Did Eastern Churches expand?

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did Eastern Churches expand the same way or in a similar way the Western Church did?

i’m just curious because i grew up in the Philippines which is geographically east, but Christianity was virtually never heard of in that region until the Spanish and Portugese came
 
thanks!

i know Orthodoxy eventually found its way to the Philippines but only in the last decade
 
I think its important to consider that the various Latin missions were funded and supported by various countries. Like Portugal and Spain for instance. These nations were sea faring nations with strong economies that allowed them to support huge missions across the world. Eastern Christian countries were usually poor, landlocked (or lacked a year-round ice free port), or were controlled by Islamic empires that would rather these Christians remain isolated in order that they would be easier to control. The fact that the Eastern Orthodox did eventually send missions to Japan, China, Alaska despite their political and geographic disadvantages is impressive in itself imo.
 
thanks!

i know Orthodoxy eventually found its way to the Philippines but only in the last decade
The Nestorians were in the Phillippines much earlier then the last decade. Philip Jenkins wrote a book I think it’s called the Forgotten or Lost Christains I cant remember exactly. He claims that in the 800’s Christianity was in China, Indonesia,TIBET!! and the Philippines. Who would have thought!!🤷
 
Among the reasons for the lack of missionary work is that the EO churches tend not to act together (indeed they seem sometimes to be competing) and the local, national churches did not have the expertise, funds, will to act independently. This does indicate the lack of two of the marks of the true Church,unity and universality.
 
The Nestorians were in the Phillippines much earlier then the last decade. Philip Jenkins wrote a book I think it’s called the Forgotten or Lost Christains I cant remember exactly. He claims that in the 800’s Christianity was in China, Indonesia,TIBET!! and the Philippines. Who would have thought!!🤷
wow, i never knew that

but apparently they never left their mark. when the Spanish came most of the islands were pagans worshiping tribal religions, usually nature worshipers. there was an advancement of Islam from the south via Sabah, Malaysia and it has already spread to the various parts of what would become the southern part of the Philippines.
 
Among the reasons for the lack of missionary work is that the EO churches tend not to act together (indeed they seem sometimes to be competing) and the local, national churches did not have the expertise, funds, will to act independently. This does indicate the lack of two of the marks of the true Church,unity and universality.
This of course is typical Roman Catolic view of history ignoring great missionaries of Russian church carrying Holy Orthodoxy to Urals, Siberia, Far east, china and Japan. Also fails to recognize the oppression by Arabs and Ottoman empire on non Russian churches in Bulgaria, Serbia, Greece, Lebanon, Egypt. Holy Orthodoxy has been church suffering for 600 years, while Western Christians ofered no help only sacked Constantinople, taking religious artifacts back to Venice and Rome.
 
This of course is typical Roman Catolic view of history ignoring great missionaries of Russian church carrying Holy Orthodoxy to Urals, Siberia, Far east, china and Japan. Also fails to recognize the oppression by Arabs and Ottoman empire on non Russian churches in Bulgaria, Serbia, Greece, Lebanon, Egypt. Holy Orthodoxy has been church suffering for 600 years, while Western Christians ofered no help only sacked Constantinople, taking religious artifacts back to Venice and Rome.
Yes, I think most of us know the arguments, and the counter-arguments concerning the wrongs many Orthodox think were done to Orthodoxy by Catholicism, and vice-versa. But that’s not topical for the most part and has never, to my observation, done anything but encourage rancor.

An Orthodox person may contest what I say next, and if so, that’s fine. My intention is not to debate, but to answer the larger question whether or not Orthodoxy has expanded from its former boundaries.

It is my impression that there are essentially two Orthodoxies; somewhat united but somewhat divided. One is Eastern Orthodox, the other is Oriental Orthodox. Within those two are also divisions; not theological, I believe, but territorial. Orthodoxy, as I understand it, views the various churches within Orthodoxy as “territorial”. So, for example, that part of Eastern Orthodoxy that considers itself under the Russian Patriarch, objects to the presence in Ukraine of that part of Eastern Orthodoxy that considers itself under the Patriarch of Constantinople. That objection, as with many territorial claims within Orthodoxy, is based on history; history about which minds can, and do, differ.

