Did Christ die for our sins?

[Tamsulosin]

I am sure this question must have been asked but I do not know where in the forum to look for this answer.
If our Lord died in the cross so that our sins be forgiven, why is that some people will still go to hell? Isn’t Christ’s sacrifice enough to redeem the sins of everybody, without confession,contrition, faith and good deeds?
And if that is not the case(that our sins are automatically forgiven),then why did our Lord feel the need to die in the cross, and suffer so much for us? I think his death and resurrection showed us He is God(triumph over death),but I do not see the relation it has to our sins.We must earn heaven ourselves,one day at a time.
A clarification would be very helpful.Tam

 

[yesukristus]

Actually Jesus died to restore man’s original connection to God (the one that was lost 'cause of Adam’s disobedience, i.e. original sin). He did not die so that we can have carte blanche to sin. And just because God loved us enough to die for us doesn’t mean he’s going to look away when we sin and pretend everything’s hunky dory. God is also just, as just as He is merciful and as He is loving. He’s not going to force us to be with Him. His salvation can be rejected, you know, through disobedience (refusal to believe in Him, refusal to live according to His laws, etc.) And if you disobey God you can’t be with Him (without confession and forgiveness, that is). And that’s what Hell is- the place where those who say to God “I don’t wanna spend eternity with you” end up in, the place where there is no God, only sin.
And also another thing- we can’t earn heaven ourselves. We can’t even deserve heaven. God’s love is free for all, and the way we accept it is to walk with Him (i.e. listen to Him, obey His laws and love & serve others in His name) every day of our life. If we try to be good Christians on our efforts alone we will NEVER succeed. Never. Because if we can then there is no need for Jesus to die for us in the first place.

 

[Shin]

The justice of God requires men to repent for true forgiveness. Men who do not repent are not forgiven in the next life, though God gives them time in this life to change their minds.

Christ’s death opened the gates of Heaven, it did not undo His justice. He warns all men, that in the end, He too becomes a Judge. His death and crucifixion gave us an opportunity… not a pass. And His judgement is all the more terrible for the fact that now men deny Him despite the cross.

We are to become crucified to ourselves for the sake of divine justice, so that we justly no longer prefer a single sin to God – no man can enter Heaven who does not. Men who truly prefer sin in some grave fashion or of deadly matter to God, go to Hell upon their deaths, and all who knew of Christ and yet did this fall deeper into Hell than all the rest.

Therefor those who say that it is pretending the crucifixion is lacking and say ‘all sins are forgiven upon embracing Christ’ do not know the meaning of the words ‘embracing Christ’, they think it is only an emotion or a single decision, rather than the entire self and soul, all a man’s mind, body, and will in all things.

He who does not hate sin does not love God, he merely mouths the words and lives in self delusion. Because the Lord hates sin, and calls all men to repentance for the sake of love of what is of God in them, and demonstrated us the true horror of sin on His cross.

 

[alacoque]

Christ’s passion and death redeemed us. As a poster has already mentioned, this consisted of restoring the relationship between God and man. This makes it POSSIBLE for us to receive forgiveness for our sins, it is not automatic forgiveness for any/everything we decide to do in our lives.

Maybe it will help to come at it from the other direction: Without the sacrifice of Christ on Calvary, there would be NO possiblity, NO WAY, EVER, for any of us to be forgiven for anything or to get to heaven, no matter what we did, or how much repentence we had, or how good a life we lived. Mankind, by himself, can never reach heaven. It is only through the gift of Christ’s death that we receive the ability to have a chance at heaven. This is the state Adam lost by original sin.

It’s a cooperation, however. For an oversimplified analogy, you can think of the redemption as similar to some billionaire depositing untold amounts of money in a checking account for you. You, however, have to write the checks, access the $$ and use it (and hopefully THANK the gracious billionaire). Just because the money is there doesn’t mean it will automatically find it’s way to all your creditors.

Christ’s gift of redemption is the gift only God can give…the access to heaven. Our cooperation is required to actually get there.

Hope the helps a little

 

[fermat]

In addition to the other posts, think about this:
If Christ’s once and for all sacrifice automatically forgives all of our sins, why did He feel it necessary to give the Apostles the power to forgive or retain sins? Why give them the power to do something that is automatically done each time we sin? And what about the retaining? If we are automatically forgiven, there is nothing to retain.

