Did Christ Give The Ability To Forgive Sins To The Apostles?

[TNT]

blackfish152:

In a much similar vein to this post,

An evangelical friend of mine, whilst reflecting on this issue has informed me that Matt 16:19 is about peter, but the binding is given also in matt 18:18, the CCC 553 states that this Binding and loosing power is given to the apostles for the power to forgive sins in Christ’s Name, authority etc… But my friend is quick to point out that mattt 18:18 refers to disciples and not to the apostles alone.

My friend goes on to say that in John 20:23 the power to forgive is given to the disciples and not simply to the apostles.

This on the face of it— does this suggest no need for the sacremental system of confession via the authority of apostolic sucession, because Christ gave this ability to all the disciples, all his followers.

Looking for help on this big time.

God bless

m.

** Are the disciples and apostles used interchangeably?**
Matthew 10:1 And having called his** twelve disciples together, he gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of diseases, and all manner of infirmities.
Matthew 11:1 And it came to pass, when Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples, he passed from thence, to teach and preach in their cities.
Matthew 17*:1 And after six days Jesus taketh unto him Peter and James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into a high mountain apart: 2 And he was transfigured before them. And his face did shine as the sun: and his garments became white as snow. 3 And behold there appeared to them Moses and Elias talking with him. 4 And Peter answering, said to Jesus: Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles, one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. 5 And as he was yet speaking, behold a bright cloud overshadowed them. And lo, a voice out of the cloud, saying: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased: hear ye him. 6 And the (3??) disciples hearing*, fell upon their face, and were very much afraid. 7 And Jesus came and touched them: and said to them, Arise, and fear not.
Matthew 20:17 And Jesus going up to Jerusalem, took the **twelve disciples **apart, and said to them:

Matthew 26:17 And on the first day of the Azymes, the disciples came to Jesus, saying: Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the pasch?
18 But Jesus said: Go ye into the city to a certain man, and say to him: the master saith, My time is near at hand, with thee I make the pasch with my disciples.

19 And the disciples did as Jesus appointed to them, and they prepared the pasch.20 But when it was evening, he sat down with his twelve disciples…26 And whilst they were at supper, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke: and gave to his disciples, and said: Take ye, and eat. This is my body…35 Peter saith to him: Yea, though I should die with thee, I will not deny thee. And in like manner said all the disciples.36 Then Jesus came with them into a country place which is called Gethsemani; and he said to his disciples: Sit you here, till I go yonder and pray.

**The answer is YES. The point is, you cannot say that disciples means a multitude beyond the 12 with any certainty without looking at context, and your “friend” has no intention of doing that unless he betrays his evangelical roots.
**The disciples that your “friend” is referring to in his verses have historically referred to the 12 apostles.
His interpretation is a novelty with no historical support in antiquity. In other words, he’s making it up for his own position’s purpose.

 

[blackfish152]

** Are the disciples and apostles used interchangeably?**

The disciples that your “friend” is referring to in his verses have historically referred to the 12 apostles.
QUOTE]

HI, I really appreciate your help.

I suspected this, but was unsure, should have check it out…
It was so simple, but yet had me quite unnerved, I will most certainly be saying a prayer for you tonight.

God bless you.

M.

 

[porthos11]

DianJo:

Ok, your explanation was going real good for me until the last paragraph. I’m not disputing what you say here - it’s just that it’s not sitting right with me for some reason.

The hilighted part is where I get a little queezy.

Hi DianJo,

Actually, so do I. Looking back over it, I think it’s quite over the line. Be assured though that I profess the Church’s sacramental teaching, and this is a lame attempt to try to relate it to binding and loosing. Anyway, I’m convinced you’re right, and I retract this part of my post:

porthos11:

Another way of understanding it is that when a person truly repents and resolves never to commit sin again, and comes to Christ’s minister to confess, **Christ has already forgiven him for he has opened himself to the mercy of God. The priest merely pronounces for the benefit of the sinner
**

I believe that the entire action of Jesus’ breathing on the apostles and commanding them to forgive or retain sins means they act on his authority and as they forgive or retain sins, it is Christ acting through them.

