Did Catholics add 7 books to Bible in 1546?

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Actually, it was the Protestants who removed them in the 18th century. Prior to that they were in every Protestant bible. So the question really is, why did the protestants remove these books which were in every bible from the time of for nearly 2000 years?
Now, let’s be fair to our Christian brothers. Although they had them in their bibles, they didn’t list them as inspired works, did they? I thought they listed them as profitable but not Scriptural. If that is true, then we shouldn’t mislead someone by saying they were in the bibles prior to this time.
 
Now, let’s be fair to our Christian brothers. Although they had them in their bibles, they didn’t list them as inspired works, did they? I thought they listed them as profitable but not Scriptural. If that is true, then we shouldn’t mislead someone by saying they were in the bibles prior to this time.
The Deuterocanonical books were in the original King James Bible but Martin Luther did not considered them inspired. However, when you say “their Bible” you mean the Protestant Bible. We are talking about THE Bible which existed before the Reformation. The cannon of scripture were determined by a council of bishops in the late 4th century and it included the Deuterocanonical books.

Therefore, these books were in THE Bible and considered inspired prior to the Reformation. The original Gutenberg bible included the Deuterocanonical books also.
 
Therefore, these books were in THE Bible and considered inspired prior to the Reformation. The original Gutenberg bible included the Deuterocanonical books also.
I know that, mo.

It’s just that we as Catholics should not mislead people by telling them that our Christian brothers had the Deuterocanonicals in their bible but then removed it, for that allows the listener to assume they were considered inspired by the Protestants and then removed. Deliberately misleading someone, to me, is equal to lying to them.
 
The REAL bottom line is if you could go into a **Jewish temple **in Jesus’ day and go check out the scrolls of scripture there you would have found the deuterocanonical books!

Jesus didn’t throw them out! if He didn’t throw them out why should we listen to anybody that thinks they should be thrown out?!

His Church didn’t believe they should be thrown out.

That’s good enough for me!
I am unaware of any listing of the books laid up in the temple that includes the deuterocanonical. Can you give me a source for this?

We know Josephus lists the OT books at either 22 or 24, which matches the Hebrew OT or Protestant OT canon we have today although the books were grouped differently. We also know he says at least in three different writing that the scriptures were laid up in the temple. Although he doesn’t mention which books were laid up outside of the Torah, it’s a fact that he give no indication that the deuterocanonical books were ever given such an honor.

In later writings such as the mishna and talmud we do find the Hebrew canon listed as being stored in the temple and no mention is given the the deuterocanonical books being included in this list.
 
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Thaddeus:
This proves that the 7 books missing in the Protestant Bible (the other 6 books are also online) were TAKEN OUT by Luther, not added in by the Pope at Trent.
a) Prior to the Council of Trent (1545 AD), and even for a couple of centuries after it, it was not uncommon for non-canonical books to be included in the Bible;

b) Protestant Christianity defined the Old Testament to be those works which were accepted by the Council of Jamnia in 90 AD as Canonical;

c) The Council of Trent defined as Canonical books which were in the LXX, even though there were no extent Hebrew of Aramaic manuscripts of some of that material;

d) If you want to get technical, the Council of Trent removed three books from the Bible;

e) If you are going to credit Luther with removing books from the Bible, list the one that he is responsible for removing, in 1534 AD. (Epistle to the Laodocians.)

f) The difference between the Roman Catholic Canon (1545 AD), and the Anglican Canon (1549 AD) is the acceptance or rejection of:
  • Prayer of Manassas;
  • 1 Esdras;
  • 2 Esdras;
g) The difference between the Protestant Canon and the Roman Catholic Canon is the inclusion or exclusion of:
  • Tobit;
  • Judith;
  • 1 Maccabees;
  • 2 Maccabees;
  • Wisdom;
  • Ecclesiasticus;
  • Baroch;
  • The Epistle of Jeremy;
  • The Prayer of Azariah/The Song of the Three Young Men;
  • Bel and the Dragon;
  • The Story of Susanna;
  • GreekEsther;
xan

jonathon
 
Here is an image of the 1rst book of Macabees in the Gutenberg bible, published a century before Luther was born. This proves that the 7 books missing in the Protestant Bible (the other 6 books are also online) were TAKEN OUT by Luther, not added in by the Pope at Trent.

hrc.utexas.edu/exhibitions/permanent/gutenberg/web/pgsdbl560/2_333334_161v162r.html
Actually, they were in all Protestant bibles and were not actually removed from Protestant bibles until the 19th century, around 1930, I believe.

