Did Christ redeem the Holy Angels?

[Savagedds]

Hi All,

First Corinthians 18-20 states:

*He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the first-born from the dead, that in everything he might be pre-eminent. For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross *(RSV, emphasis mine).

So my question is this: the Holy Angels never sinned, but exist as part of the natural order although they exist in eternity. It seems to me that as part of our fallen world, this passage would apply to them as well, that Christ must have redeemed them when He redeemed us.

After all, Mary never sinned either and she was redeemed by Christ.

Am I correct on this point? Does anyone know whether theologians have an opinion about this?

Thanks and Pax Christi,

Jim

 

[crazzeto]

The Holy Angels didn’t need to be redeemed, they never fell. The fallen Angels have never been, and never will be redeemed.

 

[ckempston]

The Holy Angels didn’t need to be redeemed, they never fell. The fallen Angels have never been, and never will be redeemed.

Then what is this passage saying? Aliens?

 

[Reepicheep]

In Scripture, the word “Heaven” has more than one meaning.
The passage being quoted does not necessarily mean the abode of the blessed souls and of the holy angels.

 

[ckempston]

In Scripture, the word “Heaven” has more than one meaning.
The passage being quoted does not necessarily mean the abode of the blessed souls and of the holy angels.

Likewise, Holy does not mean sinless.

 

[Fidelis]

This is what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says about the angels:

THE FALL OF THE ANGELS

391 Behind the disobedient choice of our first parents lurks a seductive voice, opposed to God, which makes them fall into death out of envy. Scripture and the Church’s Tradition see in this being a fallen angel, called “Satan” or the “devil”. The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: “The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing.”

392 Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels. This “fall” consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter’s words to our first parents: “You will be like God.” The devil “has sinned from the beginning”; he is “a liar and the father of lies”.

393 It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels’ sin unforgivable. “There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death.”

If there is no repentence for the angels, then the fruits of the Redemtion cannot be applied to them. Angels are considered a different part of creation than is man, and both are different than animals. The Sciptures tell us that Jesus is the Savior of man, while at the same time being Lord of all.

 

[Nita]

He is the head of the body, the church

It is saying that those humans who have the life of sanctifying grace in their souls are reconciled with God – both those who are in a state of grace here on earth, and those who are in the state of grace in the next world (those in heaven).

(Note the context of the text is the church.)

 

[ckempston]

It is saying that those humans who have the life of sanctifying grace in their souls are reconciled with God – both those who are in a state of grace here on earth, and those who are in the state of grace in the next world (those in heaven).

(Note the context of the text is the church.)

I think you’d have a hard time Scripturally, or otherwise doctrinally, supporting that assertion. Nobody was in heaven before Jesus ascended, so it doesn’t really make sense to say that he would reconcile those in heaven. In fact, if they’re in heaven, then they’re in no need of reconciliation. Those who have passed on, regardless of their state of Grace were in Sheol/Hades (i.e. Jesus led captives in his train when he ascended), not heaven.

 

[Nita]

I think you’d have a hard time Scripturally, or otherwise doctrinally, supporting that assertion. Nobody was in heaven before Jesus ascended, so it doesn’t really make sense to say that he would reconcile those in heaven. In fact, if they’re in heaven, then they’re in no need of reconciliation. Those who have passed on, regardless of their state of Grace were in Sheol/Hades (i.e. Jesus led captives in his train when he ascended), not heaven.

I agree, there was no human in heaven before Jesus redeemed mankind. But **the reconciliation of those who had died previously, took place “in heaven” – not “on earth”. ** (Eg. Moses, Abraham,… would not be included in the category of what was reconciled on earth; rather, they would be included in the category of what was reconciled in heaven.)
Those living on earth after Christ’s redemption, are able to be reconciled here – reconciled while still “on earth”.

Hope this clarifies what I meant.

 

[MatthewBerkeley]

Can someone please explain to me the origin of the Church’s teaching on the angels - how they came to be with full knowledge, then had to pass some kind of test to be in God’s presence and that Satan and the fallen angels rejected God… Where does this come from?

 

[thistle]

Can someone please explain to me the origin of the Church’s teaching on the angels - how they came to be with full knowledge, then had to pass some kind of test to be in God’s presence and that Satan and the fallen angels rejected God… Where does this come from?

2 Peter 2:4
For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but condemned them to the chains of Tartarus and handed them over to be kept for judgment;

John 8:44
You belong to your father the devil and you willingly carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in truth, because there is no truth in him. When he tells a lie, he speaks in character, because he is a liar and the father of lies.

1 John 3:8
Whoever sins belongs to the devil, because the devil has sinned from the beginning. Indeed, the Son of God was revealed to destroy the works of the devil.

