now seriously entertain the notion that it is their Catholic faith, or twisted version of faith, responsible for their actions but their own personal choices. In other words, yeah, I heard no sin could seperate us from Christ but I never took that to mean do anything.
Education, parenting, social groups, teachers, friends, etc all reinforced or taught values, it was not just the folks at church…isolating one cause for behavior seems overly simplistic.
sounds like Presbyterianism…
Fortunate enough that the lady in my life was a cradle Catholic. I was born into a nominal, non-practicing Christian family (mostly Episcopalian). Lived with my mom. My Dad and stepmom soon became Bible-only fundamentalists, and Southern Baptist with anti-Catholic tendencies.
And there you have it.
What you’re espousing above regarding taking responsibility for how you live (in accordance with God’s Holy Word) is an example of faith and works… faith working in love, which is very Catholic. Congratulations.
I agree, that sounds like Presbyterianism. I was one for 20 years, and fell very hard into several sinful and harmful behavior pretty young (started about 11 years old). I felt that since my behavior was preordered (that God had it all planned out in advance), I didn’t really try too hard to change it. I wanted to stop, because I was really miserable, but it wasn’t until I started studying Catholicism when I was 16 or 17 was I finally able to make great strides in at the very least lessening the behaviors. The more I was able to get my head wrapped around that I could have the power to stop sinning if only I asked for help was I finally able to cut a few out completely, and the other ones I strugle with mostly on occasion.
That is an awesome story Steve! That sounds sort of similar to what happened to me. I atteneded Fundamentalist services for a year and a half, and the pastor there was really anti-Catholic, and at least every other sermon would be a “Catholic-bashing” session. After the first month, I started studying Catholicism. It took me 5 years to finally receive Confirmation, but I finally did May of last year. I have a feeling that the preacher would be pretty mad if he knew that his sermons helped lead me to Catholic Church.
thanks for the info… always good to know something about those who post here…