Did G_D lie to the jews?

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God cannot lie and He did not lie to the Jews. Temple sacrifices were said to COVER for the sin of the offerant. And that meant that God not see that sin any more in anticipation of the anticipated atonement of the Messiah to come, described in Isaias as both a coming King of the lineage of David and a Suffering Servant of Isa.53.
Furthermore Heb 10 tells us that the Law made nothing perfect (the Law accuses but does not empower to satisfy it) for if did sacrifices would have ceased. It could cleanse for purification of the body but could not cleanse the conscience (free it from the guilt-penalty of sins) as in v2. However, the blood of bulls and goats could not take away sins (again only cover them).
It took the blood of the perfect lamb (Messiah, as symbolized in the passover bread (afikomen) to, once and for all (v10) ,and by one sacrifice (v12) forever, to cleanse forever those who come to Him in faith,fully trusting in His sacrifice as full and final payment for all sin (even O.T.) Godly Jews of the O.T. are just as saved in Heaven by the Jewish Messiah Yeshua as we gentiles are by the blood of the Cross.
 
algebra said:
G_D asked the high priest to sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins on the day of atonement.

Yet christians would have us believe that without jesus there was no forgiveness of sins.

Did G_D lie when He said that sins would be forgiven on ‘yom kippur’?
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It depends on what you choose to believe. It comes down to freedom of religion.👍
 
The graces of the cross of Christ flow forward and backward through time…God is not limited by time. The forgiveness found in the sacrafices of the temple get their POWER their effective grace, from the only source of forgiveness, Christ Jesus, whom these sacrafices prefigure. So, no, God did not lie.
 
algebra said:
Sorry that was mis typed, I meant that jesus is the eternal sacrifice.

Yet the sacrifices in the Torah also cleaned all the sins of the jewish nation

Vayikra 16:30
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Jesus released the good Jews from “Sheol” after his Death and resurrection to go to Heaven.
 
God did not lie to the Jews. But the Jews also rejected their Messiah, Jesus Christ. He himself said he was the Messiah, but some of them did not believe. Other Jews (his 12 apostles and hundreds of others) believed. Do you think rejection of God’s Messiah is not a grave sin? And if the Jews don’t repent of that sin, will they go to heaven (assuming that they are now convinced that Jesus is the Messiah)?
 
Yerusalyim said:
The graces of the cross of Christ flow forward and backward through time…God is not limited by time. The forgiveness found in the sacrafices of the temple get their POWER their effective grace, from the only source of forgiveness, Christ Jesus, whom these sacrafices prefigure. So, no, God did not lie.
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Excellent points, Yerusalyim. What the OP is overlooking, too, is that the sacrifices the Jews performed were only for the Jews, not for all mankind. Only Jesus, God Incarnate, could be/was the One Sacrifice for all peoples.
 
quote: algebra
G_D asked the high priest to sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins on the day of atonement.

Yet christians would have us believe that without jesus there was no forgiveness of sins.

Did G_D lie when He said that sins would be forgiven on ‘yom kippur’?
Click to expand...
Precisely, algebra. Christianity solely complicates, and explains - where no explanation is called for.

When addressing Christian belief - in those beliefs that are accepted by all Christians -
one notes that Saul of Tarsus, [St. Paul] made the assertion that original sin exists.
An ontologic ‘sin’ - in man’s very being, inherited from Adam, because of his sin.

This assertion is taken for granted, in Christianity,
which states that a new covenant was made. [a new testament].

It goes far beyond the issue of yom kippur, I think.

In the Hebrew scriptures, G-d offers forgiveness, salvation, and the green pasture. [Psalm 23]
The G-d of Israel is the Good Shepherd - Who saves, forgives, restores the soul,
and offers eternal life, in Olam Haba. [the World to Come.]

As to the messiah

jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm

Christianity is redundant in nature. The messiah of Christianity
offers what the G-d of Israel has already granted. e.g. -Yom kippur.]

Only by positing the existence of original sin, is a savior made necessary.
Each Christian denomination is acutely aware of this reality.
The catechism of the largest, and the earliest Christian Church, testifies to this reality:

From the Vatican website:

389​

The doctrine of original sin is, so to speak, the “reverse side” of the Good News that
Jesus is the Saviour of all men, that all need salvation and that salvation is offered to all through Christ. the Church, which has the mind of Christ, knows very well that we cannot tamper
with the revelation of original sin without undermining the mystery of Christ.

Christian theology states that Jesus of Nazareth is the lamb who was slain,
the flawless lamb and perfect victim - who takes upon himself the sins of
the people, and is the agent of change…in that he removes original sin, itself,
through the saving waters of baptism. One perfect sacrifice, for all time.

No original sin, no need for a savior from same.

One does not seek that which has already been found and granted.

reen12
 
Yerusalyim said:
The graces of the cross of Christ flow forward and backward through time…God is not limited by time. The forgiveness found in the sacrafices of the temple get their POWER their effective grace, from the only source of forgiveness, Christ Jesus, whom these sacrafices prefigure. So, no, God did not lie.
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I’ve never believed that God desires blood-sacrifice.
 