Rev 12:9 9
The huge dragon, the ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, who deceived the whole world, was thrown down to earth, and its angels were thrown down with it.

Also read Church documents of Lateran Council IV (1215): DS 800.

 

[Savagedds]

The Holy Angels didn’t need to be redeemed, they never fell. The fallen Angels have never been, and never will be redeemed.

Mary never sinned either, and she was immaculately conceived, yet all agree that she did indeed need to be redeemed and saved by Christ – albeit in a different manner than other humans are saved.

So being sinless doesn’t preclude the need for redemption for humans, my question remains did the Holy Angels also need redemption as part of creation, in light of the passage previously quoted?

 

[Savagedds]

In Scripture, the word “Heaven” has more than one meaning.
The passage being quoted does not necessarily mean the abode of the blessed souls and of the holy angels.

Agreed, and in that context Paul could have been talking about birds which are part of the creation that Jesus reconciled to God, so that seems possible.

But what about the Holy Angels, who are also part of creation??

 

[Savagedds]

Hi All,

First Corinthians 18-20 states:

He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the first-born from the dead, that in everything he might be pre-eminent. For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross (RSV, emphasis mine).

So my question is this: the Holy Angels never sinned, but exist as part of the natural order although they exist in eternity. It seems to me that as part of our fallen world, this passage would apply to them as well, that Christ must have redeemed them when He redeemed us.

After all, Mary never sinned either and she was redeemed by Christ.

Am I correct on this point? Does anyone know whether theologians have an opinion about this?

Thanks and Pax Christi,

Jim

Sorry everyone, this is actually Colossians 1:18-20.

 

[Savagedds]

This is what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says about the angels:
If there is no repentence for the angels, then the fruits of the Redemtion cannot be applied to them. Angels are considered a different part of creation than is man, and both are different than animals. The Sciptures tell us that Jesus is the Savior of man, while at the same time being Lord of all.

I agree with what you say, but these paragraphs from the CCC tell me about the fallen angels, not about whether the Holy ones needed a redeemer.

 

[Fidelis]

I agree with what you say, but these paragraphs from the CCC tell me about the fallen angels, not about whether the Holy ones needed a redeemer.

Actually, a careful re-reading of the CCC section in question reveals that it refers to the fact that the angels *in general *at some point (before the fall of man, some theologians say) were offered a choice to serve God or not. Some chose God and some did not (approximately a third, as implied in Revelation 12). Just like, because of their nature, the choice of the bad angels was final and irrevocable, so was the choice of the good angels being of the same nature. Thus, just as the bad angels could not be redeemed, the good angels did not need to be redeemed.

 

[Savagedds]

Actually, a careful re-reading of the CCC section in question reveals that it refers to the fact that the angels *in general *at some point (before the fall of man, some theologians say) were offered a choice to serve God or not. Some chose God and some did not (approximately a third, as implied in Revelation 12). Just like, because of their nature, the choice of the bad angels was final and irrevocable, so was the choice of the good angels being of the same nature. Thus, just as the bad angels could not be redeemed, the good angels did not need to be redeemed.

I understand the important difference between humans and angels. Christ redeemed all of humanity but not all humans will be saved, only those who die in a state of grace. The difference between humans and angels is that unlike humans who can fall or repent any number of times up to the point of death, angels made one perfect, permanent, irrevocable choice only once.

My original question is still unanswered though: without the Redeemer, humans would have no choice to make, we would all be damned. Even if, as some assert, the angels had already made their choices before Adam and Eve were created, were the Holy Angels redeemed by Christ along with the rest of creation? And if they had no need of redemption, then why did Immaculate Mary need redemption?

So you see, that question is not answered by these particular paragraphs of the Catechism unless I’m just not seeing it.

I have very much enjoyed everyone’s (name removed by moderator)ut but I notice that no one has referenced a position of the Church on this point.

Thanks,

Jim

 

[Evan]

The angels could not be redeemed as man was redeemed. We are all related to Adam whose sin is part of all of us.

Each angel is a unique creation. They are not related to each other. So a sin of one is not imputed on the others. If the first angel sinned, no other angel has any relation to the sinful one.

God could not become an ‘angel’ to redeem them because angel is not what they are but what they do (it means messenger).

God could become man, we are all one race, all related through Adam. By becoming man he became like us. Should he become an angel he would be unique, different from all other angels and any actions of this God-angle would not have any effect on other angels.

This is also why the Holy Angels do not need a redeemer. They never sinned. And the sin of one does not give them an ‘original sin’ nature.

This is also why mary immaculate needed a redeemer, she was related to Adam and could have had original sin if not protected from it’s effects by a redeemer.