Did Freedom of Religion mess up Christianity?

[2cherubs]

Why did I let that post get so long? :doh2:

 

[BroIgnatius]

Would you like to go back to a society where the RCC had the ability to stamp out non-RCC teaching by making non-RCC teachings illegal?

How about liking to go back to a society where Protestants had the ability to stamp out non-Protestant teaching by making non-Protestant teachings illegal? And more, making membership in the Catholic Church illegal, where priests and religious were arrested, tortured, killed, or deported. This was the legacy of the Protestants in England until 1830, not to mention the Calvinist and Lutherans in Europe, and the bigotry against Catholics in the United States that still rages on today like a roaring fire.

The Catholic Church did not have the power or authority to make anything illegal in laws of the State. The Church did, however, protect the faith against heretics by calling out those heretics. The only penalty for heresy in the Church is excommunication. In many cases, however, heretics happened to also be a threat to the State and thus the State took action against them under the power of the State.

It was Protestants who passed laws to try to stamp out Catholicism, not the other way around.

Whoever made this ignorant statement needs to ignore the anti-Catholic rhetoric and get an education.

The point I see is that this wall of separation actually protects the integrity of the Church and her teachings. Too much enmeshment with the State can result in the State getting an upper hand on how we Catholics practice our faith. Church teaching rests on Scripture, reason, and tradition . . . not the political whims of the State.

Finally, the key flaw of a church-state union was summed up eloquently by the U.S.'s most vocal religious freedom advocate, William Penn: “Force may make hypocrites, but it can never make converts.” We surrender to Christ because we answer His call, not the State’s. Anything short of this authenticity is worthless.

Keep in mind that the Constitution does not contain a wall of separation as we know it today. The establishment clause of the First Amendment refers to prohibiting a State Church, like the Church of England. Nativity scenes on Court House lawns, Christmas holidays in schools, or even prayers in schools, do not “establish” a National Church, and thus is not a violation of the Constitution.

The mess we find ourselves today from this false interpretation of the Constitution did not exist until 1947 when the Supreme Court invented this concept within the Constitution. My personal opinion is that the majority Court must have been on LSD to hallucinate that one.

 

[2cherubs]

Keep in mind that the Constitution does not contain a wall of separation as we know it today. The establishment clause of the First Amendment refers to prohibiting a State Church, like the Church of England. Nativity scenes on Court House lawns, Christmas holidays in schools, or even prayers in schools, do not “establish” a National Church, and thus is not a violation of the Constitution.

The mess we find ourselves today from this false interpretation of the Constitution did not exist until 1947 when the Supreme Court invented this concept within the Constitution. My personal opinion is that the majority Court must have been on LSD to hallucinate that one.

Point well taken. I am aware that the concept of a “wall” came from a letter penned by Thomas Jefferson but was never actually enshrined in the Constitution.

 

[Picky_Picky]

How about liking to go back to a society where Protestants had the ability to stamp out non-Protestant teaching by making non-Protestant teachings illegal? And more, making membership in the Catholic Church illegal, where priests and religious were arrested, tortured, killed, or deported. This was the legacy of the Protestants in England until 1830, not to mention the Calvinist and Lutherans in Europe, and the bigotry against Catholics in the United States that still rages on today like a roaring fire.

…

Are you suggesting that Catholic priests and religious were arrested, tortured, killed or deported for their faith in England until 1830?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Are you suggesting that Catholic priests and religious were arrested, tortured, killed or deported for their faith in England until 1830?

Secular powers begin to chart the course to usurp divine authority from the Catholic Church Magisterium.

Sir Thomas More, also called Saint Thomas More (born February 7, 1478, London, England—died July 6, 1535, London; canonized May 19, 1935; feast day June 22), English humanist and statesman, chancellor of England (1529–32),** who was beheaded for refusing to accept King Henry VIII as head of the Church of England.**
www.luminarium.org/renlit/morebio.htm

 

[Picky_Picky]

Secular powers begin to chart the course to usurp divine authority from the Catholic Church Magisterium.

