Did Christianity miss its "feminist movement" window?

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One of the interesting quirks of history is how much negative attention is put to the Middle and High Middle Ages (as part of the agenda of minds that were hostile to the Church), in spite of all the important and interesting advancements during the time. One of them is the expanded rights of women as Europe transitioned from paganism into Christianity, and there is evidence of the development of women owning their own shops and businesses, however this trend seemed to be snuffed out by the time of the Renaissance for various reasons.

Did Christianity, in a sense, miss its opportunity for a women’s rights movement within the context of orthodoxy? The later women’s rights movement of the 19th century and into the 20th century isn’t at all entirely bad, but it is unquestionable that it has been mixed with movements such as abortion, divorce, and a soured image of motherhood in some circles. In other words, it was as much about ‘power’ as it was about ‘dignity’. How different do you suppose it could have been if feminism in the Middle Ages didn’t later experience a decline?

What do you think?
 
I will forgo my views on the repugnant modern feminists and their goals, or maybe I just provided a hint, but I will say, as I see it, their political movement/agenda has no place in the Apostolic Church.

I do not see missing that window as anything less than a glorious blessing.
 
Interesting question.

Funny I saw a documentary last week about the suffragettes and what they did to evenutally win rights for women in the U.K. I don’t think these women should be forgotten.
Can you imagine if women didn’t fight then for basic rights and acknowledgment of being a intelligent, powerful mind as much as men what we might have to be doing now?
I’m not sure why some people assume women are all “feminists” when they seek rights to be just as fully a human and contribute to society along side men.

We’ll always have some crazy mad extremist humans from every walk of life shouting in everyones face about what we should allow and what we shouldn’t, but it doesn’t mean everyone is like that.

This also makes me think of the whole agrument of women priests. But lets not go there, on the other hand, the women deacons agrument I believe was never fully settled?

Some say the clear evidence of women as deacons was Romans 16 1-2.

16 I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon[a]** of the church in Cenchreae. 2 I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of his people and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been the benefactor of many people, including me.**
 
One of the interesting quirks of history is how much negative attention is put to the Middle and High Middle Ages (as part of the agenda of minds that were hostile to the Church), in spite of all the important and interesting advancements during the time. One of them is the expanded rights of women as Europe transitioned from paganism into Christianity, and there is evidence of the development of women owning their own shops and businesses, however this trend seemed to be snuffed out by the time of the Renaissance for various reasons.

Did Christianity, in a sense, miss its opportunity for a women’s rights movement within the context of orthodoxy? The later women’s rights movement of the 19th century and into the 20th century isn’t at all entirely bad, but it is unquestionable that it has been mixed with movements such as abortion, divorce, and a soured image of motherhood in some circles. In other words, it was as much about ‘power’ as it was about ‘dignity’. How different do you suppose it could have been if feminism in the Middle Ages didn’t later experience a decline?

What do you think?
I think there was an orthodox development of progress in the rights of women from the 1100s forward. First, a literary genre was developed specifically for the defense and praise of women. (A. Blamires, The Case for Women in Medieval Culture, Oxford, U.K.: Oxford University Press. 1997. pp. 19-21) Marbodius of Rennes’ essay “On Good Women” is possibly the first surviving work in this genre and was published in about 1102 A.D. The next is Peter Abelard’s “On the Authority and Dignity of the Order of Nuns,” which is unparalleled in its praise of women. Next comes the Livre des Maneires by Etienne de Fougeres, compiled in the 1170s. This genre would continue to be added to in the 1200s and 1300s.

Second, in Biblical commentaries, there is a notable increase in the number of authors who defend the equality of male and female on the basis of their being created in the image of God. Authors such as Herve of Bourg-Dieu, Peter of Celle, Gilbert Poretta, and Rupert of Deutz can be cited in this regard. (B. Newman, Sister of Wisdom: St. Hildegard’s Theology of the Feminine, Berkely, CA: University of California Press, 1989. p. 91.) This also continued into the 1200s and 1300s.