As to God’s revelation -

Christian theology is gorgeous. Jesus is said to be not only the perfect victim,
the perfect sacrifice - once, for all - Saul states, further, that Jesus was ‘made’ sin,
and that, in Jesus, both sin and death are conquered, eternally.

For our sake he made him to be sin who did not know sin, so that
we might become the righteousness of God in him. [2 Cor 5:21]

O death where is the victory, death - where is thy sting? [1 Cor 15: 55]

As wondrous as are these words - as are the parallels drawn - to given realities
in the Hebrew Scriptures - when one looks to the Hebrew Scriptures,
one finds that God has already granted forgiveness of sin, offers life everlasting,
as He gives, as well, existential meaning. He is meaning itself. I AM.

I always knew that there was something overly-complicated, about Christian belief.
The call to look inward, to be constantly soul-searching, as to sin…have I or haven’t I?
The continual emphasis on heaven - how to get there. The afterlife as so important -
that the now is mostly consigned to backdrop,* vis a vis *the afterlife, after this ‘vale of tears.’

Strife between the Christian denominations - as a member of one Church states
that his/her church is the true Church. Salvation - as complicated task:
-grace earned, and how…
-sacraments as fonts of grace
-the method of forgiveness [mediator or no]
-treasury of merits, that may be ‘applied’
-earn an indulgence… pass purgatory, go directly to heaven
-types of indulgences, partial and plenary
-how much on our part, how much on God’s part…as to our salvation
-complicated documents -----> defining justification, righteousness, atonement
-categories of grace and categories of sin
-looking inward, concerned over one’s salvation [saved or not?]
-forgiveness as complication itself, not the simple teshuvah -
the turning back to God.

No wonder the God of Israel offers a green pasture, wherein He gives
both rest and still waters, where He restores the soul.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

reen12
 
quote: reen12
I always knew that there was something over-complicated, about Christian belief.
The call to look inward, to be constantly soul-searching, as to sin…have I or haven’t I?
The continual emphasis on heaven - how to get there.
Click to expand...
Like the lions, surrounding Daniel, the questions present.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

I found it a wonder, when I learned that those, not of Israel, were welcome in the World to Come - would they acknowledge the God of Israel, as true God, Who is One, fulfill simple commands given to those not of Israel - commands which the Christian Churches would later term ‘the natural law.’

King Solomon, at the dedication of the temple:

For the foreigner, too, who is not of your people Israel, when he comes from a distant land to honor your great name, your mighty power, and your outstretched arm, when they come in prayer to this temple, listen from your heavenly dwelling place, and do whatever the foreigner entreats you, that all the peoples of the earth may know your name, fearing you as do your people Israel… 2 Chronicles 6: 32-33]

Israel was given the astounding task of bringing forward, through the millenia,
the knowledge of the one God. They do this, still. For those not of Israel,
there is room in the heart of God, too. No conversion to Judaism called for.
Judaism in not a proseletyzing faith. It seeks no converts, yet will accept same.

Those who acknowlege the God of Israel as the one, true God, while keeping the simple commands [natural law] given to those who are not of Israel, may pray to God, and be heard - ask forgiveness and be heard, offer prayers of praise and thanksgiving… for the world that God has given to them and to all others. To work - so that the world is a better place, for one having existed on earth. And, having done all of this, one will live in His presence, eternally.

Christianity, while having a stunningly beautiful theology, is yet redundant.

One does not continue to seek that which is found and granted.

reen12
 
KingAlfred said:
I’ve never believed that God desires blood-sacrifice.
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So Christ was crucified for the heck of it? For fun? If any other form of sacrifice than blood-sacrifice sufficed then Christ would not have gone through His passion.
 
For those who seek God, turning to the Christian Churches,
in their quest, what are they told?

That man is born into this world - flawed in his/her very being, born with original sin.
Said to be inherited from Adam. The one seeking God is told that we need saving
from this sin, and from personal sin. We need a savior.

That, apparently, is why it’s not enough, just to be born. To be ‘merely’ human.

Whenever someone says, “I belong to Paul,” and another, “I belong to Apollos,” are you not merely human? [1 Cor.3: 4]

Then what?

quote: reen12, from another thread
I always knew that there was something overly-complicated, about Christian belief.
Click to expand...
The call to look inward, to be constantly soul-searching, as to sin…have I or haven’t I?
The continual emphasis on heaven - how to get there. The afterlife as so important -
that the now is mostly consigned to backdrop,* vis a vis *the afterlife, after this ‘vale of tears.’