As I understand it, then, Eastern Orthodoxy considers that Catholicism has no business being in the Americas at all. That claim is based partly on the Orthodox position that the Catholic Church is fundamentally illigitimate, but more on the early presence of Russians in the environs of Alaska. In fact, I have had it explained to me by Eastern Orthodox, who seemed to be of considerable learning on the subject, that the Pope’s jurisdiction (if they allow any at all) would be limited to the immediate environs of Rome; that all of Western Europe should be within the jurisdiction of Eastern Orthodoxy alone (the Greeks and the Russians might dispute between themselves which of them is entitled to, say, Scotland) and that Catholicism itself should, at minimum, retreat from the remainder of the world. The Philippines may similarly be a matter of contention among the various Orthodoxies, based on who, exactly, went where and when and what they did. But, to my understanding, none would admit of the right of Catholicism to be there at all. That really isn’t quite theological either, (though Orthodoxy rejects Catholicism totally) but based on history.

Catholicism has no similar claims because it considers itself “universal”; that is, with a right to be anywhere. It does not deny to the Eastern or Oriental Orthodox the “right” to be anywhere they want to be. To my knowledge, the only place where denial of Catholicism’s “right” to be somewhere has become a serious issue is within Russia itself, and that sometimes involves the state as well. Possibly all of that was inevitable because of the different ways the churches see themselves. As I said, Catholicism considers itself “universal”, with a right to be anywhere. Orthodoxy has always had a territorial orientation that, to me, is quite complicated from a Catholic viewpoint, particularly since the various Patriarchs don’t exactly have governance over the bishops within their territories in the same way Catholic bishops are under the governance of the Pope. So, the various Orthodox bishops also have an autonomy within their own individual territories that has no exact parallel in Catholicism.

It is my impression that within Orthodoxy there are certain areas that are not really disputed between or among them. All of Russia, then, is pretty much acknowledged to be under the Patriarch of Moscow, and all of Greece within the jurisdiction of the Patriarch of Constantinople. The disputes are on the peripheries.

In the U.S., as I understand it, there really isn’t anything firm about that, and both the Greeks and the Russians are present here. So, I believe, are some Oriental Orthodox.
I do not believe that has been resolved from a territorial standpoint. It is sometimes the subject of rancorous comment, but I think there is a sort of tacit agreement not to make too much of it, and since most Orthodox in the U.S. brought their particular affiliation with them from wherever they came from, I’m not sure it’s truly capable of resolution.

So, in a way, it is indisputable that the various Orthodox churches have expanded. But from their point of view, I doubt any would say they have. I think they would be more inclined to say that they have increased their presence within territories that were already “theirs”.
 
It’s not precisely topical, but it might be in a way.

Eastern Catholicism has separate bishops and dioceses from those of Latin Catholicism, though both acknowledge that they are part of the same Church. Consequently, one will find that Latin and Eastern Catholic dioceses sometimes “overlap”. Therefore, the Eastern Catholics in, say, St. Louis, are under the jurisdiction of their own Eastern Catholic bishop, while the Latin Catholics there are under the jurisdiction of the Latin or Western bishop, and the diocesan boundaries of the two are not the same. Within the Catholic Church, that is thought to be an acceptable situation. Within Orthodoxy, it really isn’t.
 
Among the reasons for the lack of missionary work is that the EO churches tend not to act together (indeed they seem sometimes to be competing) and the local, national churches did not have the expertise, funds, will to act independently. This does indicate the lack of two of the marks of the true Church,unity and universality.
This is not actually true.

Expansion of Christianity has always ben a national affair, even in the west. For instance among Catholics one will not find the Polish church, Slovak church or Hungarian church expanded into the Americas or Africa except by migration. Why? Because they did not have overseas empires to support such endeavors.

The Spanish, Portuguese and French did. If a Polish priest wanted to do mission work, he would need permission from his local Polish bishop to leave and work in some Fench or Spanish colony.

It is the same with Orthodox. Being landlocked in central Europe makes it hard to expand into places like the Pacific rim. And has already been mentioned mission work in Muslim dominated areas was nearly impossible, and travel difficult.

Of course, a Bulgarian/Romanian/Serbian priest could always do mission work in Siberia under Russian sponsorship, but it will be a Russian mission, not a Bulgarian one. The Spanish made it illegal for Orthodox missioners to work in their territories. Today one will find Orthodox priests from Cyprus doing mission work in Kenya and Orthodox Russian priests working in South Africa all on behalf of the Pope of Alexandria, so it happens that Orthodox will work together for these purposes.

It is amazing the church under Islam survived at all in some places, for instance the Catholic church in North Africa (home of Tertullian and Augustine of Hippo) completely disappeared, and what little exists today is a replant after the modern French empire suppressed the Barbary states with military force.