Grace and peace.
 
Now, let’s be fair to our Christian brothers. Although they had them in their bibles, they didn’t list them as inspired works, did they? I thought they listed them as profitable but not Scriptural. If that is true, then we shouldn’t mislead someone by saying they were in the bibles prior to this time.
I don’t know if you have read what he wrote, in case you haven’t you, and others, might be interested to read what this Protestant pastor has to say.🙂
 
I don’t know if you have read what he wrote, in case you haven’t you, and others, might be interested to read what this Protestant pastor has to say.🙂
I’m not sure how true this is. It would be interesting to know if this is an Urban Legend, because that’s what it smacks of.
 
The Sadducees only believed the 5 books of the Law were inspired.
I had understood the same thing but after reading FF Bruce and Beckwith on the canon, I am not so sure that is the case anymore.
Beckwith:
One important and neglected fact with regard to the canon, which was nevertheless pointed out by Moses Stuart in the middle of the last century, has just been noted. Another, to which the same discerning writer drew attention, is the conservative tendency which must have resulted from the rivalry between the Pharisees, Sadducees and Essenes. Any attempt to add to the canon, or to take away from it, by one of these groups, would almost certainly have been resisted by one or both of the others, and even if the resistance had been unsuccessful, the controversy involved might never have been appeased, and could be expected to have left its mark on history.115 We know that the Sadducees normally found it necessary to conform, in practice, to Pharisaic decisions,116 but the Essenes, who lived a separate life, were not similarly bound, and it is probably significant that there is no denunciation in Essene literature of acts of interference with the canon.117 The rabbinical literature records Pharisaic decisions that certain books were canonical and certain were not,118 but it is clear that some of these decisions (notably that regarding the gospels in Tos. Yadaim 2.13) were simply confirmations of the status quo, and it may be that all of them were. The decision against ‘the books of the minim’ (heretics or sectaries, usually Jewish) in the same place, and Rabbi Akiba’s ban on the reading of ‘the outside books’ in M. Sanhedrin 10.1, may partly have been directed against the apocalypses cherished by the Essenes; yet even the Essenes themselves did not thrust these books forward, as suitable to become part of the public canon, but seem to have reserved them mainly for the privileged circles in which they claimed that they had been handed down from antiquity (1 En. 82.1–3; Jub. 45:16; Josephus, War 2.8.6f, or 2.136, 142).
cont…
 
Beckwith:
Whether they would have acted differently if they had become the prevailing Jewish school and had gained permanent control of the Temple, we do not know, but they never did.119 As things really were, the only difficulty which we know (or rather infer) that the Essenes had with the public canon used by other Jews relates to the Book of Esther.120

However, the two major divergences on the canon, that have been supposed in the past to have separated the Jewish schools, do not concern the canon of the Essenes but the additional books of the so-called Alexandrian canon, and the alleged agreement of the Sadducees with the canon of the Samaritans. Now that the first of these supposed divergences has been refuted by A. C. Sundberg, in his book The Old Testament of the Early Church, there is less reason to spend time on it here, though we will need to give space to his arguments in chapter eight. The second of the supposed divergences, however, that concerning the Sadducees, is best dealt with at once. The following arguments have been used to demonstrate it:
(i) The Sadducees rejected belief in the resurrection, which is clearly taught or implied in the Prophets and Hagiographa (notably in Isa. 26:19, Ezek. 37:1–14 and Dan. 12:2), so their canon must have consisted of the Pentateuch alone. However, Hippolytus tells us that they explained references to the resurrection in a non-literal manner, as referring to the children whom one leaves behind when one dies (Refutation 9.29), so the conclusion does not follow. It could equally well be argued that, since the Sadducees rejected belief in angels (which appear in Gen. 19:1, 15; 28:12; 32:1 etc.), the Pentateuch cannot have been in their canon either.
(ii) When Jesus is in controversy with the Sadducees, he answers their argument against the resurrection by referring to the Pentateuch (Mark 12:18–27 etc.), though he could much more readily have answered it from the other sections of the canon, had the Sadducees accepted these. However, the Pentateuch was the basic section of the canon, and as the Sadducees had drawn their argument against the resurrection from the Pentateuch, Jesus draws his counter-argument from the same source (verses 19, 26).121 N. R. M. de Lange remarks that the rabbis also normally use the Pentateuch, not the Prophets or Hagiographa, to prove the resurrection.122
(iii) According to Josephus (Ant. 18.1.4, or 18.16), the Sadducees ‘own no observance of any sort apart from the Laws’, i.e. the Pentateuch. However, as the following words hint, and as the more or less parallel account of the Sadducees in Ant. 13.10.6, or 13.297, explicitly states, the contrast is not between the Laws of Moses and the other books of the canon but between the Laws of Moses and oral tradition. Josephus elsewhere states that ‘all Jews’, presumably including the Sadducees, accept the 22 books of the canon (Against Apion 1.8, or 1.39–43).
(iv) Many of the Fathers, the earliest among them being Hippolytus (Refutation 9.29) and Origen (Against Celsus 1.49; Commentary on Matthew 17.35f.), definitely affirm that the Sadducean canon consists simply of the Pentateuch. Since Hippolytus and Origen are two of the Fathers most distinguished for knowledge of Judaism, and wrote not long after the Sadducees disappeared from Jewish history, their statements should not be lightly rejected, as due simply to an ignorant confusion between the Sadducees and the Samaritans, or some similar cause. This final argument, therefore, does seem to have considerable force.
cont…
 