Strife between the Christian denominations - as a member of one Church states
that his/her church is the true Church. Salvation - as complicated task:
-grace earned, and how…
-sacraments as fonts of grace
-the method of forgiveness [mediator or no]
-treasury of merits, that may be ‘applied’
-earn an indulgence… pass purgatory, go directly to heaven
-types of indulgences, partial and plenary
-how much on our part, how much on God’s part…as to our salvation
-complicated documents -----> defining justification, righteousness, atonement
-categories of grace and categories of sin
-looking inward, concerned over one’s salvation [saved or not?]
-forgiveness as complication itself, not the simple teshuvah -
the turning back to God.

No wonder the God of Israel offers a green pasture, wherein He gives
both rest and still waters, where He restores the soul…

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

reen12
 
What are we to understand of God’s declaration through the prophet Jeremiah ch 6, about the future restoration of both houses, Israel and Judah, and His promise of a new Covenant (v31-34) not a covenant as He made with the Fathers as they were brought out of egypt (see also Heb 8:10-13)? This was the New Covenant of the Kingdom offered to Israel but rejected during Jesus time by the religious leaders. Thus it was postponed.Thus God called out a people for Himself from all the nations of the earth so as to form the church (body of Christ)made up of both Jews and Gentiles, as depicted in Ephesians 2:14-19, where the enmity and wall of separation between the two came tumbling down. Furthermore, Eph 1:10, in the Dispensation of the fullness of times, the Kingdom will be reoffered to Israel and accepted. Romans ch 9,10,11 tells us that God is not finished with Israel (no Replacement or Dominion theology which excludes Israel from the promises of God).The nation (not individual people) has been set aside temporarily till the time of the gentiles is ended (gentiles are saved under the promises of blessings to nations in the Abrahamic Covenant) and then it will be restored, regathered and reign with Messiah in the throne of David for a 1000years Rev 20. There are too many promises to Israel in Ezequiel with prophesies in Isaias and the lesser prophets that cannot be ignored. So, the New Covenant was promised in the O.T. as unconditional and future at the time penned by Jeremiah the prophet.
As to the actual practice in rituals ceremonies, traditions, sacraments etc that complexity is often much beyond understading (scriptures are simpler I think).
 
I know that at times, God required blood (animal) sacrifices, but in Jewish law those are not the only kinds of sin atonements. Proverbs 16:6 among others, establishes this.

We also know in Judaism that God would never require any form of human sacrifice. When God commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son, He sent an angel to stop him just in time, and instead, had him sacrifice a ram caught in the nearby thicket.

This was to show two things: a) God was only testing Abraham, and b) God stopped a human sacrifice, and replaced it with an animal sacrifice…to show that God would never demand the sacrifice of any human, only animals.
 
Jesus was crucified. This is the starting point. We cannot give one reason for His death . He did not die “because” of Original sin, He did have to die “to save us” or “because there is sacrifice offring in the OT”.

Do you want to know how much i love you? that much, and He streched out His arms. Do you want to know how much am serious about you? that much, and He streched out His arms. Do you want to know that I am the resurrection and life? He streched out His arms. Do you want further proof that am i who i say i am?He streched out His arms.

Now you can talk about humanity’s sins against God, sacrifices of the OT and how all these are seen in light of Jesus’ death but the starting point is Jesus’ death, not the original sin or Jewish sacrifices as if He couldn’t do anything else.
 
Because ‘blood’ signifies to Man ultimate sacrifice, ancient Jews projected that human trait onto God, and mistakenly thought He wanted animal-slaughter as a symbol of devotion. When Jesus was crucified, the post-Easter church, under the influence of Judaic theology and law, grafted that concept onto the meaning of His death.

I don’t believe God wants blood. He created all that exists, and sees nothing special in blood, per se. God wants life – abundant life. Self-sacrifice for Him, however, is indeed the most noble and endearing act of devotion one can perform, when His Church and people are under attack.

No…God never wanted poor animals, much less His Son, to be tortured under the blade and/or spike, for purposes of propitiation. That’s always been a human invention, based on a simple misunderstanding and natural tendency to project human values onto God. All ritualistic language concerning Christ’s metaphorical identity as the ‘lamb of God’ is just a linguistic ‘carry-over’ from that initial misperception.

Yes…I know…I know. This makes me a heretic. Sorry.:o
 
inJESUS said:
why?
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Wait and see. The accusation will pop up the more I keep talking like this. I don’t mind. I love the Catholic Church and would die for it if God called upon me to do so. Labels don’t pertain to or concern me. I live in the *Universal of Jesus Christ. *👍
 
KingAlfred said:
Wait and see. The accusation will pop up the more I keep talking like this. I don’t mind. I love the Catholic Church and would die for it if God called upon me to do so
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i still do not see anything heretic in what you wrote. When i think of Jesus , the last thing i think about is original sin or animal sacrifice…i do not even think about them… He is the lamb of God because He willingly gave Himself to everyone, not because He couldn’t do otherwise…He died, that is the fact, and any theological response as to the “why” is explained in light of His death rather than potraying it as the reason He “had” to die as if we are limiting His sacrifice.

Some say Jesus had to die, i believe He did not “have” to die and this does not make me or you a heretic.
 
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