 

[Kurt_G]

blackfish152:

In a much similar vein to this post,

An evangelical friend of mine, whilst reflecting on this issue has informed me that Matt 16:19 is about peter, but the binding is given also in matt 18:18, the CCC 553 states that this Binding and loosing power is given to the apostles for the power to forgive sins in Christ’s Name, authority etc… But my friend is quick to point out that mattt 18:18 refers to disciples and not to the apostles alone.

My friend goes on to say that in John 20:23 the power to forgive is given to the disciples and not simply to the apostles.

This on the face of it— does this suggest no need for the sacremental system of confession via the authority of apostolic sucession, because Christ gave this ability to all the disciples, all his followers.

Looking for help on this big time.

God bless

m.

Hello, blackfish… I might get challenged on this, but I “think” this is how we might view the power to bind and loose, as even more encompassing than forgiving or retaining sins.

In Matthew 18, yes, all the leaders of the Church, as a body, are given the power to declare. However, since Peter is given the same power separately in Matthew 16, the single representative of Jesus in that office has sole power to declare (including veto power) over all the Church, if he chooses to use it.

A. If a pope does not challenge what is being consistently taught throughout the Church, I would suppose it is recognized as valid, even without a Pope’s distinct blessing (Matt.18 in action).

B. But, if a pope disagrees with a widely accepted teaching of the rest of the bishops, and rules against it, then we have Matt.16 in action. (I propose racial slavery as an example…since 1430 popes had been consistently ruling against it, while many bishops and other clergy were trying to teach the other direction)

(I’m hoping somebody can help with some other examples, OK?)

But, regarding your evangelical friend’s discussion of Matt.16, he must still answer “the keys”, and boy, is that a tough one for an evangelical, considering its ties to Isaiah 22.

Your friend is really getting close to some major discoveries, I predict… some which he did not envision when he started…
God willing, he’ll be Catholic in 2 years…

God Bless Us All!

 

[april_hosen]

NotWorthy:

Oooh! So Close! I can forgive someone for stealing from me, but that doesn’t necessarily mean their act of sinning is forgiven by Jesus. All that does is help me to become a better Christian.

A priest, through Christ, can forgive this act and it will be “wiped from their slate”. Other than God, only the priesthood has been given the power to forgive or retain our sins.

NotWorthy

P.S. And yes, I think Porthos was not ridiculing. Picking, maybe… but ridiculing, no. I agree with you that it would be great if font types could convey tones.

Hi NotWorthy,
I’m so glad you posted, thank you. I usaully baisically agree with your posts. The first paragraph. I completely agree! Thats exactly what I was trying to convey. (Its those darn tones again I tell you! )
The second one, not so much. Only Christ can wipe our slate clean. No man, no matter how close to God can forgive and wipe away our sins. Ephesians 4 :10.

Ps- I liked you ‘Ps’ it made me giggle.

 

[april_hosen]

porthos11:

Hi April,

1. Only Jesus can wipe our slate clean. True. Only Jesus’ blood brings forgiveness of sins.
2. The Apostles and everyone else have the ability of forgiving each other. True. Not just the ability, but the requirement. Jesus warns of the harsh consequences of not forgiving those who offend us (see Matthew 18:35; Matthew 5:12). Jesus clearly warns that you cannot retain the sins committed against you, or risk condemnation by God.

However, in John 20:22ff, we see Jesus breathing on his own special circle, meaning he is imparting to them a special share in his own life and the power of the Holy Spirit, and charges them to forgive OR RETAIN sins. By retain, this does not mean the Apostles had the privilege of not forgiving those who offend them; that would violate Matthew 18:35. No, this means the Apostles had the power to pronounce forgiveness and retention of sins committed against other people and against God. But since the Apostles were mere men, they had no power to forgive or retain sins. Rather, it is Jesus who forgives and retains through them. That’s why he had to breathe on them.