Sir Thomas More, also called Saint Thomas More (born February 7, 1478, London, England—died July 6, 1535, London; canonized May 19, 1935; feast day June 22), English humanist and statesman, chancellor of England (1529–32),** who was beheaded** for refusing to accept King Henry VIII as head of the Church of England.
www.luminarium.org/renlit/morebio.htm

Yep. Pretty sure that was a little before 1830.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Yep. Pretty sure that was a little before 1830.

Every evil that comes against the Catholic Church in history had a beginning started by man.

The protest (Protestant reformation) is well underway by 1830

 

[Picky_Picky]

Every evil that comes against the Catholic Church in history had a beginning started by man.

The protest (Protestant reformation) is well underway by 1830

You speak in riddles, friend.

 

[GKC]

Every evil that comes against the Catholic Church in history had a beginning started by man.

The protest (Protestant reformation) is well underway by 1830

Yep.

Not all that much killing going on, as one approached 1830. Or 1829. Or even 1778.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Yep.

Not all that much killing going on, as one approached 1830. Or 1829. Or even 1778.

Surely you do not deny the Protestant Kings laws which executed Catholics and the many killings on both sides of Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland.
Due to the Protestant Crown mixing religion with it’s politics.

Conflict in Ireland 1600-1850

The centuries old conflict between Protestants and Catholics in Ireland began during the reign of King Henry VIIII (1509-1549) during this period King Henry VIIII who had split from the Catholic Church made Anglicanism the official religion in England. He tried to impose this new religion on Ireland which had a strong Catholic population at this time.

King Henry wanted to control Ireland not only for religious reasons but also for political reasons, therefore beginning in 1534 he encouraged British as well as Scottish protestants to go settle in Ireland. The largest amount of protestant settlers was seen between 1534-1691. This large migration of Protestants to mostly Catholic Ireland set off the conflict that still exists today.

While the British Crown gained full control in Ireland in the 16th and 17th centuries the Crown was not satisfied. In order to ensure that the Protestant minority would be safe in Ireland a the crown stripped the Catholics of many privileges.

Some of the privileges that were taken away from the Catholics included owning land, inheriting any land from Protestants, gaining custody of orphans, intermarrying, holding public office, serving in the army or bearing arms, voting, being represented in Parliament, exclusion from certain professions especially the law, owning a horse worth more than 5 pounds, while priests were tolerated Bishops and seminarians were not. Many times mass was conducted in private in rural areas.

This political move by the British Crown left many Irish Catholics in dire poverty and created a great deal of resentment towards the crown from the majority of Irish citizens

This long suppressed resentment first came to a head **in 1641 in what is known as the Irish Rebellion of 1641. This rebellion was marked by a great deal of bloodshed and was eventually put down with great force by Oliver Cromwell and his army ( Cromwellian Conquest of Ireland).

After the rebellion Roman Catholics were no longer represented in Parliament and the Catholic clergy were banned from Ireland. Some clergy who were caught were executed.** yoke.edu/~www.mtholcolli20c/classweb/politics116/conflict.html

 

[Picky_Picky]

Surely you do not deny the Protestant Kings laws which executed Catholics and the many killings on both sides of Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland.
Due to the Protestant Crown mixing religion with it’s politics.

Conflict in Ireland 1600-1850

The centuries old conflict between Protestants and Catholics in Ireland began during the reign of King Henry VIIII (1509-1549) during this period King Henry VIIII who had split from the Catholic Church made Anglicanism the official religion in England. He tried to impose this new religion on Ireland which had a strong Catholic population at this time.

King Henry wanted to control Ireland not only for religious reasons but also for political reasons, therefore beginning in 1534 he encouraged British as well as Scottish protestants to go settle in Ireland. The largest amount of protestant settlers was seen between 1534-1691. This large migration of Protestants to mostly Catholic Ireland set off the conflict that still exists today.

While the British Crown gained full control in Ireland in the 16th and 17th centuries the Crown was not satisfied. In order to ensure that the Protestant minority would be safe in Ireland a the crown stripped the Catholics of many privileges.

Some of the privileges that were taken away from the Catholics included owning land, inheriting any land from Protestants, gaining custody of orphans, intermarrying, holding public office, serving in the army or bearing arms, voting, being represented in Parliament, exclusion from certain professions especially the law, owning a horse worth more than 5 pounds, while priests were tolerated Bishops and seminarians were not. Many times mass was conducted in private in rural areas.

