Did Christ advocate violence?

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Christ was the new covenant and he specifically addressed the Old Testament verses speaking of “an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.”

**Mat 5:38 You have heard that it hath been said: An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.
Mat 5:39 But I say to you not to resist evil: but if one strike thee on thy right cheek, turn to him also the other: **
I believe that I already addressed that. If one were to obey the old law and return a slap with a slap to a Roman, then that person could be charged with treason and put to death. Jesus taught his followers a practical way of dealing with a common problem by offering the other side of their face. The natural response would be to strike again - with the back of the hand!

If the citizen yielded to the temptation to strike again with the back of the hand or the closed fist, then he had offered a challenge to fight as an equal. Now the slave (or non-roman) could retaliate without fear of being condemned to death for mutiny.
 
And if Jesus did not mean a physical sword, why did He mix it in with other physical items in that passage? That’s rather confusing ESPECIALLY if He didn’t bother to explain it. Again, something that a “great teacher” would not do.

And, again, if Jesus did not mean a physical sword, then what does this passage mean? * … Sell your coat and buy a sword … * – what does that mean if it isn’t referring to physical items? Sell our coat and but what?

Nope. Jesus was referring to physical weapons. Anyone who says otherwise is mistaken because it raises too many issues which can not be explained away. NONE of these issues come up if one takes the position that Jesus was talking about actual swords.
Did you read what the Saints/Church Doctors wrote referencing the verses? I’m afraid, based on their writings, I respectfully disagree that Christ was talking about actual swords for the purposes of using violence to respond to violence. Some of Saints/Church Doctors, addressed the other physical items in the passage.
 
I believe that I already addressed that. If one were to obey the old law and return a slap with a slap to a Roman, then that person could be charged with treason and put to death. Jesus taught his followers a practical way of dealing with a common problem by offering the other side of their face. The natural response would be to strike again - with the back of the hand!

If the citizen yielded to the temptation to strike again with the back of the hand or the closed fist, then he had offered a challenge to fight as an equal. Now the slave (or non-roman) could retaliate without fear of being condemned to death for mutiny.
Yes, I responded to you addressing that in my post #16. I also provided information on the wording from 10 versions of the Bible, including the Greek which when translated excluded the word slap. The only version of the Bible to use the word “slap” was the modernized, New Jerusalem Bible. Because of the translations, and the writings of the Saints/Church Doctors, I disageed with Christ telling them to turn the cheek for the purposes of possibly turning an insulting blow into an opportunity to respond to violence with violence.
 
Did you read what the Saints/Church Doctors wrote referencing the verses? I’m afraid, based on their writings, I respectfully disagree that Christ was talking about actual swords for the purposes of using violence to respond to violence. Some of Saints/Church Doctors, addressed the other physical items in the passage.
Please explain for me (*not with quotes but *) in simple terms …

  • *]All of the other items (walking stick, sandals, etc.) represent REAL items. If the sword does not represent a real item, then what are we suppose to sell our coats to buy? Jesus is commanding them to sell their coats and buy it if they don’t have it. What are they suppose to buy? Your quotes do not address that.

    *]Why does scripture tells us that Jesus explained EVERYTHING to His Apostles and we always see that explanation EXCEPT in this one case? Just look at today’s gospel.

    The Jews misunderstood when Jesus said that He would rebuild the temple in 3 days. But what Jesus actually meant was the temple of His body. THAT is clearly pointed out in that passage.

    Why would this sword passage be the only exception in all of the Gospels? That just doesn’t make sense.

    *]The fact that no further explanation is given is the most common arguement given to the protestants that the Eucharist is the REAL Body of Christ – Jesus always explained everything to His Apostles afterwards and that explanation is found in that passage. The fact that Jesus didn’t further explain that He was talking symbolicly, is proof that He the Eucharist is His REAL body and not a SYMBOL of His Body.

    If you take the position that Jesus did not explain the “sword thing”, then you just lost one of your main arguments regarding the Eucharist because the “sword thing” would show that there were exceptions.

    You can’t have it both ways.

    *]Jesus was preparing His apostles to carry on His message to the rest of the world. Why would He not clarify what He really meant? They showed Him two swords. If that was incorrect, then it would have been clear to Jesus that they did not understand. To ensure that His correct message was passed on to the rest of the world would you expect the “Great Teacher” to explain it to them?