Another way of understanding it is that when a person truly repents and resolves never to commit sin again, and comes to Christ’s minister to confess, Christ has already forgiven him for he has opened himself to the mercy of God. The priest merely pronounces for the benefit of the sinner what Christ is saying himself: “I absolve you from your sins.” The priest then adds, “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” making it clear that the forgiveness is not of his own power but only that of God, bringing about the full manifestation of the breath Jesus imparted on his Apostles.

Hi again ,
I agree fully with your 1&2! But a few things are a little foggy, hopefully you can help me clear them up.

" However, in John 20:22ff, we see Jesus breathing on his own special circle"
I’ve looked in two different Bibles, on John 20 :22. The Gideons International and The Scofield Reference Bible. In both Bible’s it fails to mention anything about the Apostles being given the ability to retian sins. EitherI’m not seeing it because it is insanely late right now or it just isn’t in there.
Now your last paragraph, I’m going to have to agree with, because I have never been to Confession. But I’m okay with agreeing in ignorance on this, it makes sense. Thank you for your time.

 

[scylla]

I looked up Ephesians 4:10 and I see no exception or negation of Jesus’s command “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

If I look historically that is the consensus of how everyone saw it too until the reformation.

Can you elaborate please and show me where this is not jiving with you?

As I see it Christ is the authority as he sent the apostles in His name, just like Peter wasn’t able to heal people by his shadow on his own, that was God working through him. Catholics don’t see it as priests on their own, but God working through them.

I was kinda hung up on that too when I was outside the Church thinking to myself how could men do this, they are just sinful men. So were the apostles, yet God did and does work through people. It is not of their own doing it is all God, He chooses to send people. He chose the apostles who laid hands on other men who sent others.
But it is not just guys saying they have or want the authority, like Simon Magus wanted to do, only by people sent
.
Church Militant does a pretty good job explaining,

God Bless
Scylla

 

[Lazerlike42]

april_hosen:

Hi again ,
I agree fully with your 1&2! But a few things are a little foggy, hopefully you can help me clear them up.

" However, in John 20:22ff, we see Jesus breathing on his own special circle"
I’ve looked in two different Bibles, on John 20 :22. The Gideons International and The Scofield Reference Bible. In both Bible’s it fails to mention anything about the Apostles being given the ability to retian sins. EitherI’m not seeing it because it is insanely late right now or it just isn’t in there.
Now your last paragraph, I’m going to have to agree with, because I have never been to Confession. But I’m okay with agreeing in ignorance on this, it makes sense. Thank you for your time.

Do you mean the actual text of the Bible doesn’t mention retaining them ( ), or do you mean the commentary in the Bibles doesn’t mention it?

Either way, it’s because they are both very heavily leaning Protestant Bibles. If it’s in the commentary, it’s just because they don’t want to emphasize this very “Catholic” belief.

If it’s in the TEXT, then they actually went so far as to change God’s Word to eliminate any Catholic references, in which case it should be evidence of how far Protestants can (but not always of course) go to prove their point. I really hope they didn’t do this… this would be absolutely terrible and certainly not the actions expected of Christians!

 

[NotWorthy]

april_hosen:

The second one, not so much. Only Christ can wipe our slate clean. No man, no matter how close to God can forgive and wipe away our sins. Ephesians 4 :10.

John 20:23 - ***Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."
***In Confession, the priest says, “I absolve you, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit”. In other words, the sins that the priest forgives, Jesus “wipes clean from our slate”.****From the USCCB Bible Commentary - "The Council of Trent defined that this power to forgive sins is exercised in the sacrament of penance. See Matthew 16:19; Matthew 18:18."
****Notworthy

P.S. I, too, enjoy your posts, April. For i feel no animosity on your side, just curiosity. God Bless!****

 

[Lazerlike42]

NotWorthy:

John 20:23 - ***Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."
***In Confession, the priest says, “I absolve you, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit”. In other words, the sins that the priest forgives, Jesus “wipes clean from our slate”.****From the USCCB Bible Commentary - “The Council of Trent defined that this power to forgive sins is exercised in the sacrament of penance. See Matthew 16:19; Matthew 18:18.”
****Notworthy

P.S. I, too, enjoy your posts, April. For i feel no animosity on your side, just curiosity. God Bless!****

USCCB Bible Commentary? Is this a book I can buy somewhere or is it just posted online?