b) Protestant Christianity defined the Old Testament to be those works which were accepted by the Council of Jamnia in 90 AD as Canonical;
The Council of Jamnia failed to include the entire New Testament in the Bible, so I’m not sure why that council has any validity with Christians.

The canon of the new, and old testaments for Christians was first decided on for Christians in the 4th Century. First by Pope Damasus I at the Council of Rome in 382, and then approved by the Councils of Carthage and Hippo in 393 and 397 AD. The Canon was never questioned by Christians for 1100 years, until Luther came along and decided to remove 7 (almost 9 - James and Revelation were almost removed by him) books of the bible that didn’t agree with his personal theology.

All of the 7 books were in the protestant bibles in a separate section, I believe, for useful reading, but not considered to be inspired. Gutenberg, a century before Luther, included no such caveat in the complete Gutenberg bible.
 
Beckwith:
However, before drawing conclusions from what these Fathers say, we must consider the evidence on the other side, which is as follows:
(a) The Sadducees did not have the same motives as the Samaritans for rejecting the Prophets and Hagiographa. According to one view, the Samaritans accepted the Pentateuch alone because, at the early period when they had separated from the Jews, the Jewish canon had likewise contained nothing but the Pentateuch: we shall see on pp. 128–37 that there probably never was such a period, but even if there had been, it would not have affected the Sadducees, who had not separated from the other Jews, like the Samaritans. The more probable view is that the Samaritans accepted only the Pentateuch because the Prophets and Hagiographa support the Jerusalem Temple and denounce the sins of Ephraim: but such considerations would rather have recommended these books to the Sadducees.
(b) Josephus’s works list the distinguishing tenets of the three great Jewish schools,123 and the rabbinical literature mentions a great many of the points at issue between the Pharisees and Sadducees,124 but neither source ever suggests that the Sadducees rejected the Prophets and Hagiographa. On the contrary, as Jean Le Moyne points out,125 one of the later midrashim, which Solomon Buber calls Tanhuma C (i.e. the ‘printed Tanhuma’), seems to imply the opposite, stating that
‘The Sadducees deny the resurrection and say, “As the cloud disperses and passes away, so he who descends to Sheol shall not come up any more” (Job 7:9).’
(c) Most of the high priests after John Hyrcanus were Sadducees, and this is certainly true of those of the family of Boethus, who were high priests during the latter part of Herod the Great’s reign (if it was they who gave the Sadducees their alternative name of Boethusians); and it is also true of Caiaphas, as is indicated by Acts 4:6; 5:17. The same is the case with the majority of the leading priests who surrounded the high priest.126 Yet, when speaking of Herod’s last years, one of the gospels represents the chief priests, together with the scribes, as expecting the ‘Christ’ (anointed one) or ‘Son of David’, who is foretold under the former title in Isa. 61:1; Ps. 2:2; Dan. 9:25, and under the latter in 2 Sam. 7:8–16; Pss. 89:3f., 28–37; 132:10–12, 17; 1 Chron. 17:7–14, but not in the Pentateuch under either; it further represents them as quoting Mic. 5:2 to show where the Christ would be born; and then, in the time of Caiaphas, it depicts them as resenting the application of the title ‘Son of David’ to Jesus (Matt. 2:4–6; 21:15f.). Even more strikingly, the first two gospels both represent the high priest Caiaphas as adjuring Jesus to say whether he is the ‘Christ’, and as accusing him of blasphemy as soon as he admits it (Matt. 26:63–6; Mark 14:61–4). How could this be, if the Sadducees rejected the Prophets and Hagiographa?
(d) The Sadducees had possession of the Temple, yet we saw on pp. 82–5 that the Scriptures laid up in the Temple included more than the Pentateuch. It is true that in their public actions the Sadducees usually had to fall in with Pharisaic views, because of the pressure of public opinion, but this hardly means that the chief priests would have had to let the Pharisees lay up new Scriptures in the Temple, and still less that the high priest would have had to let them read these Scriptures to him throughout the night preceding the Day of Atonement! Such attempts would probably have resulted in open disputes, and the memory of them would have been one of the constant grievances of the high-priestly families. It seems more probable that the Scriptures in question were already in the Temple before the Sadducees gained control of it in the late second century bc, and, if they were already there so early, that they were part of the agreed common inheritance of both schools of thought.
cont…
 
