Did Freedom of Religion mess up Christianity?

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GKC said:
Three comments.

Albigensians.

Read history preferably by historians. But read in depth and from all historically respectable opinions. You need to see the subject in the round.

History is indeed messy, being full of people, and things like that. One of my most common observations.
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Apprantly the Albigensians, also called Cathars, was a gnostic type group that face similar violence as the Waldensians but the powers that be were much more successful in stamping out the Albigensians.

The shocking part to me is that the Waldensians managed to survive and eventually become protestant.

The PhD I talked to gave me the same advice. He told me to read both Catholic and Protestant Historians and that I would be shocked on how much the Historians agree and the Theologians disagree.

Do you have any Church History books by either Catholics or Protestants you would recommend?
 
Duane1966 said:
You got me there. And if it was, then my argument is not so cogent. 😉
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Oh, I don’t know that it uncogents it completely 🙂 . Anyway I’m pretty sure people were chucked into the Tower and sometimes just left there. But a quick check (admittedly just a wiki check) gets me someone actually sentenced to life imprisonment: Eleanor of Cobham, sentenced for sorcery (so not so very far away from heresy).
 
Picky_Picky said:
Oh, I don’t know that it uncogents it completely 🙂 . Anyway I’m pretty sure people were chucked into the Tower and sometimes just left there. But a quick check (admittedly just a wiki check) gets me someone actually sentenced to life imprisonment: Eleanor of Cobham, sentenced for sorcery (so not so very far away from heresy).
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Yes, but they wanted to sentence her to death, but she used her powers of sorcery to reduce the sentence.🙂 Plus with her there, the jail was full.
 
lanman87 said:
See post #62

Post #77

and Post #89
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disinformation about what the Church teaches, abounds.

see the internal links

#650

Re: your links,

I would point out, as an example of how misunderstandings and disinformation happens

in 1520, (time of Luther) Pope Leo & Exsurge Domine, papalencyclicals.net/Leo10/l10exdom.htm,

In the preface this phrase appears

“the expulsion and extermination of all heretics from Germany”.

That document is originally written in Latin. English translations sometimes screw up the original language.

example

“Extermination” there, comes from the Latin latin-dictionary.net/defi…i-exterminatus = banish, expel, dismiss.

It does NOT mean ( kill, burn, etc etc) what many non Catholics think it means. But they run with a certain narrative just the same.
 
lanman87 said:
Apprantly the Albigensians, also called Cathars, was a gnostic type group that face similar violence as the Waldensians but the powers that be were much more successful in stamping out the Albigensians.

The shocking part to me is that the Waldensians managed to survive and eventually become protestant.

The PhD I talked to gave me the same advice. He told me to read both Catholic and Protestant Historians and that I would be shocked on how much the Historians agree and the Theologians disagree.

Do you have any Church History books by either Catholics or Protestants you would recommend?
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The Albigensians were indeed Gnostic based. They were also very hard to root out.

Always got books. Books Are Me. Suggestions, not inclusive or exhaustive:

Pelikan’s multi-volume HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN TRADITION

Hughes

CHURCH IN CRISIS

POPULAR HISTORY OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

POPULAR HISTORY OF THE REFORMATION

Scarisbrick

HENRY VIII

Carroll

multi-volume CHRISTENDOM series

O’ Shea

THE PERFECT HERESY

Strayer

THE ALBIGENSIAN CRUSADE

MacCulloch

THE REFORMATION

Peter

INQUISITION

Kamen

THE SPANISH INQUISITION

Adams

THE SPIRIT OF CATHOLICISM

Moorman

HISTORY OF THE CHURCH IN ENGLAND

When you finish, there are others. My particalr focus is the Tudor period, esp. Horny Hank. These authors are both RC and Protestant, Christian or not. Read around a subject.

Other folk will add other titles which I will either agree with or not, but that’s not the criterion
 
steve_b said:
disinformation about what the Church teaches, abounds.

see the internal links

#650

Re: your links,

I would point out, as an example of how misunderstandings and disinformation happens

in 1520, (time of Luther) Pope Leo & Exsurge Domine, papalencyclicals.net/Leo10/l10exdom.htm,

In the preface this phrase appears

“the expulsion and extermination of all heretics from Germany”.

That document is originally written in Latin. English translations sometimes screw up the original language.

example

“Extermination” there, comes from the Latin latin-dictionary.net/defi…i-exterminatus = banish, expel, dismiss.

It does NOT mean ( kill, burn, etc etc) what many non Catholics think it means. But they run with a certain narrative just the same.
Click to expand...
And yet in the Papal Encyclical you referenced one of the errors being taught was:
  1. That heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit.
 
GKC said:
The Albigensians were indeed Gnostic based. They were also very hard to root out.

Always got books. Books Are Me. Suggestions, not inclusive or exhaustive:

Pelikan’s multi-volume HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN TRADITION

Hughes

CHURCH IN CRISIS

POPULAR HISTORY OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

POPULAR HISTORY OF THE REFORMATION

Scarisbrick

HENRY VIII

Carroll

multi-volume CHRISTENDOM series

O’ Shea

THE PERFECT HERESY

Strayer

THE ALBIGENSIAN CRUSADE

MacCulloch

THE REFORMATION

Peter

INQUISITION

Kamen

THE SPANISH INQUISITION

Adams

THE SPIRIT OF CATHOLICISM

Moorman

HISTORY OF THE CHURCH IN ENGLAND

When you finish, there are others. My particalr focus is the Tudor period, esp. Horny Hank. These authors are both RC and Protestant, Christian or not. Read around a subject.