 

[porthos11]

april_hosen:

Hi again ,
I agree fully with your 1&2! But a few things are a little foggy, hopefully you can help me clear them up.

" However, in John 20:22ff, we see Jesus breathing on his own special circle"
I’ve looked in two different Bibles, on John 20 :22. The Gideons International and The Scofield Reference Bible. In both Bible’s it fails to mention anything about the Apostles being given the ability to retian sins. EitherI’m not seeing it because it is insanely late right now or it just isn’t in there.

It’s right there in John 20:23. Even the King James Bible has it. So does the NIV. The authority to forgive or retain sins.

 

[NotWorthy]

Lazerlike42:

USCCB Bible Commentary? Is this a book I can buy somewhere or is it just posted online?

I think I phrased this wrong. It’s the New American Bible Commentaries available online on the USCCB web-site.

nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/index.htm

NotWorthy

 

[DianJo]

porthos11:

Hi DianJo,

Actually, so do I. Looking back over it, I think it’s quite over the line. Be assured though that I profess the Church’s sacramental teaching, and this is a lame attempt to try to relate it to binding and loosing. Anyway, I’m convinced you’re right, and I retract this part of my post:

I believe that the entire action of Jesus’ breathing on the apostles and commanding them to forgive or retain sins means they act on his authority and as they forgive or retain sins, it is Christ acting through them.

Porthos,
Thanks for the clarification! It’s sometimes difficult to explain to a non-Catholic - I get tongue-tied trying to do the same thing. I figured you probably meant to say that the Apostles were actually given the power but like I said - that paragraph just got a little wierd for me! Glad you cleared that up! Thanks!

 

[april_hosen]

Well goodness ya’ll,
I’m stuck! It just doesnt seem right, because like scylla said, the Apostles were sinful men. Just like we are sinful men and women today.Buuuuut in Mathew 9:6, the Jesus says " But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins." And I know, I know, it doesnt say that only He can forgive sins, but it doesnt say that anyone else can either. But hold on to your britches I have another verse! 1 John 2 :1-2, " My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteouse. And He Himself is THE propitiation for our sins, and not only for ours onle but also for the whole world." If you didnt notice, it says He is *the propriation for our sins not an *propriation for our sins. Could anyone tell if the their Bible says anything different, thanks!

 

[april_hosen]

NotWorthy:

John 20:23 - Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."
******In Confession, the priest says, “I absolve you, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit”. In other words, the sins that the priest forgives, Jesus “wipes clean from our slate”.From the USCCB Bible Commentary - “The Council of Trent defined that this power to forgive sins is exercised in the sacrament of penance. See Matthew 16:19; Matthew 18:18.”
Notworthy

P.S. I, too, enjoy your posts, April. For i feel no animosity on your side, just curiosity. God Bless!

Hello again NotWorthy,
How are you today, sir? I’m not seeing how your verses pertain to what you are saying. I understand them, I just dont see the connection. would you mind elaborating?
Ps- The feeling’s mutual

 

[NotWorthy]

april_hosen:

Hello again NotWorthy,
How are you today, sir? I’m not seeing how your verses pertain to what you are saying. I understand them, I just dont see the connection. would you mind elaborating?
Ps- The feeling’s mutual

I’m sorry if its not clear. In John 20:23 doesn’t Jesus give the apostles the power to forgive sins (or to remit those sins)? Yes, Jesus is the one that absolves those sins, but he needs earthly mediators to be our confessors. Catholics teach that this ability was passed on through holy orders to the priesthood for the last 2000 years.

What the Catholic Church teaches, is that when a priest forgives a person’s sins in confession, it is Jesus that is washing the stain of this sin from the person’s soul (or wiping his slate clean).