    *]These passages were written many years later after the Holy Spirit had opened the minds of the Apostles to the message of the gospel. When writing down this account, why didn’t they clarify this point ESPECIALLY when they clarified every other point that Jesus had made.

    … I await your reply to these specific questions. Thank you and goog night.
 
I suppose it doesn’t really matter who’s got the better answers in this debate. It up to each individual to determine for himself what he thinks is right and I’m sure there are many peace lovers in this world that would rather fight without a sword. 👍
 
I suppose it doesn’t really matter who’s got the better answers in this debate. It up to each individual to determine for himself what he thinks is right and I’m sure there are many peace lovers in this world that would rather fight without a sword. 👍
:slapfight:
 
Please explain for me (*not with quotes but *) in simple terms …

  • *]All of the other items (walking stick, sandals, etc.) represent REAL items. If the sword does not represent a real item, then what are we suppose to sell our coats to buy? Jesus is commanding them to sell their coats and buy it if they don’t have it. What are they suppose to buy? Your quotes do not address that.

  • The actual quote states, sell his garment. I am not the theologian as were the Saints and Church Doctors, that’s why I turn to their interpretation of scriptures over my own personal interpretation.
    Why does scripture tells us that Jesus explained EVERYTHING to His Apostles and we always see that explanation EXCEPT in this one case? Just look at today’s gospel.
    This furnishes the meaning of his answer to their simplicity in 38: ‘It is enough’. He does not mean that two swords are enough for their protection, but, seeing that they have not understood him, he says with a smile, ‘That would be enough for what I meant’. Some think, less probably, that he answers abruptly to change the subject which they have misunderstood: ‘Enough of that’.
    You can’t have it both ways.
    I’m not trying to have it both ways. As I stated above, I submit my understanding to more qualified Catholic theologians over my own personal interpretation.
    Jesus was preparing His apostles to carry on His message to the rest of the world. Why would He not clarify what He really meant? They showed Him two swords. If that was incorrect, then it would have been clear to Jesus that they did not understand. To ensure that His correct message was passed on to the rest of the world would you expect the “Great Teacher” to explain it to them?
    These passages were written many years later after the Holy Spirit had opened the minds of the Apostles to the message of the gospel. When writing down this account, why didn’t they clarify this point ESPECIALLY when they clarified every other point that Jesus had made.
    … I await your reply to these specific questions. Thank you and goog night.

    I’ve read your post and offered you the writings of the early Church fathers (Saints and Church Doctors) that addressed every question you’ve brought up in this most recent post. If you don’t accept their explanation of the scriptures, you’re not going to accept mine as I base my interpretation on the Catechism, early Church fathers and Church Doctors, and the Catholic commentaries. When one doesn’t reference specific scriptures, say the Catechism, I rely on the early Church fathers and Church Doctors, and Catholic commentaries.
 
But that’s just it – your quotes do not address ANY of the questions that I have asked. They say … This furnishes the meaning of his answer to their simplicity in 38: ‘It is enough’. He does not mean that two swords are enough for their protection, but, seeing that they have not understood him, he says with a smile, 'That would be enough for what I meant’. Some think, less probably, that he answers abruptly to change the subject which they have misunderstood: ‘Enough of that’. … but why would Jesus not explain to them what He really meant when He was entrusting them to carry His message out to the rest of the world? Why does scripture say that Jesus explained everything to them when in this case he apparently didn’t? What does it mean to sell your garment in order to buy a sword? Why didn’t the author of this book provide the correct meaning of this passage when the gospel was being written down and after the Holy Spirit had open their minds to the true meaning? Why is this the only exception in all of the gospels where a symbolic meaning is not explained? Etc?

All of these points are not addressed and all of these points disappear if we take the position that Jesus was referring to actually swords. So, what conclusions can we draw from that?
 
But that’s just it – your quotes do not address ANY of the questions that I have asked. They say … This furnishes the meaning of his answer to their simplicity in 38: ‘It is enough’. He does not mean that two swords are enough for their protection, but, seeing that they have not understood him, he says with a smile, 'That would be enough for what I meant’. Some think, less probably, that he answers abruptly to change the subject which they have misunderstood: ‘Enough of that’. … but why would Jesus not explain to them what He really meant when He was entrusting them to carry His message out to the rest of the world? Why does scripture say that Jesus explained everything to them when in this case he apparently didn’t? What does it mean to sell your garment in order to buy a sword? Why didn’t the author of this book provide the correct meaning of this passage when the gospel was being written down and after the Holy Spirit had open their minds to the true meaning? Why is this the only exception in all of the gospels where a symbolic meaning is not explained? Etc?