Beckwith:
Supposing, however, that the Sadducees accepted the Prophets and Hagiographa, as these four arguments suggest, why do Hippolytus and Origen say that they did not? No certain answer can be given, but the likeliest seems to be that the Sadducees had joined up with the Samaritans in the second or early third century ad, not long before the time of Hippolytus and Origen, and as a result had adopted, or had had attributed to them, Samaritan tenets which they had not previously held. The two groups had long held certain tenets in common, suggesting influence from one side or the other at a formative period in the past,127 so, when the Sadducees lost their only centre of influence among the Jews through the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple, it was reasonable that they should seek a home among the Samaritans. In the rabbinical literature, indications of Sadducean activity die out in the mid second century,128 so the merger would have taken place between then and the writing of Hippolytus’s Refutation, a few decades into the third century. Actual evidence for this hypothesis is not entirely lacking. For Hippolytus does not stop short at attributing Samaritan beliefs to the Sadducees—he completely identifies the two groups, giving no separate account of the Samaritans, and stating that the Sadducees live mainly round Samaria (Refutation 9.29). Similarly, pseudo-Tertullian’s third-century appendix to Tertullian’s De Praescriptione 45 describes the Sadducees as an offshoot of the Dositheans, the main divergent sect among the Samaritans, perhaps indicating that by his time they were a Samaritan rather than a Jewish group; and other Fathers, such as Epiphanius, repeat this. Nor is Samaritan testimony wanting on the matter, for in the Samaritan chronicle written in Arabic in the fourteenth century by Abu al-Fath it is stated that the subdivisions of the Dositheans included some who pretended to be Sadducees, and also an elder named Zadok (the name from which the title ‘Sadducee’ is usually derived).129

It seems, therefore, that for as long as the Temple stood there was no essential disagreement among the different Jewish schools about the public canon. And if that was so, the very rivalry between the schools must have been one of the main factors responsible. This rivalry, between Pharisees, Sadducees and Essenes, had first become important around the time of the high-priesthood of Jonathan Maccabaeus (152–142 bc), as a statement to that effect by Josephus (Ant. 13.5.9, or 13.171–3) and other evidence indicates.130 From then onwards it is likely, in view of the intensity of the rivalry, that the canon remained unaltered until after the suppression of the first Jewish revolt and the destruction of the Temple in ad 70, as a result of which events the Essenes and Sadducees lost most of their influence, and the Temple Scriptures were dispersed. Any literature, consequently, which is referred to as canonical by Pharisaic or Essene writers, or both, during the period of just over two centuries preceding the destruction, was probably canonical throughout the period for all three schools; and though, when the period had ended, it would have been possible for the triumphant Pharisees to have added further books to the canon, they would hardly have thought such action appropriate after the canon had remained unchanged for so long. Both their traditionalism and their continuing veneration for the Temple would have restrained them.131 Certainly, they are not likely to have celebrated their triumph by making concessions to Essenism, and it follows that any book included in the later form of the Pharisaic canon, which is also reckoned canonical by Essene writers of the Temple period, is a probable part of the common heritage of both schools, dating back to the time before their longstanding rivalry began.132
The Jewish Cano
Beckwith, Roger T.: The Old Testament Canon of the New Testament Church and Its Background in Early Judaism. London : SPCK, 1985, S. 86
 
The canon of the new, and old testaments for Christians was first decided on for Christians in the 4th Century. First by Pope Damasus I at the Council of Rome in 382, and then approved by the Councils of Carthage and Hippo in 393 and 397 AD. The Canon was never questioned by Christians for 1100 years, until Luther came along and decided to remove 7 (almost 9 - James and Revelation were almost removed by him) books of the bible that didn’t agree with his personal theology.
The councils of Carthage, Hippo, and Rome were not ecumenical and therefore not universal. As newadvent.org says "The Tridentine decrees from which the above list is extracted was the first infallible and effectually promulgated pronouncement on the Canon, addressed to the Church Universal."