My family supported Roman Catholic Polish priests working in the Philippines for many years (I have Catholic relics as tokens of appreciation), but it will always be regarded as a church planted by the Spanish in their imperial expansion.





The Assyrian Church of the East church did reach China in the 700’s, there is proof here of that. However they never ever had state sponsorship, anywhere they went, and the home church was suppressed under Islam and did not have the financial muscle to support the missions (which were often also under attack) which is why they disappeared virtually everywhere they worked after so many centuries.

To see how the process works today we here in China are witnessing the slow collapse of the Catholic church (the fundamentalist Christians are thriving). Where I live was once a small but growing diocese, planted by French missioners in British and German held territory. It had parishes, missions and schools with at least a couple dozen priests, a hospital and a cathedral. Today the British are gone, the Germans are gone and the French missioners are gone.

What is left is one small poor parish an hour away from me, the floorboards are splitting up and creaking, the pews are old and wobbly, the walls have been repainted but there are almost no statues. Everything was wrecked in the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution. It gives me some insight as to what happened to the Catholics and Orthodox under Islam centuries ago. Churches like this lack the means to proselytise, and legal disabilities that slap their priests into confinements. Catholics in America would never know how bad it can get.
 
Yes, I think most of us know the arguments, and the counter-arguments concerning the wrongs many Orthodox think were done to Orthodoxy by Catholicism, and vice-versa. But that’s not topical for the most part and has never, to my observation, done anything but encourage rancor.

An Orthodox person may contest what I say next, and if so, that’s fine. My intention is not to debate, but to answer the larger question whether or not Orthodoxy has expanded from its former boundaries.

It is my impression that there are essentially two Orthodoxies; somewhat united but somewhat divided. One is Eastern Orthodox, the other is Oriental Orthodox. Within those two are also divisions; not theological, I believe, but territorial. Orthodoxy, as I understand it, views the various churches within Orthodoxy as “territorial”. So, for example, that part of Eastern Orthodoxy that considers itself under the Russian Patriarch, objects to the presence in Ukraine of that part of Eastern Orthodoxy that considers itself under the Patriarch of Constantinople. That objection, as with many territorial claims within Orthodoxy, is based on history; history about which minds can, and do, differ.

As I understand it, then, Eastern Orthodoxy considers that Catholicism has no business being in the Americas at all. That claim is based partly on the Orthodox position that the Catholic Church is fundamentally illigitimate, but more on the early presence of Russians in the environs of Alaska. In fact, I have had it explained to me by Eastern Orthodox, who seemed to be of considerable learning on the subject, that the Pope’s jurisdiction (if they allow any at all) would be limited to the immediate environs of Rome; that all of Western Europe should be within the jurisdiction of Eastern Orthodoxy alone (the Greeks and the Russians might dispute between themselves which of them is entitled to, say, Scotland) and that Catholicism itself should, at minimum, retreat from the remainder of the world. The Philippines may similarly be a matter of contention among the various Orthodoxies, based on who, exactly, went where and when and what they did. But, to my understanding, none would admit of the right of Catholicism to be there at all. That really isn’t quite theological either, (though Orthodoxy rejects Catholicism totally) but based on history.

Catholicism has no similar claims because it considers itself “universal”; that is, with a right to be anywhere. It does not deny to the Eastern or Oriental Orthodox the “right” to be anywhere they want to be. To my knowledge, the only place where denial of Catholicism’s “right” to be somewhere has become a serious issue is within Russia itself, and that sometimes involves the state as well. Possibly all of that was inevitable because of the different ways the churches see themselves. As I said, Catholicism considers itself “universal”, with a right to be anywhere. Orthodoxy has always had a territorial orientation that, to me, is quite complicated from a Catholic viewpoint, particularly since the various Patriarchs don’t exactly have governance over the bishops within their territories in the same way Catholic bishops are under the governance of the Pope. So, the various Orthodox bishops also have an autonomy within their own individual territories that has no exact parallel in Catholicism.

It is my impression that within Orthodoxy there are certain areas that are not really disputed between or among them. All of Russia, then, is pretty much acknowledged to be under the Patriarch of Moscow, and all of Greece within the jurisdiction of the Patriarch of Constantinople. The disputes are on the peripheries.

In the U.S., as I understand it, there really isn’t anything firm about that, and both the Greeks and the Russians are present here. So, I believe, are some Oriental Orthodox.
I do not believe that has been resolved from a territorial standpoint. It is sometimes the subject of rancorous comment, but I think there is a sort of tacit agreement not to make too much of it, and since most Orthodox in the U.S. brought their particular affiliation with them from wherever they came from, I’m not sure it’s truly capable of resolution.

