Did early Christians fear falling into Mortal Sin so often as many do today?

[RealisticCatholic]

It’s not about conservative or liberal.

Catholic doctrine teaches mortal sin, and it has attempted to specify what counts as grave matter in the last 1,000 years.

What I mean is, it’s not necessarily reaction against “progressives” that causes concern for mortal sin. I think a lot of it is simply how we understand Mortal Sin to begin with.

There are two extremes to avoid: Mere “fundamental option” where our acts don’t matter, merely the intention, on the one hand. And then the other extreme: The legalism that says if you do such and such, it is objectively so grave that there’s no doubt about its implications for the soul.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

“Grave Matter” is not the same thing as “mortal sin”.

With respect to conservative v. liberal, your original post assumes that everybody out there is talking about mortal sin, finding mortal sin, worrying about mortal sin.

I guarantee you that as I said, the vast majority of Catholics out there in the pews who don’t hang around on CAF or Church Militant or Lifesite or watch Fr. Chad Ripperger or read Fr. Z couldn’t care less about discussing “mortal sin”. Many of them haven’t even been to confession in years and don’t have any clear picture of what a “mortal sin” is, nor do they want to sit around thinking about it.

You are simply kidding yourself if you think Catholics all sit around fearing mortal sin and finding mortal sins in others all the time. A percentage of them do. Most don’t.

 

[Canvas]

Just wanted to put in there that it’s worth noting that in the early days of the church, “mortal sin” was very strictly defined to very few things. Primarily adultery and murder. It was BIG DEAL STUFF, not as wide as it is these days, so comparison is hard. Not that mortal sin should be glossed over these days, of course!

I’d also argue that you’d see far more devout Christians, especially in the first 400 years because of persecution. NO ONE was Christian because it was “what the family did” or was “cool” or “culturally significant”. To be a Christian was to be the object of ridicule. People really only stuck with it because they had real, fire-tested faith. So I think that has a lot to do with it as well.

excellent points and I think this is as good an explanation as any.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Just wanted to put in there that it’s worth noting that in the early days of the church, “mortal sin” was very strictly defined to very few things. Primarily adultery and murder. It was BIG DEAL STUFF,

Also apostasy. There was controversy in the early Church because some Popes would let people who apostasized during the persecutions come back into the Church, although they had to do really huge penances, and then there were other Popes who wouldn’t let them back in. The Christians who didn’t apostasize had gotten killed/ lost loved ones/ suffered tortures that left many people permanently disabled in some way, so it was a hot button issue as to whether people who denied Christ to save themselves and their families should be re-admitted or not.

 

[steve-b]

Just look around these forums to see how often people worry about whether or not they committed a mortal sin, for example.

When I say “early Christians” in the title I mean the first 1,000 years, before the strict terminology of mortal sin became promoted by Aquinas’ line of thought.

Mortal Sin — that you can willingly sin and fall out of grace — is a scriptural and historical teaching. “Once Saved Always Saved” is a novelty brought on by the Protestant Reformers.

However, there seems to be a certain “modern” perspective (last few hundred years or more) on Mortal Sin that would have us worrying about being in and out of the state of grace even every other week.

Meanwhile, the early church of the 2nd and 3rd centuries wondered if Absolution of mortal sins was possible more than once!

Are we too liberal in how we think mortal sin is committed in frequency?

To your points, taking one example

according to a Survey/study by Georgetown Univ , 78% of Catholics don’t go to Sunday mass regularly. Only 22% are faithful mass goers. Meaning 78% of those Catholics are in mortal sin.

Deliberately missing Sunday mass has been a mortal sin since the 1st century so obviously this is a sin that has been around a long time

Confession in Church, to a priest has always been a way to rid one of their sins, AND therefor the priestly power of bind and loose comes into play

 

[PetraG]

I’d say that St. Paul’s epistles absolutely do speak to the idea of fearing deadly sin.