Third, in conjunction with the increase of literacy and educational status of the rest of Europe due to the rise of the universities, there is also a large increase in original women writers during these years. Apart from Trotula of Salerno, Anna Komnene, and St. Hildegard of Bingen, all of whom were well-educated authors and teachers, there is a large number of female poets in this period, such as Marie de France. The Troubairitz are an example of this at a wider scale – this women’s artistic movement developed as a collection of female lyricists who were often court poets for the kingdoms that were then growing in strength throughout Europe.

Fourth, in women’s leadership, Matilda of Tuscany illustrates one of the more unique cases in the middle ages: she was a woman who engaged in successful military pursuits and was entrusted as the principal defender of the papacy during the investiture controversy.

Finally, I think a case could be made that the rediscovery of the Laws of Justinian helped women in Western countries as his laws began to be studied and argued for in the universities. His Novella 21 declared, “no difference shall be made between male and female…[and] women shall not be deprived…of the equality which they enjoy among us, but our laws shall apply equally to all.” Evidence that this was being implemented in the West after his laws were rediscovered during the Italian Renaissance include the 1231 Constitutions of Melfi, the 1316 Statutes of Cessari, and the 1392 Carta de Logu.

The latter two laws granted married women independent possession of property separate from their husbands, and ruled that any property acquired after marriage could only be disposed of by mutual consent. They also required that men and women both share equally in the inheritance of their parents. (John Day, “On the Status of Women in Medieval Sardinia.” In Kirshner & Wemple, Women in the Medieval World. Chapter 12. 1985. New York, NY: Basil Blackwell, Inc. p. 304-306)

The 1231 Constitutions of Melfi granted the women of Southern Italy “full restitution of legal status” and declared “[W]ith contracts, [women] can not only be present but also have the presence of judges and guardians and procurators…” (Constitutions of Melfi, Titles XLI & XLIV, as translated in Amt, E. Women’s Lives in Medieval Europe: A Sourcebook. Part II: Women and the Law, section 15, Laws of Sicily. 2013. London, England: Routledge Publishing. p. 45-48)

These laws were not repealed in the later period of the Italian Renaissance. Instead, what we find in the later Renaissance/Reformation period is an increase of Catholic authors wishing to grant increased rights to women, such as the right to education. Juan Luis Vives is probably the best example of this, but it also shows up in the writings of St. Thomas More and Richard Hyrde, and in the same period you find women such as Beatriz Galindo being granted teaching positions and/or degrees from Catholic universities. In 1566 the Catechism of the Council of Trent declared the equality of all people, specifically including women, as part of the Church’s counter-Reformation (Roman Catechism Part IV, Chapter 39, Section II), and in the 1600s you find faithful Catholics taking up the same doctrines in the New World (with Sister Juana Ines de la Cruz) as well as in Europe (with Bishop Fenelon).

I could go on, but suffice it to say that I don’t think the Catholic Church missed the opportunity for women’s improvement, but rather was a driving force behind an alternative tradition of women’s equality that has largely gone unnoticed by contemporary feminist literature.
 
I think there was an orthodox development of progress in the rights of women from the 1100s forward. First, a literary genre was developed specifically for the defense and praise of women. (A. Blamires, The Case for Women in Medieval Culture, Oxford, U.K.: Oxford University Press. 1997. pp. 19-21) Marbodius of Rennes’ essay “On Good Women” is possibly the first surviving work in this genre and was published in about 1102 A.D. The next is Peter Abelard’s “On the Authority and Dignity of the Order of Nuns,” which is unparalleled in its praise of women. Next comes the Livre des Maneires by Etienne de Fougeres, compiled in the 1170s. This genre would continue to be added to in the 1200s and 1300s.

Second, in Biblical commentaries, there is a notable increase in the number of authors who defend the equality of male and female on the basis of their being created in the image of God. Authors such as Herve of Bourg-Dieu, Peter of Celle, Gilbert Poretta, and Rupert of Deutz can be cited in this regard. (B. Newman, Sister of Wisdom: St. Hildegard’s Theology of the Feminine, Berkely, CA: University of California Press, 1989. p. 91.) This also continued into the 1200s and 1300s.