The larger canon that your church accepts was most certainly questioned by Christians. Again from newadvent.org:
Catholic Encyclopedia:
D. THE CANON OF THE OLD TESTAMENT FROM THE MIDDLE OF THE FIFTH TO THE CLOSE OF THE SEVENTH CENTURY

This period exhibits a curious exchange of opinions between the West and the East, while ecclesiastical usage remained unchanged, at least in the Latin Church. During this intermediate age the use of St. Jerome’s new version of the Old Testament (the Vulgate) became widespread in the Occident. **With its text went Jerome’s prefaces disparaging the deuterocanonicals, and under the influence of his authority the West began to distrust these and to show the first symptoms of a current hostile to their canonicity. **On the other hand, the Oriental Church imported a Western authority which had canonized the disputed books, viz., the decree of Carthage, and from this time there is an increasing tendency among the Greeks to place the deuteros on the same level with the others–a tendency, however, due more to forgetfulness of the old distinction than to deference to the Council of Carthage.

E. THE CANON OF THE OLD TESTAMENT DURING THE MIDDLE AGES

The Latin Church

In the Latin Church, all through the Middle Ages we find evidence of hesitation about the character of the deuterocanonicals. There is a current friendly to them, another one distinctly unfavourable to their authority and sacredness, while wavering between the two are a number of writers whose veneration for these books is tempered by some perplexity as to their exact standing, and among those we note St. Thomas Aquinas. **Few are found to unequivocally acknowledge their canonicity. The prevailing attitude of Western medieval authors is substantially that of the Greek Fathers. **The chief cause of this phenomenon in the West is to be sought in the influence, direct and indirect, of St. Jerome’s depreciating Prologus. The compilatory “Glossa Ordinaria” was widely read and highly esteemed as a treasury of sacred learning during the Middle Ages; it embodied the prefaces in which the Doctor of Bethlehem had written in terms derogatory to the deuteros, and thus perpetuated and diffused his unfriendly opinion.
Your claim that “The Canon was never questioned by Christians for 1100 years” is simply not true. Even at the time of the reformation and Trent we find cardinals (Cajetan and Ximenes) who reject the deuterocanonical books and at the Council of Trent we find cardinals/bishops (more than a small minority) voting against including them in the canon.
 
NOTICE: Two Sacred Scripture threads on the Deuterocanonical books were merged.
 
You are correct- Some Christians did question the 7 books. After all, they weren’t written in Hebrew (but in Greek), they were written after the time of Ezra), and only the Jews in Alexandria (Greek Speaking Jews) accepted them as scriptural. None of which matters to Christians, of course, since none of the NT was written in Hebrew, was certainly written after the time of Ezra, and who cares which books non-Christians (Jews) accept.

Jerome was a great Biblical Scholar as was Aquinas, but they were not part of the magesterium. Their concerns were duly noted by the universal church leaders of the time, but rejected. Since the Catholic Church was the only Christian Church around until 1054 (Orthodox split), all Catholic Church councils, including those at Rome, Hippo, and Carthage, were as ecuminical as the Council of Jerusalem in Acts.

Trent certainly codified the books as infallible canon, for sure, as a response to Luther, but before that, since the canon was never in question by the Magesterium, it didn’t need to addressed in such an “official way”, just like marriage between a man and wife being the only official marriage needs to be addressed today. Until homosexual marriage came out of the blue, who would have ever thought that traditional marriage would have to be enshrined in law?
 
No, not all of your church councils are considered ecumenical. See the following article at the Catholic Encyclopedia.

newadvent.org/cathen/04423f.htm
But pwftr, you are neglecting something. There local synods conclusion on the canons were approved by the Pope at the time.

So, yes, there were still questions by people, you listed a few, but there was no need to put the Church’s official “Stamp of Aprroval” over the Canon until our good Luther and the boys tried to question it.

So, pwrflt, it would seem that you are now very well equipped to refute anyone’s accusation that the Church added any books to the Bible at Trent.

Good job!!!
 
Yes.

A synod is a gathering of local bishops

Hippo & Carthage were synods not councils.

Synods do not have the same weight and authority as a council (thank Heaven)
But, if their conclusions receive the approval of the Pope, then I would assume they have every bit as much weight and authority as a council.

This is, I believe, what happened in regards to Hippo and Carthage.
 
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