All of these points are not addressed and all of these points disappear if we take the position that Jesus was referring to actually swords. So, what conclusions can we draw from that?
Below are writings and opinions of one of the Doctors of the Church, Saint John Chrysostom. Please, read his writings and tell me what you think he is saying.

**Ver. 38.—And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. They did not understand the mind and words of Christ clearly. He did not mean that they should buy swords, but He wished to show them the impending danger. Christ did not explain His meaning to the Apostles, but concealed it, saying, “It is enough,” meaning that Peter and the other Apostles might carry these swords, and even cut off Malchus’ ear, which He Himself afterwards restored and healed, showing that He was not compelled by force, but was urged by love, willingly and freely to suffer and die. Some think that they were not military swords, but rather large butchers’ knives, which the apostles used for the slaughtering, sacrificing, and disjointing of the Paschal Lamb. So S. Chrysostom, from whom I have said more on Matt. xxvii. **

**CHRYS. Now as one who teaches to swim, at first indeed placing his hands under his pupils, carefully supports them, but afterward frequently withdrawing his hand, bids them help themselves, nay even lets them sink a little; so likewise did Christ deal with His disciples. At the beginning truly He was present to them, giving them most richly abundance of all things; as it follows, And they said to them, Nothing.

But when it was necessary for them to show their own strength, He withdrew from them for a little His grace, bidding them do something of themselves; as it follows, But now he that has a purse, that is, wherein to carry money, let him take it, and likewise his scrip, that is, to carry provisions in. And truly when they had neither shoes, nor girdle, nor staff, nor money, they never suffered the want of any thing. But when He allowed them purse and scrip, they seem to suffer hunger, and thirst, and nakedness. As if He said to them, Hitherto all things have been most richly supplied to you, but now I would have you also experience poverty, therefore I hold you no longer to the former rule, but I command you to get purse and scrip. Now God might even to the end have kept them in plenty, but for many reasons He was unwilling to do so. First that they might impute nothing to themselves, but acknowledge that every thing flowed from God; secondly, that they might learn moderation; thirdly, that they might not think too highly of themselves. For this cause while He permitted them to fall into many unlooked for evils, He relaxed the rigor of the former law, lest it should become grievous and intolerable.**

CHRYS. What is this? He who said, If any one strike you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also, now arms His disciples, and with a sword only. For if it were fitting to be completely armed, not only must a man possess a sword, but shield and helmet. But even though a thousand had arms of this kind, how could the eleven be prepared for all the attacks and lying in wait of people, tyrants, allies, and nations, and how should they not quake at the mere sight of armed men, who had been brought up near lakes and rivers? We must not then suppose that He ordered them to possess swords, but by the swords He points at the secret attack of the Jews. And hence it follows, For I say to you, that this that is written must, be accomplished in me: And he was numbered with the transgressors.

CHRYS. And in truth, if He wished them to use human aid, not a hundred swords would have sufficed; but if He willed not the assistance of man, even two are superfluous.


I cannot answer your questions myself. I am not trying to read anything into the scriptures or interpretations from the Saints and Church Doctors to support an opinion.

It appears from what I’ve read, that the message was given as a warning of the impending attack. Let’s say, all eleven disciples bought swords. What would eleven swords be against the multitudes that were going to besiege the Lord? Two seemed to be enough. Only one was used and the Lord commanded Peter to sheath that sword and told him, “those who live by the sword will die by the sword.” You’ve asked many questions of what example or symbolism the Lord was trying to get across. Tell me what example or symbolism was the Lord trying to impress with those words, “…those who live by the sword will die by the sword?” Did he say two swords were enough so he could finish the “parable” by telling Peter to sheath his sword, thus making him understand?

Maybe someone else can join in and help us answer all these questions?
 
First off, unless something is official church doctrine, one should not accept a position / teaching / explanation if it raises doubt with other parts of scripture or church teaching. Such is the case with this “expert” opinion regarding the swords. Too many unanswered questions are raised … why would Jesus not explain something to those that He was entrusting to carry on His message to the rest of the world? Doesn’t that ensure that the wrong message will be conveyed? Is that something that one would expect of from the “great teacher”? Why does scripture say that He explained EVERYTHING to them when in this case He didn’t? And so on and so on. None of these questions come up if we conclude that Jesus was talking about real swords.