Third, in conjunction with the increase of literacy and educational status of the rest of Europe due to the rise of the universities, there is also a large increase in original women writers during these years. Apart from Trotula of Salerno, Anna Komnene, and St. Hildegard of Bingen, all of whom were well-educated authors and teachers, there is a large number of female poets in this period, such as Marie de France. The Troubairitz are an example of this at a wider scale – this women’s artistic movement developed as a collection of female lyricists who were often court poets for the kingdoms that were then growing in strength throughout Europe.

Fourth, in women’s leadership, Matilda of Tuscany illustrates one of the more unique cases in the middle ages: she was a woman who engaged in successful military pursuits and was entrusted as the principal defender of the papacy during the investiture controversy.

Finally, I think a case could be made that the rediscovery of the Laws of Justinian helped women in Western countries as his laws began to be studied and argued for in the universities. His Novella 21 declared, “no difference shall be made between male and female…[and] women shall not be deprived…of the equality which they enjoy among us, but our laws shall apply equally to all.” Evidence that this was being implemented in the West after his laws were rediscovered during the Italian Renaissance include the 1231 Constitutions of Melfi, the 1316 Statutes of Cessari, and the 1392 Carta de Logu.

The latter two laws granted married women independent possession of property separate from their husbands, and ruled that any property acquired after marriage could only be disposed of by mutual consent. They also required that men and women both share equally in the inheritance of their parents. (John Day, “On the Status of Women in Medieval Sardinia.” In Kirshner & Wemple, Women in the Medieval World. Chapter 12. 1985. New York, NY: Basil Blackwell, Inc. p. 304-306)

The 1231 Constitutions of Melfi granted the women of Southern Italy “full restitution of legal status” and declared “[W]ith contracts, [women] can not only be present but also have the presence of judges and guardians and procurators…” (Constitutions of Melfi, Titles XLI & XLIV, as translated in Amt, E. Women’s Lives in Medieval Europe: A Sourcebook. Part II: Women and the Law, section 15, Laws of Sicily. 2013. London, England: Routledge Publishing. p. 45-48)

These laws were not repealed in the later period of the Italian Renaissance. Instead, what we find in the later Renaissance/Reformation period is an increase of Catholic authors wishing to grant increased rights to women, such as the right to education. Juan Luis Vives is probably the best example of this, but it also shows up in the writings of St. Thomas More and Richard Hyrde, and in the same period you find women such as Beatriz Galindo being granted teaching positions and/or degrees from Catholic universities. In 1566 the Catechism of the Council of Trent declared the equality of all people, specifically including women, as part of the Church’s counter-Reformation (Roman Catechism Part IV, Chapter 39, Section II), and in the 1600s you find faithful Catholics taking up the same doctrines in the New World (with Sister Juana Ines de la Cruz) as well as in Europe (with Bishop Fenelon).

I could go on, but suffice it to say that I don’t think the Catholic Church missed the opportunity for women’s improvement, but rather was a driving force behind an alternative tradition of women’s equality that has largely gone unnoticed by contemporary feminist literature.
Let’s don’t forget, the Catholic Church holds up Motherhood, with great dignity and sets the example before us of the Blessed Mother. And she holds up so many Holy women and Saints too. Convents full of dedicated. holy women that have done sooo much for centuries to help the Church. Hospitals, schools, orphaniges, etc. Where else do you find that??? The Church will never condone evil in Men or Women. Actually I believe the ‘feminists movement’ today is far more cruel to women and their babies than ever before in man’s history. God Bless, Memaw
 
I’d consider the two Marys—Jesus’ mother and Mary Magdalene, early feminists.