Notworthy

 

[TNT]

april_hosen:

Hello again NotWorthy,
How are you today, sir? I’m not seeing how your verses pertain to what you are saying. I understand them, I just dont see the connection. would you mind elaborating?
Ps- The feeling’s mutual

Just curious: Are you Baptized?
If so, did you, Jesus (THE ONLY propitiation) baptise you, or did some other sinful human…in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost?
If you were baptised, what, exactly was effected by that baptism?

You mentioned “so that you may know the Son of man has the power…” Why, do you suppose that He did not say Son of God, which He was.
Is not the “Son of Man” His Human nature?
Is not the “Son of God” His Divine (God) Nature?
If so, why does he say His Human nature has the power?

 

[april_hosen]

Hi TNT,
Indeed, I am baptized. I am afterall I am a Baptist, it’d be kinda odd if I wasnt baptized. But anyway!
Baptism is completely different from saying that a man can literally forgive another mans sins. That is what we are insinuating, correct? We’re talking about my pastor dunking me under water, which symbolizes me going from my life of sin to being cleansed by the Living Water/ Jesus and coming out clean. Granted my pastor is immitating the role of Jesus in this symbol of baptism. But it’s important to understand he is imitating Christ. He doesnt claim to actually have the ability to cleanse my sins as Christ does.
The thing is the job of saving the world from their sins has been filled and fufilled (John 19:30, Jesus said"It is finished.") . And the Boss likes Jesus’ work (Mark 16:18, Jesus ascends into Heaven). Nothing/No one else can quite do it the way He does (1 John 2:2). Jesus is perfect, there’s no topping Him (2 Samuel 22:31).
Now regarding your last paragraph I dont have the answer right now, but I will come back to you when I find it out.

PS- I appologize, does this make sense? Like I’ve said before its all about the tone of voice. It is such a huge part of communication! So just as a topper, I want you to know I love you my brother in Christ.

 

[april_hosen]

NotWorthy:

I’m sorry if its not clear. In John 20:23 doesn’t Jesus give the apostles the power to forgive sins (or to remit those sins)? Yes, Jesus is the one that absolves those sins, but he needs earthly mediators to be our confessors. Catholics teach that this ability was passed on through holy orders to the priesthood for the last 2000 years.

What the Catholic Church teaches, is that when a priest forgives a person’s sins in confession, it is Jesus that is washing the stain of this sin from the person’s soul (or wiping his slate clean).

Notworthy

Huh,
Thats intresting. I appologize, I’m lacking in words to say right now. But if the Lord lays something on me, I promise, I wont be shy about it.

 

[Milliardo]

april_hosen:

Granted my pastor is immitating the role of Jesus in this symbol of baptism. But it’s important to understand he is imitating Christ. He doesnt claim to actually have the ability to cleanse my sins as Christ does.

No priest as well claims to have the ability to forgive sins; the priest acts in behalf of Christ. Think of it this way: the priest is Christ’s ambassador. The ambassador acts in behalf of the President, since he represents his nation. The same way a priest is then. So it is still fully Jesus. I think some have this misunderstanding regarding the mystery behind it: why does God act through men? We see that in the Bible so many times, from the Old Testament onwards. God made known His message through His prophets; do any of us question that? Of course not. The same way then that the Sacraments are conferred through His servants, the bishops and priests. It is, quite simply, God’s will, and we as well know that His wisdom is greater than ours.

The thing is the job of saving the world from their sins has been filled and fufilled (John 19:30, Jesus said"It is finished.") . And the Boss likes Jesus’ work (Mark 16:18, Jesus ascends into Heaven). Nothing/No one else can quite do it the way He does (1 John 2:2). Jesus is perfect, there’s no topping Him (2 Samuel 22:31).

Yes, but note as well that we see Jesus commissioning His Apostles to forgive or not forgive sins in John 20. Now, if it’s all finished and all, why would Jesus give this command to His Apostles? Let’s take this a bit further: why do we still need to preach if that work of salvation is finished then? Or does God intend to let man as well participate in that act of salvation? As for Jesus’ words in John 19:30, Scott Hahn has an interesting take on that, which is related to the Eucharist, but that is already a digression on the topic.