Secondly, the message was NOT given as a warning of the impending attack because later on we see that Jesus said that if He wanted to he could have “summon twelve legions of Angels” to come to His defense. Even ONE angel would have been MORE effective than ELEVEN men with swords – never mind twelve LEGIONS of angels.

No, that was not the message but if you read a passage or two earlier, we see that Jesus is preparing them for when they will be alone. When He was with them, He was able to protect them from everything. Now that He is leaving, they will have to fend for themselves. Thus, the commandment to be armed. Elven strong men (remember, most of them were fishermen so they weren’t weaklings) and two swords would have been sufficient to protect them on the backroads from wild animals or bands of robbers who normally traveled in groups of two or three.

With regards to what example or symbolism was the Lord trying to impress with those words, “those who live by the sword will die by the sword?” To live by the sword is to embrace violence and destruction as a lifestyle. It is the the heart and spirit of that life that causes ones own destruction. If I am protecting my family from attack that is done in love and I am expected to do so. The spirit of defense of self and family is part of Gods design in us.

Living by the sword = corrupt

Self defense and defense of family = responsibility in love (Source}

This is reflective in OFFICIAL Church teaching which tells us that we not only have a right but a DUTY (and a GRAVE duty at that) to protect ourselves from death and serious injury – further helping to confirm that Jesus was referring to actual swords in Luke 22.

Let’s not misunderstand, the first Christians were not pacifists. They were fugitives and wanted “criminals”, but were loyal to the state. It’s not that they refused to fight back; they simply knew that the Empire’s power was too much for them. Besides, they were not just indiscriminately murdered; they were offered the chance to renounce their “atheism” and sacrifice to the Emperor. Rather than do this, they rather accepted death. This is a far cry from pacifism. In fact, this is warfare at its finest. (Source}
 
First off, unless something is official church doctrine, one should not accept a position / teaching / explanation if it raises doubt with other parts of scripture or church teaching. Such is the case with this “expert” opinion regarding the swords.
I agree with your official Church doctrine statement. That is, a position, either way, should not be accepted if it raises doubt with other parts of scriptures or Church teaching.

Personally, I feel comfortable with the “expert” opinions, especially when it comes from the Saints and Church Doctors.
This is reflective in OFFICIAL Church teaching which tells us that we not only have a right but a DUTY (and a GRAVE duty at that) to protect ourselves from death and serious injury – further helping to confirm that Jesus was referring to actual swords in Luke 22.
I agree with the Church teaching. However, I question the necessity of a personal “armament”. If two swords was enough, according to your interpretation, how many and what type modern weapons are necessary for the purposes of self defense? Remember, two swords was enough and there were no instructions for shields, helmets or any other type armor.
Let’s not misunderstand, the first Christians were not pacifists. They were fugitives and wanted “criminals”, but were loyal to the state. It’s not that they refused to fight back; they simply knew that the Empire’s power was too much for them. Besides, they were not just indiscriminately murdered; they were offered the chance to renounce their “atheism” and sacrifice to the Emperor. Rather than do this, they rather accepted death. This is a far cry from pacifism. In fact, this is warfare at its finest. (Source}
As you say, “…they simply knew that the Empire’s power was too much for them” seems to be what some of the Saints and Church Doctors said was part of the example being conveyed to the Apostles with the statement, “two swords are enough.”

I have to question whether or not the early Christians were pacifists or not, with the position you state. Below is a writing of St. Ignatius to the Romans, requesting that they do not save him from martyrdom.
For it is not my desire to act towards you as a man-pleaser, but as pleasing God, even as also you please Him. For neither shall I ever have such [another] opportunity of attaining to God; nor will you, if you shall now be silent, ever be entitled to the honour of a better work. For if you are silent concerning me, I shall become God’s; but if you show your love to my flesh, I shall again have to run my race. Pray, then, do not seek to confer any greater favour upon me than that I be sacrificed to God while the altar is still prepared; that, being gathered together in love, you may sing praise to the Father, through Christ Jesus, that God has deemed me, the bishop of Syria, worthy to be sent for from the east unto the west. It is good to set from the world unto God, that I may rise again to Him.
I appreciate your posts, but would like to suggest sources other than posters from this forum. I agree self defense is permissible as stated in the excerpts of the Catechism, from which I get the impression that even self defense requires self control with some limitations on how it is to be used.