This political move by the British Crown left many Irish Catholics in dire poverty and created a great deal of resentment towards the crown from the majority of Irish citizens

This long suppressed resentment first came to a head **in 1641 in what is known as the Irish Rebellion of 1641. This rebellion was marked by a great deal of bloodshed and was eventually put down with great force by Oliver Cromwell and his army ( Cromwellian Conquest of Ireland).

After the rebellion Roman Catholics were no longer represented in Parliament and the Catholic clergy were banned from Ireland. Some clergy who were caught were executed.** yoke.edu/~www.mtholcolli20c/classweb/politics116/conflict.html

(1) The Irish Rebellion of 1641 is better known as a massacre of Protestants.

(2) Cromwell’s actions in Ireland were indeed brutal.

(3) Ireland is not part of England.

(4) 1641 is not part of 1830.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

You speak in riddles, friend.

Interesting enough, date’s are irrelevant here, the present represents or reflects what took place in Church history.

 

[Picky_Picky]

Interesting enough, date’s are irrelevant here, the present represents or reflects what took place in Church history.

Fortunately, the present state of interdenominational relations in England could hardly be less like it was in the past.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

(1) The Irish Rebellion of 1641 is better known as a massacre of Protestants.

(2) Cromwell’s actions in Ireland were indeed brutal.

(3) Ireland is not part of England.

(4) 1641 is not part of 1830.

What took place here; King Henry wanted to control Ireland not only for religious reasons but also for political reasons, therefore beginning in 1534 he encouraged British as well as Scottish protestants to go settle in Ireland. The largest amount of protestant settlers was seen between 1534-1691.

Far and exceeds your date of 1830. Many wounds from these Catholics and Protestants have NOT BEEN fully healed TODAY.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Fortunately, the present state of interdenominational relations in England could hardly be less like it was in the past.

Mainly due to the centuries of battle dust has settled and we find ourselves duly separated from one another, when in the past history it never was like this before. All bonified Christians were Catholic. Until the abuse of “Freedom” became the Protestant clarion call to separate itself from Catholicism.

 

[GKC]

What took place here; King Henry wanted to control Ireland not only for religious reasons but also for political reasons, therefore beginning in 1534 he encouraged British as well as Scottish protestants to go settle in Ireland. The largest amount of protestant settlers was seen between 1534-1691.

Far and exceeds your date of 1830. Many wounds from these Catholics and Protestants have NOT BEEN fully healed TODAY.

I don’t think 1830 was Picky Picky’s date.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I don’t think 1830 was Picky Picky’s date.

I stand corrected, if I may have misunderstood Picky Picky’s 1830 date to include all others before.

See post #22 “Are you suggesting that Catholic priests and religious were arrested, tortured, killed or deported for their faith in England** until 1830?**”

 

[Picky_Picky]

Mainly due to the centuries of battle dust has settled and we find ourselves duly separated from one another, when in the past history it never was like this before. All bonified Christians were Catholic. Until the abuse of “Freedom” became the Protestant clarion call to separate itself from Catholicism.

I think I meant that Catholics are not longer put to the question for their religion by Protestants, and Protestants are no longer put to the question for their religion by Catholics. That seems to me a not inconsiderable improvement.

 

[GKC]

I stand corrected, if I may have misunderstood Picky Picky’s 1830 date to include all others before.

See post #22 “Are you suggesting that Catholic priests and religious were arrested, tortured, killed or deported for their faith in England** until 1830?**”

Which he took from post #19, and was questioning. As did I.

 

[Picky_Picky]

I stand corrected, if I may have misunderstood Picky Picky’s 1830 date to include all others before.

See post #22 “Are you suggesting that Catholic priests and religious were arrested, tortured, killed or deported for their faith in England** until 1830?**”

Perhaps you did. 1830 was Broignatius’s date. I was not denying hundreds of years in which various stripes of Christians were torturing and killing each other. I was questioning whether Catholics were in fact being arrested, tortured and killed for their faith In England in 1830.