Let us hold unwaveringly to our confession that gives us hope, for he who made the promise is trustworthy. We must consider how to rouse one another to love and good works. We should not stay away from our assembly, as is the custom of some, but encourage one another, and this all the more as you see the day drawing near.
If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries. Anyone who rejects the law of Moses is put to death without pity on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Do you not think that a much worse punishment is due the one who has contempt for the Son of God, considers unclean the covenant-blood by which he was consecrated, and insults the spirit of grace?
(Heb. 10:23-29)
and
We are not among those who draw back and perish, but among those who have faith and will possess life. (Heb. 10:39)
and in 1 Corinthians:
Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes, nor sodomites nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. That is what some of you used to be; but now you have had yourselves washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. (1 Cor. 6:9-11)

This is from the Didache:
“Watch” over your life “let your lamps” be not quenched “and your loins” be not ungirded, but be “ready,” for ye know not “the hour in which our Lord cometh.”
But be frequently gathered together seeking the things which are profitable for your souls, for the whole time of your faith shall not profit you except ye be found perfect at the last time;
For in the last days the false prophets and the corruptors shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall change to hate;
For as lawlessness increaseth they shall hate one another and persecute and betray, and then shall appear the deceiver of the world as a Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders and the earth shall be given over into his hands and he shall commit iniquities which have never been since the world began.
Then shall the creation of mankind come to the fiery trial and “many shall be offended” and be lost, but “they who endure” in their faith “shall be saved” by the curse itself.

 

[BoomBoomMancini]

Meaning 78% of those Catholics are in mortal sin

You can’t definitively conclude that. I’d be careful about being so cavalier about declaring people to be in a state or mortal sin.

 

[CelticWarlord]

Sin that would have us worrying about being in and out of the state of grace even every other week.

I haven’t read the entire thread so risk being repetitive here. So I’ll keep it brief; It would be difficult to know for certain. However I think basic human instincts have remained the same since the first century, if not the strictly defined doctrinal positions. There have always been and will always be very insecure people. The church will reflect this proportionately. Modern social media has given those who most need reassurance to seek it publicly. So although the fear of mortal sin may be far more visible, my personal view is that it has always been there. For most of my life I was no exception to this.

 

[PetraG]

However, there seems to be a certain “modern” perspective (last few hundred years or more) on Mortal Sin that would have us worrying about being in and out of the state of grace even every other week.

Yes, I think that Christians have always been warned about the dangers of backsliding into doing the sorts of things that are the norm in an evil age.

Yes, there are certainly also Catholics who are afflicted with scruples and OCD and self-examination of the type that is in its way a sort of spiritual autoimmune disease. These souls ought to be under the care of level-headed guides, just as people with physical autoimmune diseases need care from physicians that go beyond the typical. That does mean that it isn’t even worse to be without a functioning immune system. Likewise, in the spiritual life the conscience must be both properly formed and attended to in order to fulfill its intended purpose, which is to preserve the soul from harm without the soul turning on itself and tear itself apart attacking innocent things.

 

[Delphinus]

According to a Survey/study by Georgetown Univ , 78% of Catholics don’t go to Sunday mass regularly. Only 22% are faithful mass goers. Meaning 78% of those Catholics are in mortal sin.

mmm…accurate numbers (obviously! it’s a reliable source) but I disagree slightly on application in this case. It’s a GRAVE matter, which makes it a possibility for mortal sin, but there are three conditions that have to be met for it to me a mortal sin, and one of those is full knowledge of the gravity of the sin and deliberate consent to do it anyway. So although missing mass for these 78% is indeed a grave matter, it may not be mortal since if they are anything like the ones I know who infrequently attend Mass, they are not aware it’s a grave sin.

Edit to add:

The way I taught mortal sin when I was teaching at a Catholic school (kids worry about this a LOT!) is you are choosing to cmmit a very serious action to PURPOSEFULLY tell God that you do not wish to follow him any longer. It’s a very hateful, deliberate, and intentional act that is done to separate yourself from your faith. One doesn’t do it “on accident” or in the throes of temptation or extreme emotion.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Meaning 78% of those Catholics are in mortal sin

You can’t definitively conclude that. I’d be careful about being so cavalier about declaring people to be in a state or mortal sin.

I knew someone would say that. I was waiting for it.

I had a bishop of all people at a seminary of all places say that same thing to me as well. I said to him as I will say to you, it isn’t me who says that. It’s from the CCC

2181 The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own
pastor. Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin.

BTW: Grave sin = mortal sin, they are synonymous terms. A distinction without a difference

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

According to a Survey/study by Georgetown Univ , 78% of Catholics don’t go to Sunday mass regularly. Only 22% are faithful mass goers. Meaning 78% of those Catholics are in mortal sin.

mmm…accurate numbers (obviously! it’s a reliable source) but I disagree slightly on application in this case. It’s a GRAVE matter, which makes it a possibility for mortal sin, but there are three conditions that have to be met for it to me a mortal sin, and one of those is full knowledge of the gravity of the sin and deliberate consent to do it anyway. So although missing mass for these 78% is indeed a grave matter, it may not be mortal since if they are anything like the ones I know who infrequently attend Mass, they are not aware it’s a grave sin.