I have never promoted a total gun ban. I have promoted common sense gun control laws.

While you could be one of the most responsible gun owners anywhere, I think you can see my point that, besides those with a criminal intent, there are people who would be quite the opposite.
 
I have never promoted a total gun ban. I have promoted common sense gun control laws.
I love the whole concept of “common sense” gun laws.

What I have found is that with these ‘common sense’ proposals there is rarely any fact injected into the laws that are passed but usually a lot of emotion.

For example, Obama/Biden/Pelosi and Reid want to enact the so-called Assault Weapons Ban again, claiming falsely that these guns are used in crimes and that they belong on foreign battlefields.

Curiously, all long arms combined only amount to something LESS THAN 1/2 of 1% of all gun crime. So how could these very large and very expensive guns (like the AR15 which average about $1000 each) be called common crime guns when they probably are used only a handful of times a year for criminal acts but are conversely the MOST POPULAR guns sold in America today?

Further, with regard to the AR15 and the versions of other so-called Assault Weapons, being claimed to be only good for foreign battle fields I find it curious that the guns we civilians are able to buy are NOT used on ANY battlefield or issued by ANY government ANYWHERE in the world. The civilian guns may look roughly similar to the military guns but they are not military guns. Looking like a military gun and being a military gun are two different things.

So these claims by our politicians are clearly lies.
While you could be one of the most responsible gun owners anywhere, I think you can see my point that, besides those with a criminal intent, there are people who would be quite the opposite.
As for responsible gun owners, I suspect that you may want to dig into facts and see that the vast majority of gun owners are actually very responsible. Yes, there are some who are not. The same is true for people who own cars and also drink alcohol. Of the legal gun owners, I’d be willing to suggest that more are responsible with their guns than alcohol owners are when they get behind the wheels of their cars.
 
I love the whole concept of “common sense” gun laws.
Thanks for your post. Yes, I read where you posted that information on the politics forums. :rolleyes:

Do you have any comments on the topic of this thread? 🤷
 
Thanks for your post. Yes, I read where you posted that information on the politics forums.
You’re welcome. Some of this information was not posted in that thread.
Do you have any comments on the topic of this thread? 🤷
I posted to where this thread went, not to the original topic. I figured it was reasonable to reply to your post as you are the original starter of the thread. Since you took the thread in to this point with your prior post to Sir Knight it didn’t seem unreasonable to reply to your points in your thread.

It is not my fault that you post broad generalizations that imply most gun owners are irresponsible despite of the facts to the contrary. Its not may fault that you lump all guns into violent uses, again, despite facts to the contrary. It is also not my fault that you took your own thread to this point where when I responded to your off topic post that you got frustrated.

Is there anything else?
 
I posted to where this thread went, not to the original topic. I figured it was reasonable to reply to your post as you are the original starter of the thread. Since you took the thread in to this point with your prior post to Sir Knight it didn’t seem unreasonable to reply to your points in your thread.

It is not my fault that you post broad generalizations that imply most gun owners are irresponsible despite of the facts to the contrary. Its not may fault that you lump all guns into violent uses, again, despite facts to the contrary. It is also not my fault that you took your own thread to this point where when I responded to your off topic post that you got frustrated.

Is there anything else?
I’m not frustrated. I only post to try and provide food for thought, from another perspective.

This thread was not started for the purposes of “I’m right”, “No, I’m right” type discussion. I started this thread to try and view the topic in the Light.

On the politics thread, one of the poster’s posted, “Christ advocated violence”. When I disagreed with that statement, I was told I was off topic. So, I started this thread and invited those posters to join the discussion.

I sorry you misunderstood my posts and thought I had “lumped all guns into violent uses”. I assure you that is not my intent. There are irresponsible people, emotionally distraught people, criminals, and gun accidents. Bureau of Justice statistics say, in 2006, that 11,566 murders with firearms occurred, 188,804 robberies with firearms occured, and 188,527 assaults with firearms occurred, for a total of 388,897 total firearm crimes. These numbers do no reflect suicides or accidental deaths from firearms. Personally, I think those numbers are too high. There are some firearms used for violent purposes. I could have posted those statistics on the politics thread, but the “dead horse” is being beat beyond recognition there and I prefer reasoning to arguing.