Mother Mary allegedly lived a very unconventional life–bears a baby (and not just any baby, but…God) as a virgin, got married but did not have sex with her husband* ever*, did not have any children after that (right?), and lives the rest of her life with her son’s well-loved friend instead of other family members. She did not follow the prescribed path for a woman of that day.

Mary M…she’s independent financially, meets an unconventional preacher, chucks everything and stays single and follows this charismatic teacher around…not only that, she helps to finance his travels and teaching. She’s independent and on her own, boldly following what she believes to be true against the ideas of the time.
Then after Jesus dies, she becomes the first preacher of this resurrection and after that, goes and preaches on her own in Rome and Italy, etc…very daring for a woman of that time. As for Mary M. being independently wealthy, I don’t recall anyone ever saying that.

So the “feminist” movement in Christianity was alive and well and there from the start, I’d say. It just got thwarted.

.
The Blessed Mother was married,( Betrothed, that’s married in those days.) to Joseph when the Angel appeared to her. Do you really think God would put her in such a situation??? If they weren’t married, then why did Joseph have the choice to ‘divorce her quietly’ when he found her to be with a child he knew wasn’t his. Then the Angel appeared to him in a dream and explained it all, and he took her into his home as was the custom then. The marriage took place about a year before they moved in the their home.

As for Mary M. being independently wealthy, I don’t recall anyone ever saying that or that she financed Jesus or his teachings. God Bless, Memaw
 
I’d consider the two Marys—Jesus’ mother and Mary Magdalene, early feminists.

Mother Mary allegedly lived a very unconventional life–bears a baby (and not just any baby, but…God) as a virgin, got married but did not have sex with her husband* ever*, did not have any children after that (right?), and lives the rest of her life with her son’s well-loved friend instead of other family members. She did not follow the prescribed path for a woman of that day.

Mary M…she’s independent financially, meets an unconventional preacher, chucks everything and stays single and follows this charismatic teacher around…not only that, she helps to finance his travels and teaching. She’s independent and on her own, boldly following what she believes to be true against the ideas of the time.
Then after Jesus dies, she becomes the first preacher of this resurrection and after that, goes and preaches on her own in Rome and Italy, etc…very daring for a woman of that time.

So the “feminist” movement in Christianity was alive and well and there from the start, I’d say. It just got thwarted.

.
“Thwarted?” How exactly? You mean that after the Blessed Mother and Mary Magdalen (you also didn’t mention Priscilla and Dorcas who were also mentioned in the NT) there was never any ‘feminine’ presence to match in Christianity?

What about Heloise? Hildegard of Bingen? Julian of Norwich? The early saints (Felicity, Perpetua, Agatha, Lucy, Cecelia, Catherine, Anastasia, Agnes)? St Scholastica, sister of Benedict? Monica the mother of St Augustine? Helena, who found the true cross? St Clare? St Catherine of Siena, who was a key in bringing the papacy back to Rome? Joan of Arc? Rosa of Lima? And in the more modern times, what about our own St Elizabeth Seton?

I think people forget that there were plenty of active female Christians who weren’t ‘just wives and mothers’ but who were writers, teachers, scholars. . .not to mention that for those who were ‘simply’ just ‘girls’, or ‘just mothers’, their lives mattered just as much as any man’s.
 
Feminism, as marketed today, harms women and encourages them to be separate from men. Overthrow the patriarchy, including the Church! Get those womenpriests in there!

Thank God, the Church will not have to deal with that, while clearly teaching the true roles of men and women and strengthening the families.

Peace,
Ed
 
.
??
I did specifically point out that Jesus’ mother, Mary, got married.
God put her in the situation that she was pregnant without having sex.

Re Mary M and the $$$:

“Soon afterwards Jesus went on through cities and villages, proclaiming and bringing the good news of the kingdom of God. The twelve were with him, as well as some women who had been cured of evil spirits and infirmities: Mary, called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had gone out…and many others,** who provided for them out of their resources.”**
** -----Luke 8:1-3**

.
You said, "Bears a baby as a virgin, got married, as tho the baby came first. She was already married to Joseph before the Angel appeared to her but the custom was that the couple waited up to a year before moving in to their home together. That gave them time to get the home ready. That was their custom.

