Did Christ found an invisible or visible church?

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Hmmm…Saul and Barnabas had hands laid on them in preparation for the work that the Holy Spirit called them to. There’s a lot going on here, so let’s itemize.
  1. Peter may have been among those who laid hands on Saul and Barnabas
  2. Barnabas is still considered a prophet and/or teacher at this point
  3. Paul is still called Saul here (a minor point perhaps)
  4. Although Saul had seen Jesus on the Damascus Road, the Holy Spirit called him apart for a separate ministry.
Here is a question: At what point did the prophet/teacher Barnabas become an Apostle? We know that Barnabas became an apostle because later we read:

Acts 14:14
But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of this, they tore their clothes and rushed out into the crowd, shouting:

Notice that Barnabas is referred to as an Apostle after the Church at Antioch (Peter included?) laid hands on him.

Another point: When did Saul become Paul? Of course, this may simply have been his Greek name from the time of his youth (since he was a Jew raised in the Greek-speaking city of Tarsus), but the first mention of it in scripture is here:

Acts 13:9
Then Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked straight at Elymas and said,

Again, this was AFTER the Church at Antioch (Peter included?) laid hands on Saul and Barnabas in Acts 13:3.

Well, as I said, there is a lot going on here, and perhaps I have read too much into these verses. I won’t be a stickler for Peter being present or the bit about Saul’s name change, but I will hold firm on the idea that the Church laid hands on Saul and Barnabas and subsequently we see changes in the way the scriptures refer to them both.

Paul was a nobody, an assistant to Barnabas at best, until the Church at Antioch laid hands on him. After that, he begins to rise to prominence.

That’s right, Paul was of little account in the Church prior to Acts 13:13. He had an experience of Jesus on the Damascus Road (Don’t all of us have stories about when we first believed?), then he went into Arabia on an extended personal retreat, and then Saul, the brilliant student of Gamaliel, went home to momma in Tarsus. Barnabas found him unemployed and living in his parents’ basement. Barnabas pulled him out of obscurity, and only then was he ordained by the Church and set apart for greater ministry.

God called him, the Church ordained him, the Holy Spirit inspired him. Seems pretty straight forward, right? Paul is on the path to a mega-ministry. But hold on, even after all of this, Paul himself felt it necessary to double-check his understanding of the gospel with Peter. We know this because Paul wrote:

Galatians 2:1-2
1Fourteen years later I went up again to Jerusalem, this time with Barnabas. I took Titus along also. 2I went in response to a revelation and set before them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. But I did this privately to those who seemed to be leaders, for fear that I was running or had run my race in vain.

Paul FEARED that he might be in error; who did He check with? Jesus? The Holy Spirit? The Bible Alone? Nope. He checked his gospel against the infallible, authoritative teaching of the living head of the Church, Peter the rock.
 
In response to TX

I am not arguing for a monolithic enterprise, except when it comes to the acceptance of certain doctrines and practices. I am saying that with the advent of Protestantism we see countless churches which are not in a formal state of communion with each other for numerous reasons and protestants have had to justify this state of existence by saying our allegiance is to God, who alone knows those who are part of the “true church,” thus anyone from any denomination could be in it. So what do we have on earth in terms of church? Unlike in the first century the protestant cannot locate the church. They cannot say this is the church, this is not the church, because any one church they condemn might have an individual who is part of the church and conversely there might be no one in that visible congregation that is actually part of the church.

This idea of what the church is, seems utterly foreign to the scripture. Did the apostles not know who composed the church? Did they go around establishing house churches and handing out bibles saying “Good luck”? No, we see a very intimate church in that they care for each other’s well being. This begins with Paul correcting the Corinthians and Galatians, visiting the churches he had founded and being, as far as we can see, an authority over them. If this was the sort of privilege and power that Paul, not being one of the twelve, exercised over the churches, how much more so were the apostles involved?
So when you say we need to focus on those outside the church, from my perspective protestants are outside the church. I would never call a protestant equal to an atheist or say they aren’t Christian (unless they rejected some doctrines concerning God), nor say they are unsaved, but I cannot tell them they are in full members of the body of Christ. I posed this question, could we imagine not being with the apostles in the first century, in direct communion with them?

If we could not conceive of being apart from them, how can we conceive of being apart from the historic churches they founded? Churches which were the body of Christ?
 
TxGodfollower said:
Also, in a way, Catholic churches are competing with each other. There are easily 20 Catholic parishes in my local metroplex. As each one was built, people that used to go to one now go to another.
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This may be the case but they are still part of the one true visible Church that Christ founded. I myself attend different parishes around my city.

Peace, Mat.
 
Hmmmm… good question.

What do Catholics consider the visible Church to be?

Can you post a picture of it?
 
Hockeygurl said:
Hmmmm… good question.

What do Catholics consider the visible Church to be?

Can you post a picture of it?
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Well, I sort of could…the Church is the Pope, the Bishops, the priests, the deacons and the laity…with some monks and nuns thrown in for good measure.

The point is that you can visibly SEE who is in and not in the Church.

If you have a question, there is a real, live person you can ask. And ultimately, you could get an infallible answer.
 
The visuals are statements to the prophecy about Jesus, that He would have zeal for His father’s house.

Our churches are beautiful because there within resides the physical presence of Our Lord Himself…Who then comes to dwell within us…our bodies the temple of the Holy Spirit.

Our church buildings are outward visible signs of the physical Church…but yes…the Church comprises of all those who profess the Nicene Creed…the Church living members joined to Jesus Christ.

Our physical buildings will go down…but the Church remains in us…the living Jesus Christ, Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity.
 
There is no way an invisible church can settled disputes. (In Acts, all involved in church formation around the region came in to have their say on the circumcision issue for Gentiles. A decision was taken and that was that.) Take it to the Church! What Church? There is no need to! We just form our own church so that those in the church are all happy and contented with their own interpretations. Till the next group of dissidents.

The invisible church doesn’t speak with one voice on doctrines. Any one can form their own doctrine. Divorce? If your church doesn’t permit it, go through the list of invisible churches and find one that fits. And jump ship. Abortion? Same routine. Gay sex? Same SOP. If none exist, make one.

And everyone goes off happily thinking that they have been saved.

Just for a moment stop there. If you were Christ, and having taught that divorce is a no-no, gay relationships an abomination , would he consented to you using his name to promote your own private fetishes? Do you think he wants you to claim a personal relationship with him for misusing his teachings or distorting his teachings? He taught love the sinner, hate the sin. Yes, love the sinner but DON’T promote the sin! Sad, now it is love the sinner, love the sin.
 
Randy_Carson said:
Well, I sort of could…the Church is the Pope, the Bishops, the priests, the deacons and the laity…with some monks and nuns thrown in for good measure.

The point is that you can visibly SEE who is in and not in the Church.

If you have a question, there is a real, live person you can ask. And ultimately, you could get an infallible answer.
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You mean a question like what this scripture was referring to? :eek:
If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector. Mt 18-17
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“You are the light of the world. A city seated on a mountain cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle and put it under a bushel, but upon a candlestick, that it may shine to all that are in the house.”
Mt 5:14-15

The city on the mountain is the Church. It must share the Light of Truth with the world. It mustn’t hide it nor diminish it.

*“It is an easier thing for the sun to be quenched, than for the church to be made invisible.” *
St. John Chrysostom (A.D. ~407)
 
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