My approach to “worldly” issues is to try and view them in light of Christ’s teachings, through scriptures, the Church, prayer and discussions with fellow Christians. I tried to be fair in starting this thread and posted the Church’s position on self defense, scriptures and writings of Saints and Church Doctors for verses not referenced in the catechism. It’s an open discussion and I don’t claim to have all the answers. It was sincerely my hope that specific documentation through a spiritual source could be provided on the subject. I’ll admit, not only food for thought for myself but others as well.
 
I agree with your official Church doctrine statement. That is, a position, either way, should not be accepted if it raises doubt with other parts of scriptures or Church teaching.

Personally, I feel comfortable with the “expert” opinions, especially when it comes from the Saints and Church Doctors.
Let’s remember that while the “opinions” of the saints certainly have merit, they are not assured to be infallible unless officially declared by the Church to be so.

When Jesus tells Peter “all who take the sword will perish by the sword.”, He is actually quoting an old Jewish Targum on Scripture which has just such a saying. If we tried to take the words of Jesus as an absolute prohibition of all use of the sword, then the Church for centuries would have taught error, and the promises of Jesus to protect the Church would be void. Rather, St. Thomas in II.II. 40.1 ad 1 quotes with approval the interpretation of St. Augustine on this point: To “take the sword” means to do so without proper authority. (Source)

Also, when quoting St. Augustine’s nonviolent texts (Summa II.II.40.1.ad 2), St. Thomas writes: “These precepts are always to be observed in attitude of mind, namely, that a man should always be prepared not to resist … but at times one must act otherwise because of the common good … Hence Augustine says … nothing is more unhappy than the happiness of sinners, in that impunity is nourished, and an evil will is strengthened” (Augustine, “On the Sermon on the Mount” 1.19; Epistle 138.2.14). (Same Source)
I agree with the Church teaching. However, I question the necessity of a personal “armament”. If two swords was enough, according to your interpretation,
Two swords were enough for their particular situation. As I said before, eleven strong men and two swords would have been sufficient to defend against a small band of robbers or a wild animal that they might encounter.

If I’m running out to the corner store to purchase a bottle of milk, I do not need to arm myself with a shotgun, body armor, a sniper rifle, etc.; but I should arm myself because the CCC tells us that we have a DUTY to protect ourselves from harm and we do not know when danger may strike. One could live in a high crime area all of their life and never be touched by crime while another person may live in a very low crime area and be unfortunate enough to be touched by crime. Since these type of things will happen at a time and place not of our choosing, we should always be prepared to deal with the potential danger.

However, if one finds oneself in the middle of a riot as was the case in LA in the 1990’s and Miami in the 1980’s and several cities in the 1960’s where police were unable to respond to calls for help and several people are breaking down your door and you have a wife and small children to protect, then in that case a greater personal “armament” would be needed to carry out the responsibility the Church tells us that we have to protect ourselves and our family.
how many and what type modern weapons are necessary for the purposes of self defense? Remember, two swords was enough and there were no instructions for shields, helmets or any other type armor.
As I said above, it all depends on the particular situation that one finds oneself in. The CCC tells us that we have a GRAVE duty to protect ourselves and others from death and serious injury. This is not just a right but a DUTY and a GRAVE duty.

A “grave” duty needs to be address with the BEST means POSSIBLE, otherwise it can not be considered to be a GRAVE duty. Let me illustrate this with a very obvious example. Suppose you call an ambulance because a loved one is having a heart attack and the hospital is only minutes away but instead of putting the person in the ambulance and driving them there to receive emergency treatment, they decide to put the person on a stretcher and roll the person on the stretcher to the hospital taking an hour or more and the person dies along the way.

They had a grave duty to get the person to the hospital as quickly as possible and that meant that they should have utilized the best means possible in order to do that. By not using the ambulance, they FAILED in performing their duty because, again, they did not use the best means available to them.

The same applies to us. The church teaches us that we have a grave duty to protect ourselves and others from death and serious injury. Failure to utilize the best means available to us means that we’ve failed in performing that duty if we could not properly defend against an aggressive act and failure to perform a duty is a sin of omission and since this is a GRAVE duty, it might even be a mortal sin of omission.

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As you say, “…they simply knew that the Empire’s power was too much for them” seems to be what some of the Saints and Church Doctors said was part of the example being conveyed to the Apostles with the statement, “two swords are enough.”