So, in a way, it is indisputable that the various Orthodox churches have expanded. But from their point of view, I doubt any would say they have. I think they would be more inclined to say that they have increased their presence within territories that were already “theirs”.
Well said. I am reading a book right now on this subject and everything you said was just about brought up:clapping: I think the lack of missionary activity of Orthodoxy has at least as much to do with their “geographical” handicaps as with their internal bickering over Jurisdictions.
 
Among the reasons for the lack of missionary work is that the EO churches tend not to act together (indeed they seem sometimes to be competing) and the local, national churches did not have the expertise, funds, will to act independently. This does indicate the lack of two of the marks of the true Church,unity and universality.
This is not actually true.

Expansion of Christianity has always been a national affair, even in the west. For instance among Catholics one will not find the Polish church, Slovak church or Hungarian church expanded into the Americas or Africa except by migration. Why? Because they did not have overseas empires to support such endeavors.

The Spanish, Portuguese and French did. If a Polish priest wanted to do mission work, he would need permission from his local Polish bishop to leave and work in some French or Spanish colony.

It is the same with Orthodox. Being landlocked in central Europe makes it hard to expand into places like the Pacific rim. And has already been mentioned mission work in Muslim dominated areas was nearly impossible, and travel difficult.

Of course, a Bulgarian/Romanian/Serbian priest could always do mission work in Siberia under Russian sponsorship, but it will be a Russian mission, not a Bulgarian one. The Spanish made it illegal for Orthodox missioners to work in their territories. Today one will find Orthodox priests from Cyprus doing mission work in Kenya and Orthodox Russian priests working in South Africa all on behalf of the Pope of Alexandria, so it happens that Orthodox will work together for these purposes.

It is amazing the church under Islam survived at all in some places, for instance the Catholic church in North Africa (home of Tertullian and Augustine of Hippo) completely disappeared, and what little exists today is a replant after the modern French empire suppressed the Barbary states with military force.

My family supported Roman Catholic Polish priests working in the Philippines for many years (I have Catholic relics as tokens of appreciation), but it will always be regarded as a church planted by the Spanish in their imperial expansion.





The Assyrian Church of the East church did reach China in the 700’s, there is proof here of that. However they never ever had state sponsorship, anywhere they went, and the home church was suppressed under Islam and did not have the financial muscle to support the missions (which were often also under attack) which is why they disappeared virtually everywhere they worked after so many centuries (Kerala being a notable exception).

To see how the process works today we here in China are witnessing the slow collapse of the Catholic church (the fundamentalist Christians are thriving). Where I live was once a small but growing diocese, planted by French missioners in British and German held territory. It had parishes, missions and schools with at least a couple dozen priests, a hospital and a cathedral. Today the British are gone, the Germans are gone and the French missioners are gone.

What is left is one small poor parish an hour away from me, the floorboards are splitting up and creaking, the doors hang askew on their hinges, the pews are old and wobbly, the walls have been repainted but there are almost no statues to be seen. It’s clean though. Everything was wrecked in the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution. It gives me some insight as to what happened to the Catholics and Orthodox under Islam centuries ago. Churches like this lack the means to proselytise, and legal disabilities that slap their priests into confinements. Catholics in America would never know how bad it can get.
 
This is not actually true.

Expansion of Christianity has always been a national affair, even in the west. For instance among Catholics one will not find the Polish church, Slovak church or Hungarian church expanded into the Americas or Africa except by migration. Why? Because they did not have overseas empires to support such endeavors.
The fact that some/many Catholic missionaries were supported and financed by their own governments does not change the fact that their efforts were on behalf of the universal Church and not primarily for the nation or a local church. This is the difference, the Catholic missionaries were not concerned with competition with the missionaries of other Catholic nations.The ‘first in wins’ model of the EO is irrelevant, thank God, in Catholicism.
The fact that a few EO missionaries made it to China but who left no visible church behind is interesting but not really relevant.
 
The fact that some/many Catholic missionaries were supported and financed by their own governments does not change the fact that their efforts were on behalf of the universal Church and not primarily for the nation or a local church. This is the difference, the Catholic missionaries were not concerned with competition with the missionaries of other Catholic nations.The ‘first in wins’ model of the EO is irrelevant, thank God, in Catholicism.
The fact that a few EO missionaries made it to **China but who left no visible church behind **is interesting but not really relevant.
Considering that the first western missionaries to China got expelled and left “no visible church behind” as well doesn’t really help your case :rolleyes: . The Chinese Catholic Church really only dates to the late 1800s when Western Imperialism was strong enough to force China into accepting western spheres of influence in their territories.
 