Other folk will add other titles which I will either agree with or not, but that’s not the criterion
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Wow! that a lot of books. Do you have a recommendation on which one to start with?
 
GKC said:
The Albigensians were indeed Gnostic based. They were also very hard to root out.

Always got books. Books Are Me. Suggestions, not inclusive or exhaustive:

Pelikan’s multi-volume HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN TRADITION

Hughes

CHURCH IN CRISIS

POPULAR HISTORY OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

POPULAR HISTORY OF THE REFORMATION

Scarisbrick

HENRY VIII

Carroll

multi-volume CHRISTENDOM series

O’ Shea

THE PERFECT HERESY

Strayer

THE ALBIGENSIAN CRUSADE

MacCulloch

THE REFORMATION

Peter

INQUISITION

Kamen

THE SPANISH INQUISITION

Adams

THE SPIRIT OF CATHOLICISM

Moorman

HISTORY OF THE CHURCH IN ENGLAND

When you finish, there are others. My particalr focus is the Tudor period, esp. Horny Hank. These authors are both RC and Protestant, Christian or not. Read around a subject.

Other folk will add other titles which I will either agree with or not, but that’s not the criterion
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Chadwick? Or, indeed, Chadwick?
 
lanman87 said:
And yet in the Papal Encyclical you referenced one of the errors being taught was:
  1. That heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit.
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Q’s:
  • who rained down fire on Sodom and Gomorrah?
  • souls in the fires of hell ? didn’t they all go against the Spirit some way shape of form?
  • Usually everything that a convicted heretic wrote, was burned. How about when they die, their bodies can’t be burned/cremated?
 
steve_b said:
Q’s:
  • who rained down fire on Sodom and Gomorrah?
  • souls in the fires of hell ? didn’t they all go against the Spirit some way shape of form?
  • Usually everything that a convicted heretic wrote, was burned. How about when they die, their bodies can’t be burned/cremated?
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Well, Sodom and Gomorrah and the Fires of Hell are the judgement of God, not men.

I seriously doubt that the error the reformers taught is that cremation is wrong. Especially since Huss and many others had been burned alive at the stake.

One of the great ironies I’ve come across is that the modern Roman Catholic Church is, perhaps, the largest anti-death penalty organization on the planet. Yet, during the inquisitions and during the reformation it was plainly pro-death penalty.
 
lanman87 said:
Well, Sodom and Gomorrah and the Fires of Hell are the judgement of God, not men.

I seriously doubt that the error the reformers taught is that cremation is wrong. Especially since Huss and many others had been burned alive at the stake.

One of the great ironies I’ve come across is that the modern Roman Catholic Church is, perhaps, the largest anti-death penalty organization on the planet. Yet, during the inquisitions and during the reformation it was plainly pro-death penalty.
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point being, it’s not against God to rain down fire on heretics.

Going back to the 1200’s
ewtn.com/library/councils/lateran4.htm

see how the Church deals with heretics, 2-3 — deal with heretics and contain dogmatic statements

especially section 3. Strong consequences but nothing lethal mentioned.

In a previous post you referred to another heresy around that time. Waldensians maybe?

I would just say, The Church can’t control the governments they are living with, nor what they do to punish such folks.
 
steve_b said:
point being, it’s not against God to rain down fire on heretics.

Going back to the 1200’s
ewtn.com/library/councils/lateran4.htm

see how the Church deals with heretics, 2-3 — deal with heretics and contain dogmatic statements

especially section 3. Strong consequences but nothing lethal mentioned.

In a previous post you referred to another heresy around that time. Waldensians maybe?

I would just say, The Church can’t control the governments they are living with, nor what they do to punish such folks.
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Drowning is a pretty bad way to go also.
 
Duane1966 said:
Well this is interesting.

patheos.com/blogs/scottericalt/giordano-bruno-and-the-truth-about-the-inquisition-part-1/

I have also heard from a historian (believe it was Madden) that in Spain, after a guilty verdict, the Inquisitors petitioned the king to spare the life of the guilty.
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The article is not exceptional, particularly in the “these times/those times” theme. The book by Peters that I recommended above includes a consideration of Bruno, as opposed to Galileo. Bruno was no Galileo.

Peters is recommended. Especially chapter 1, on the relationship between the Church and the secular powers with respect to heresy and the Inquisition. Peters is not the Black Legend. Nor is he a whitewash. Kamen is also recommended, for a focus on the Spanish Inquisition. Books are always best.

I have read of requests for leniency, but not as a regular practice; don;t recall where.
 
GKC said:
The article is not exceptional, particularly in the “these times/those times” theme. The book by Peters that I recommended above includes a consideration of Bruno, as opposed to Galileo. Bruno was no Galileo.

Peters is recommended. Especially chapter 1, on the relationship between the Church and the secular powers with respect to heresy and the Inquisition. Peters is not the Black Legend. Nor is he a whitewash. Kamen is also recommended, for a focus on the Spanish Inquisition. Books are always best.

I have read of requests for leniency, but not as a regular practice; don;t recall where.
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Books? Are those things still around?

This article isn’t bad either. catholicity.com/commentary/madden/03481.html

I have heard that Netanyahu’s book on the Inquisition is a very good read also. Have you read it?
 
Duane1966 said:
Books? Are those things still around?

This article isn’t bad either. catholicity.com/commentary/madden/03481.html

I have heard that Netanyahu’s book on the Inquisition is a very good read also. Have you read it?
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Yes. Or, most of it. It’s 1384 pages long, and will certainly tell you more about the Spanish Inquisition than anyone would expect. And sometimes I felt like a termite chewing through a concrete block.

Yes, books are still around. All around me, for sure. Kamen and Peters: the place to start.
 
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