I have to question whether or not the early Christians were pacifists or not, with the position you state. Below is a writing of St. Ignatius to the Romans, requesting that they do not save him from martyrdom.
And in 1 Sam 15:10-23 we read that God rejected Saul as King of the Jews for FAILING to use the sword in executing the King of Amalek – a very clear example where being a pacifist was not pleasing to God … and let’s not forget that Jesus was always in perfect agreement with His heavenly Father.
I appreciate your posts, but would like to suggest sources other than posters from this forum.
I’ve tried to do that this time around. Unfortunately my online and research time is very limited. However, I would also like to bring the following to your attention …

Jesus walk the talk and talk the walk – as they say, showing us how we are to act through His own examples even forgiving those that nailed Him to a cross. So why is it that at His trial when He was slapped by the guard (see John 18:23), Jesus didn’t turn the other cheek but instead rebuked them saying: “If I have spoken wrongly, testify to the wrong; but if I have spoken rightly, why do you strike me?”

Jesus was not a pacifist and does not expect us to be either. Just look at this past Sunday’s gospel account. Jesus made a whip out of chords, overthrew tables and bodily threw people out of the temple – clearly not the actions of a pacifist!
I agree self defense is permissible as stated in the excerpts of the Catechism, from which I get the impression that even self defense requires self control with some limitations on how it is to be used.
And it also says that we are to take greater care of our own life than that of our attacker.
I have never promoted a total gun ban. I have promoted common sense gun control laws.
There is no such thing as “common sense gun control laws”. What many be reasonable for one person may be totally unreasonable for another person. Let me again illustrate with a very extreme example. A lot of folks say that regular civilians do not need assault rifles and that they only belong on our battlefields but during the LA riots in the 1990’s there was a store owner who stood outside of his store with an assault rifle to protect what was his and nothing happened to his store. The stores around him, even with the owners present, were robbed, looted and destroyed. The owners lost everything that they worked for their entire lives – retirement, children’s college money, etc.; all gone. Working 6-7 days a week, 12-16 hours a day and it was all gone and because it was caused by civil unrest, most of it was not covered by insurance.

In that particular case it was prudent for that man to have that assualt rifle. He didn’t take a single life. He didn’t even fire a single shot. Yet, he didn’t lose everything that he had worked for while others did. If a law was passed maing it illegal for to have owned one and he lost everything as well, what would have been your take on that? Too bad for him?
While you could be one of the most responsible gun owners anywhere, I think you can see my point that, besides those with a criminal intent, there are people who would be quite the opposite.
Legally licensed gun owners, as a group, have a lower arrest rate than the general public. Are you saying that if a small percentage COULD be irresponsible with something, then restrictions should be imposed on everyone? That would be like saying that some folks might speed and get into an accident, therefore nobody should be allowed to drive or if your neighbor was irresponsible and somebody drowned in his pool, you should not be allowed to own a pool because of his improper actions. Would you conider that fair and just?

There are people who will abuse and/or be irresponsible with just about anything. That doesn’t mean that responsible people should also lose their access to these things because of these irresponsible people.
 
I would also like to point out how many of the early Church fathers and other Christians preferred martyrdom over self defense. As I am now studying the writings of the early Church fathers, I am looking forward to learning when and why that changed in the Church history.
If we were all like that and Jesus there would never be any wars.
this reminds me of a reflection i read recently in “The Lives of the Saints”, and how we are far from the spirituality of the primitive Saints, and oh, how do the conditions of our time reflect it…

October 26.—ST. EVARISTUS, Pope and Martyr.

Reflection.—The disciples of the apostles, by assiduous meditation on heavenly things, were so swallowed up in the life to come, that they seemed no longer inhabitants of this world. If Christians esteem and set their hearts on earthly goods, and lose sight of eternity in the course of their actions, they are no longer animated by the spirit of the primitive Saints, and have become children of this world, slaves to its vanities, and to their own irregular passions. If we do not correct this disorder of our hearts, and conform our interior to the spirit of Christ, we cannot be entitled to His promises.

taken from “Lives of the Saints” by Fr. Alban Butler (online sacred-texts.com/chr/lots/lots332.htm)
 
“Did Christ advocate violence?”

Yes and no. He implied it, by advocating justice, the establishment of often requires violence. He also implied it by teaching a doctrine of righteousness in a corrupt world. The corrupt undoubtedly construe such righteousness as a form of violence.
 
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