Edit to add:

The way I taught mortal sin when I was teaching at a Catholic school (kids worry about this a LOT!) is you are choosing to cmmit a very serious action to PURPOSEFULLY tell God that you do not wish to follow him any longer. It’s a very hateful, deliberate, and intentional act that is done to separate yourself from your faith. One doesn’t do it “on accident” or in the throes of temptation or extreme emotion.

See the following post

Your addition to having been a teacher in a Catholic setting, and teaching what you did, making mortal sin almost impossible to commit, is disturbing.

 

[BoomBoomMancini]

Well, thank God you were there to correct the bishop with your misreading of the Catechism.

Do you honestly think the bishop (or anyone here) was unaware that missing Mass (deliberately and with consent) is gravely sinful? What we, and presumably he, are saying is that some portion of the 78% you mention were probably never properly categorized, so they don’t understand their obligations. You can’t deliberately fail in an obligation you don’t understand in the first place. That’s why you shouldn’t make wild leaps of logic like “78% of people miss mass, therefore 78% of people are in a state of mortal sin.”

 

[steve-b]

Well, thank God you were there to correct the bishop with your misreading of the Catechism.

Do you honestly think the bishop (or anyone here) was unaware that missing Mass (deliberately and with consent) is gravely sinful? What we, and presumably he, are saying is that some portion of the 78% you mention were probably never properly categorized, so they don’t understand their obligations. You can’t deliberately fail in an obligation you don’t understand in the first place. That’s why you shouldn’t make wild leaps of logic like “78% of people miss mass, therefore 78% of people are in a state of mortal sin.”

Don’t add words or corrupt motives

Consent = freely doing something. It’s not complicated. It isn’t something one composes (Manufactures in their own mind) as some lame excuse

And

Ignorance isn’t something assumed to be automatically innocent. Such is the case when

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.” In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

since information has never in history been so easy to access than today, one has a difficult time claiming their ignorance is innocent in what they need to know

 

[Delphinus]

The post is inaccurate. Mortal sin REQUIRES willful consent AND knowledge. Insulting my work as “disturbing” is highly counterproductive for fruitful discussion.

 

[steve-b]

The post is inaccurate. Mortal sin REQUIRES willful consent AND knowledge. Insulting my work as “disturbing” is highly counterproductive for fruitful discussion.

Few people in society are compromised in the fashion you want to presume is there… Most people have no problem with consent, or knowledge concerning sin. And as the CCC states

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.” In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

Are you sure that’s an accurate portrayal?

 

[BoomBoomMancini]

since information has never in history been so easy to access than today, one has a difficult time claiming their ignorance is innocent in what they need to know

You’re still misunderstanding. We’re not talking about a well-catechized Catholic who intuits something might be wrong but deliberately avoids finding out. We’re talking about nominal Catholics who through no fault of their own are ignorant. Maybe their parents drifted away from the church when the kids were young so the kids were baptized and thus technically catholic but that’s where it ended. You going “well, they should just Google mortal sin, and if they dont, they’re culpable.” is just totally off-base. You can keep waving around snippets from the CCC but you’re misapplying them in a really fundamental way.

Of course, you know more than your bishop, so clearly you’re the only guy around who can read the the Catechism.

 

[BoomBoomMancini]

Never been more sure of anything.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

since information has never in history been so easy to access than today, one has a difficult time claiming their ignorance is innocent in what they need to know

You’re still misunderstanding. We’re not talking about a well-catechized Catholic who intuits something might be wrong but deliberately avoids finding out. We’re talking about nominal Catholics who through no fault of their own are ignorant. Maybe their parents drifted away from the church when the kids were young so the kids were baptized and thus technically catholic but that’s where it ended. You going “well, they should just Google mortal sin, and if they dont, they’re culpable.” is just totally off-base. You can keep waving around snippets from the CCC but you’re misapplying them in a really fundamental way.

Of course, you know more than your bishop, so clearly you’re the only guy around who can read the the Catechism.

You’re clearly feeling skewered by my quotes.