 

[Tamsulosin]

In addition to the other posts, think about this:
If Christ’s once and for all sacrifice automatically forgives all of our sins, why did He feel it necessary to give the Apostles the power to forgive or retain sins? Why give them the power to do something that is automatically done each time we sin? And what about the retaining? If we are automatically forgiven, there is nothing to retain.

I agree completely with your argument,Fermat.

On the other hand the other posts are helpful, but are they SUPPORTED by anything Christ himself stated,or it is our reasoning( that He suffered in the cross to open the gates for the possibility of the forgiveness of sins?).In other words,did Christ say that was the purpose?

 

[vppoole]

Isn’t Christ’s sacrifice enough to redeem the sins of everybody, without confession, contrition, faith and good deeds?

Christ’s sacrifice is enough to redeem the sins of everybody; just not everybody has joined themselves completely to Christ. Nobody can earn God’s eternal embrace; they can only receive it–and the invitation extends to all people because we are all made by Him, like Him, and for Him. If there was no need for us to join ourselves to Christ for salvation, then why did He bother with teaching people how to live? Just to be nice? I don’t think so.

A common thought of Hell seems to hyperfocus on Hell’s anguish as if God relished sending souls to eternal fire or as if some good souls went there, which is false. C.S. Lewis said something like ‘God does not force Heaven on a soul that wants to keep souvenirs of Hell.’ Nor does He force Hell on souls that want God for who He truly is–which is pure. *The scary thing is that if we wish to remain neutral, we will not grow strong enough to try to follow Christ and we will prefer the more convenient desires of Hell. So even the middle path as a reasonable choice is an illusion, as it is not a road to Heaven.
*
For example, parents who are drug abusers cannot regain custody of their children unless they demonstrate that they want to be truly loving parents by turning away from their past lifestyle. They cannot, in a just and merciful system, hold onto an abusive lifestyle and their child’s embrace. Similarly, a soul ultimately cannot have both Heaven and Hell. The Sacraments, humility, contrition, faith, and good deeds are means in which we turn toward God and receive Grace, desiring Heaven increasingly more, and Hell–along with its souvenirs–so much less because it lacks the fulfillment of true love. Our reply to God’s invitation to Heaven is important and should be a faithful “Yes!” in our thoughts, words, and deeds. Giving Christ any less than everything that we are diminishes our bond to Him who is our salvation.

Thank you for your patience! I hope this helps! Pax!

 

[alacoque]

You say: On the other hand the other posts are helpful, but are they SUPPORTED by anything Christ himself stated,or it is our reasoning( that He suffered in the cross to open the gates for the possibility of the forgiveness of sins?).In other words,did Christ say that was the purpose?

I don’t believe we are limited in our understanding of the redemption to only those things ‘said’ by Christ (if, by that, you mean what He said in His own voice while here on earth in His lifetime). What we understand and how we understand this great mystery of our redemption comes, as all our understanding does, from Scripture, the Magesterium and Tradition. The Church teaches us these many things, in her theology and doctrines. If we were limited in our beliefs to only what we know of Jesus’ words while on earth, we would have precious little. Even the gospel says that all the books in the world couldn’t hold the recording of everything He did. He founded His Church on earth, so that through her, the Holy Spirit could lead us to all truth.

But even unaided human reason can get as far as understanding that if Christ’s death on the cross was an automatic erasing of all sin for all time, with no need for personal cooperation with the redemption and that He didn’t give us the ‘possibility’ of forgiveness (and therefore, the possibility also of “dying in our sins”), the Church makes no sense and neither does the Sacrament of Confession.

 

[NeedImprovement]

I agree completely with your argument,Fermat.

On the other hand the other posts are helpful, but are they SUPPORTED by anything Christ himself stated,or it is our reasoning( that He suffered in the cross to open the gates for the possibility of the forgiveness of sins?).In other words,did Christ say that was the purpose?

Hi Tamsulosin. I think Our Blessed Lord did say it all right - just about as clearly as it can possibly be said :

“TAKE THIS ALL OF YOU AND EAT IT. THIS IS MY BODY WHICH WILL BE GIVEN UP FOR YOU.”

“TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND DRINK FROM IT: THIS IS THE CUP OF MY BLOOD, THE BLOOD OF THE NEW AND EVERLASTING COVENANT. IT WILL BE SHED FOR YOU AND FOR ALL SO THAT SINS MAY BE FORGIVEN. DO THIS IN MEMORY OF ME.”

 

[Tamsulosin]

Thank you NeedImprovement. You pointed to Christ’s words stating this fact.
Indeed He said it. He left all these clues for us to analize.Each word a message.
I may never understand in my small human mind why that suffering was required(we could just been told to follow his example and the comandments and have faith and love ,or else…) But He chose this powerful sacrificial act, and thanks to it we feel more humbled, motivated, and enamoured .
Thank all of you again for your (name removed by moderator)ut in helping me put the pieces together , and thanks for this forum.

 

[NeedImprovement]

I don’t think anyone (except God) has the complete answer as to “why” that suffering was required.

Sometimes I could see smoke coming out of my ears when I would read certain commentaries on that subject.

One reflection I read on that subject asked why He chose to shed all His Precious Blood, when one drop of it would have been enough to redeem the whole world.

I remember hearing a homily once where the priest said that if we were the only person on earth, Christ would still have come to die for us so as to save us.

If one feels “humbled” contemplating Christ’s suffering and Sacrifice, that is a very good thing:

• • First of all, it is a holy thing to contemplate His Sacrifice.
• • Also, when we feel humbled in those circumstances we are considering the greatness of God and are feeling the power of His immeasurable love for us.

I wonder if the Sacrifice is meant to draw our attention to the Love which motivated it…?

God bless

 

[alacoque]

Sometimes I could see smoke coming out of my ears when I would read certain commentaries on that subject.

Needimprovement:

Boy oh boy, can I relate to THAT statement!

I think, sometimes, that any understanding our Good Lord gives us on some of these things is on the level of our deepest soul and not on the usual level (mentally / brain) of understanding. If this is so, it seems very fitting to me, since what’s involved is God’s great mysteries of love and the expressions of His mind and heart! How could we possibly handle that?

I’m reminded of something I ran across in my reading about an alleged event concerning St. Augustine. Allegedly, he was asked about his understanding of some mystery of God and/or the faith, or to explain something of that nature. He was supposed to have replied along the lines of (paraphrased): “I understand xx as long as you don’t ask me about it and as long as I don’t have to explain it.” (maybe there’s a St. Augustine buff somewhere out there in CAF-land who will know, more precisely, what I’m referring to in that anecdote.) I don’t remember what ‘xx’ was; what mystery he was asked about.

But I could relate to that, too…Sometimes, I DO have a tenuous grasp on one or another of the ‘things of God’ - but it’s always, as St. Paul says, “as in a glass, darkly” and always on some level other than my everyday mind/brain! But, I could absolutely respond as St. Augustine did about it…i.e. I get it; just don’t ask me about it! I kind of feel the same way about Einstein’s theory of relativity!

Anyway, I wanted to share just a small mention of something I heard/learned on retreat one time…I don’t know the theological validity of it (though I suspect it holds up), but it helped me to think about it when it came to the Sacred mystery of Jesus’ suffering.

It was this: Jesus was the Son of God; WAS God. He could have redeemed us in any of an infinite number of ways; any way He chose. His horrible sufferings were not essential to His saving / redeeming us…as I said, He could have chosen ANY way at all to accomplish our salvation. We know what he chose…and we know He could have stopped short of the worst of it and STILL redeemed us; nothing would have been lacking. And we would still have been utterly grateful and totally humbled. We would have still adored Him, reverenced Him and directed our lives to union with Him, in this life and the next.

But only by his going ‘all the way’ would we be convinced of His LOVE! Sometimes I don’t think we fully appreciate how vitally important it is (to us as human beings and the way we’re made) that we BE convinced that He LOVES US infinitely! And, even with each other, how hard it is to trust someone else’s love for us and to be sure they love us. What does infinite love look like, anyway? Now we know! St Paul said we preach Jesus, crucified; a crucified God - and I think that’s because we preach a God who IS LOVE. Somehow (God knowing us better than we know ourselves - from before the foundation of the world!), He knew what it would take to convince us that His love for us was all that it is!

I know that’s not the whole of it, but it helps me to meditate on that concept…

May His infinite love be with YOU, always!