“Out of their resources,” doesn’t necessarily mean wealth. The ladies, (and MANY others) could have provided meals for them. Wasn’t just her. God Bless. Memaw
 
That’s not the feminism that I and thousand of my fellow females know. The one I know helps women and encourages strength.
Sounds like you are talking about a few extremists, as any group has–even Catholicism and Christianity.

.
Look at the harm those 'few" extreme feminests have done to our society. Especially to the family and its babies. God Bless, Memaw
 
I was once in a debate with a boy in my religion class, and due to the nature of the class, I ended up having to defend a position that I did not believe- namely, that Christianity is as sexist as Islam, in practice if not in theory. I forget exactly what I said, but it was something about the various ways women are disrespected in the west, and the ways in which they have historically been limited in Christian cultures.

His answer was that Christianity couldn’t be sexist, because after all, Jesus had a mother and the first person he appeared to after the resurrection was a woman. I found this hilarious, because everyone has a mother, and the “first convert” in Islam is a woman (which we learned about in the class). He could not see that acknowledging the importance of one or two women does not mean that the same religion/culture/organization can’t turn around and hold women back due to their gender. The fact that Islam’s first convert was a woman does nothing to stop honor killings, for example.

So while I see what the people upthread are saying by listing Catholic saints, I think it’s telling that even though these women were incredibly important, we hear about them less than certain male saints. I do think that Catholicism gives more respect to important women than other branches of Christianity, though. When I was Protestant, I remember complaining to my school that there were no female parts in the school play other than Jezebel, because it was the story of Elijah. I asked if it would be better to do a story that had some female parts, to include more students.

The seminarian told me it wasn’t his fault there weren’t any women in the Bible. :rolleyes:
 
That’s not the feminism that I and thousand of my fellow females know. The one I know helps women and encourages strength.
Sounds like you are talking about a few extremists, as any group has–even Catholicism and Christianity.

.
Go to the National Organization for Women web site.

Go to any post about pro-abortion rallies. Go to any post about anti-abortion rallies. You’ll note that in almost every case, the media will do a great job of reporting on pro-abortion rallies and a poor job covering anti-abortion rallies or not even covering them at all.

Peace,
Ed
 
One of the interesting quirks of history is how much negative attention is put to the Middle and High Middle Ages (as part of the agenda of minds that were hostile to the Church), in spite of all the important and interesting advancements during the time. One of them is the expanded rights of women as Europe transitioned from paganism into Christianity, and there is evidence of the development of women owning their own shops and businesses, however this trend seemed to be snuffed out by the time of the Renaissance for various reasons.
The Renaissance? You mean when Elizabeth I was queen of England? That Renaissance?
If you look at the Italian Renaissance, there were lots of very active, powerful women. Lots.

But it is interesting, as Kenneth Clark once asserted, that a good part of the West turned patriarchal during and after the Reformation. Interestingly, he points to the dearth of images in protestant churches, as contrasted with Catholic churches of the same period that were “filled with images of women and babies”. He compared European Protestantism to ultra-masculine Islam and early Judaism in that regard as well as in the way women were regarded.

But we shouldn’t overstate things. One of the foremost “robber barons” of the 19th Century U.S. was a woman. Hattie something-or-other. Can’t remember the last name, though I read the book about her life. And I think women bore more responsibility, given the context of what people actually did for a living, than I think we sometimes believe.
 
They don’t call Rome the Eternal City for nothing. Ask anyone who has gone through Church courts for a declaration of nullity for a failed marriage.

The Church is always slow to respond to a challenge. The response is measured and rational as it consults both experts in multiple fields and the sense of the people. The Council of Trent did not hold its first session until 1545 in response to the 95 Theses of Martin Luther in 1517 and it took until 1563 to finish its work.