Considering that the first western missionaries to China got expelled and left “no visible church behind” as well doesn’t really help your case :rolleyes: . The Chinese Catholic Church really only dates to the late 1800s when Western Imperialism was strong enough to force China into accepting western spheres of influence in their territories.
I think one needs to recognize too, that a lot of conversions,historically, had at least something of an “imperialist” or “governmental” assist. That would be true of pagan Slavs, just as it would of pagan Teutons and (much later) Filipinos. It worked the other way as well. The Eastern churches were much reduced by Arab and Turkish suppression, and nascent Catholicism in Japan was suppressed to near non-existence by the Shogun.
 
The fact that the Eastern Orthodox did eventually send missions to Japan, China, Alaska despite their political and geographic disadvantages is impressive in itself imo.
The “missions” to Alaska were not so much for converting the natives (tho’ they did do that) as to provide for the needs of the Russian Colony of Аляска. Alaska was Russian right up until Wm. Seward was able to get the US to purchase it for 4.5¢ an acre.
 
The Assyrian Church of the East church did reach China in the 700’s, there is proof here of that. However they never ever had state sponsorship, anywhere they went, and the home church was suppressed under Islam and did not have the financial muscle to support the missions (which were often also under attack) which is why they disappeared virtually everywhere they worked after so many centuries (Kerala being a notable exception).
It is a mistake to think that Christianity was brought to Malabar Coast (Kerala since 1956) by Assyrian Church of the East.

Unbroken tradition has it that Christianity was brought by Apostle Thomas in the first century. It is not clear when exactly the Nestorian Church of the East (Mesopotamia - Chaldean) brought the Syriac Liturgy of Addai and Mari to Malabar Coast. But it has been amply proved that the Portuguese found ancient Christians of Apostle Thomas in Malabar Coast when they came in 1500. The Synod of Diamper which took place nearly a century later in 1599, was forced on the ancient Christian community only by stopping Chaldean bishops from coming since 1597. There is most likely to have been political motives also behind the move. Christianity at that time after all was very much a part of colonial politics.

What can be said with certainty though is that once in communion with RCC the ancient community had no reason to break the communion. They had after all only changed their allegiance from Patriarch of Babylon to Pope in Rome, but had retained their Syriac Liturgy and their separate churches.

The Coonan Cross Oath, which supposedly took place in 1653, has no logical basis for the ancient Christian community. There was no other Christian church in Malabar Coast at the time, and they would not have broken away and given up the Syriac Liturgy on a whim.

The Coonan Cross Oath claim was made only in the nineteenth century by non-Catholic groups, who wanted to claim the Apostle Thomas tradition as their own without actually becoming Catholics. It happened after the non-Catholic Dutch left Malabar Coast in 1795, after a 140 year presence, when the non-Catholic British arrived as colonial masters. The writings of Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan and British CMS missionaries in Malabar Coast (by then consisting of three political units - princely states of Cochin and Travancore and Malabar District of Madras Presidency) starting from 1806 gives insight into the developments and the formation of new churches. It is vital to remember that CMS missionaries trained ALL non-Catholics for twenty years 1816 - 1836, including the Latin Rite Catholics of Diocese of Cochin who would later break with the Roman Catholic Church to become a Nestorian Church formed by Church of England. The irony of course is that the newly created church by break away Latin Rite Catholics claim to be Apostle Thomas Christians !

A lot of history was rewritten in the nineteenth century. Colonial power politics and European Roman Catholic politics (represented from the beginning 1500 by Franciscans in a big way and by Carmelites since 1657), had a lot to do with it. They had the power, and as we all know, the powerful get to write whatever suits them best. It is truly a great achievement that the ancient Christian community of Apostle Thomas did not allow themselves to be absorbed into RCC, giving up their unique history and tradition, even if a lot of modification might have been introduced by the Latin Rite bishops who were in charge of See of Cranganore for nearly 300 years and the first Vicar Apostolate of the new church was also of Latin Rite.
 
It is a mistake to think that Christianity was brought to Malabar Coast (Kerala since 1956) by Assyrian Church of the East.

Unbroken tradition has it that Christianity was brought by Apostle Thomas in the first century.
Yes, I am aware of the Apostolic origins of your community.

My only point in mentioning them was that the church survived.
 
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