John Paul II made a great response to feminist errors with his theology of the body, and it was only in 1994 that ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS was issued. John Paul II was perfectly in agreement with Humanae Vitae by Paul VI, and all the Sacred Tradition of the Church. Sadly, by that time, positions had hardened and many were not interested in what he had to say. Those who value their own opinions above the authority given to the Church by Christ will eventually have to explain themselves to that same Person who has the authority to judge.
 
They don’t call Rome the Eternal City for nothing. Ask anyone who has gone through Church courts for a declaration of nullity for a failed marriage.

The Church is always slow to respond to a challenge. The response is measured and rational as it consults both experts in multiple fields and the sense of the people. The Council of Trent did not hold its first session until 1545 in response to the 95 Theses of Martin Luther in 1517 and it took until 1563 to finish its work.

John Paul II made a great response to feminist errors with his theology of the body, and it was only in 1994 that ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS was issued. John Paul II was perfectly in agreement with Humanae Vitae by Paul VI, and all the Sacred Tradition of the Church. Sadly, by that time, positions had hardened and many were not interested in what he had to say. Those who value their own opinions above the authority given to the Church by Christ will eventually have to explain themselves to that same Person who has the authority to judge.
AMEN, God Bless, Memaw
 
Let’s don’t forget, the Catholic Church holds up Motherhood, with great dignity and sets the example before us of the Blessed Mother. And she holds up so many Holy women and Saints too. Convents full of dedicated. holy women that have done sooo much for centuries to help the Church. Hospitals, schools, orphaniges, etc. Where else do you find that??? The Church will never condone evil in Men or Women. Actually I believe the ‘feminists movement’ today is far more cruel to women and their babies than ever before in man’s history. God Bless, Memaw
So did Hitler. There was a medal for women who had more than 8 children He also did his best to pull women from the workforce, universities and any position of power.

Motherhood is WONDERFUL. However, the idea that respecting motherhood = not respecting women’s ability to do what was once deemed only suitable for men (like VOTING) is toxic to human dignity. Which, last time I checked, Catholics value highly.
 
Thank God, the Church will not have to deal with that, while clearly teaching the true roles of men and women and strengthening the families.

Peace,
Ed
Excuse me, I notice you seem to possess a male member.
So what EXACTLY is the true role of women?
 
Look at the harm those 'few" extreme feminests have done to our society. Especially to the family and its babies. God Bless, Memaw
Look what a few extremists did in the Spanish Inquisition (yes I know it was overblown but still). Look at what a few extremists did in the First Crusade when they killed everyone in the Holy Land. Look what a few extremists in the movement to make Germany strong after the Treaty of Versailles did.
Extremists are ALWAYS a problem! Do NOT discount the movement for women to have equal rights because of a few misandrists!
 
The problem with patriarchy is usually that the men come to think of women as less capable and worthy because so much of their lives is expended on incubating and raising children. The problem with modern feminism is generally the exact same thing. Look at practically anything Simone de Beauvoir wrote about woman. She regards mothers almost the same way that misogynist men used to.

The reality is that women are privileged to be able to do that which no man CAN do. A healthy culture will revere, honor and hold that role and value up as unique and precious without trying to use it to deny that women otherwise have practically all the other skills and gifts men do.

But as in most things, (apologies to Chesterton) the reformers are right about what is wrong, but wrong about what is right. Same old story…
 
The problem with patriarchy is usually that the men come to think of women as less capable and worthy because so much of their lives is expended on incubating and raising children. The problem with modern feminism is generally the exact same thing. Look at practically anything Simone de Beauvoir wrote about woman. She regards mothers almost the same way that misogynist men used to.

The reality is that women are privileged to be able to do that which no man CAN do. A healthy culture will revere, honor and hold that role and value up as unique and precious without trying to use it to deny that women otherwise have practically all the other skills and gifts men do.

But as in most things, (apologies to Chesterton) the reformers are right about what is wrong, but wrong about what is right. Same old story…
Yes the role of child rearing is to be honored. But that should be done independent of gender.
 
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