Did God cause this typhoon to strike the Philippines? (poll)

[catholictiger]

I agree with this

again its the idea of primary and secondary causality.

the modern world has destroyed these concepts and makes this question much more difficult to answer.

 

[tonyrey]

Yes, because all that is originates from God. No, because God protects us from nothing but sustains us in all things. While the Typhoon is a result of his creation (and possibly man’s activities on the planet)…he does not interfere with the naturally occurring results of the created universe.

Usually!

 

[tonyrey]

I agree with this

again its the idea of primary and secondary causality.

the modern world has destroyed these concepts and makes this question much more difficult to answer.

That’s why its interpretation of reality is incoherent!

 

[josh987654321]

I selected other.
Gospel of John:

John 9:1-3

Jesus Heals a Man Born Blind

9 As Jesus walked along, he saw a man who had been blind since birth. 2 Jesus’ disciples asked, “Teacher, why was this man born blind? Was it because he or his parents sinned?”

3 **“No, it wasn’t!” **Jesus answered. **“But because of his blindness, you will see God work a miracle for him. **

Extract from the book "From Sinai to Calvary":

• loveandmercy.org/Eng-FSC-Reg.pdf (Page 15)

For more information please go here or read the opening pages of the book linked above.

Jesus said: **“Contemplate this scene, My beloved, and learn that My own cannot march through life without a cross. 4) “Go and tell the world what you are learning and, if they want to silence you, shout even louder. Do this for the sake of the power of the love that unites you to Me, which is as united as these two pieces of wood that form an instrument of salvation for all of humanity.

1. “Tell the consecrated souls that the cross that they wear, is not only to adorn their chests or identify them superficially with Me. First they must gird themselves with the cross and learn to “make themselves comfortable” on it instead of running away from it. Tell them they cannot long for Tabor, if they have not first passed through Golgotha. It is here on the Cross where they will learn charity, humility, poverty of spirit and temperance in all acts of their lives. 6) “Assure them that I give proof and testimony that, the devil can be easily defeated from the experience of the cross. Contemplate Me: I am a true Man, in whom the flesh manifests its limitations, and true God, in demonstrating the relentless force of Agape Love.
2. “Pray for those who do not know of sufferings, for it is certain that they are not among My own…Observe these two condemned ones who flank Me** (He is reffering to the two men who were also crucified on either side of him) **and meditate on the ways that men carry their crosses. 8) “Some carry it with rage, with bitterness, amidst much grief. He who carries a cross in similar circumstances and with those sentiments, carries for sure a cross, which has no sense because instead of drawing him closer, it pushes him away from Me. Usually that is the cross of those who refuse to understand the meaning of suffering, which takes on supernatural dimensions. That is the cross of the thief at My left, it is the cross which will always be heavy and will never be able to redeem.
3. “Dismas, on My right, accepts his cross with resignation and even with dignity; he assumes it at first because he has no other recourse. But suddenly, when he recognizes Me and knows that I Am the Son of God, he accepts that cross, acknowledging himself as a sinner, and asking that through it, Mercy remembers him. 10) “Finally, you have Me here in front of you, embracing My redeeming Cross to teach all of you to carry yours. I invite you to be co-redeemers with Me, making reparation for your own sins and those of all mankind. Know that this way of carrying the cross is reflected in your conduct, when before you are difficulties and pains and through them you draw closer to Me and you profit from them to give testimony before men. When you embrace your cross, you can feel that the only thing you desire is strength, because the thirst for souls consumes you.”**

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[Tomdstone]

IMHO, the power of God is ultimately directly/indirectly in everything - God is all in all, without God nothing can exist, or indeed happen.

Are you then saying that God did cause the misery to innocent children and babies when they were struck with horrible injuries and suffering, and in some cases death, when they were hit by the typhoon?

 

[Tomdstone]

I think a much better explanation about natural disasters and evil is that in fact natural disasters are NOT evil. They are in fact good because they are a natural part of God’s creation, but after the fall our intellect was distorted by sin and because of this we no longer see the good in these natural phenomenons that seem to be disastrous.

I don’t see the painful suffering and horrific misery inflicted on children as a result of natural disasters to be a good. Can you explain why it is a good thing for a healthy child to be crippled, lose the sight of one eye, and live in horrible pain and suffering for the rest of his life?

 

[josh987654321]

I believe those who focus on God’s omniscience and omnipotence, end up in a mess. We should instead focus on the truths that God has revealed to us, which is his infinite love.

I strongly suggest those struggling with this meditate on the Extract in my previous post I provided you with, that show the two ways that people carry their crosses and how one serves to redeem and save us and the other serves to distance us and condemn us.

God only reveals to us, that which we need to know, that which serves to save us, the rest, we must have faith in God’s infinite love.
Gospel of John:

John 9:1-3

Jesus Heals a Man Born Blind

9 As Jesus walked along, he saw a man who had been blind since birth. 2 Jesus’ disciples asked, “Teacher, why was this man born blind? Was it because he or his parents sinned?”

3 **“No, it wasn’t!” **Jesus answered. “But because of his blindness, you will see God work a miracle for him.

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[catholictiger]

I don’t see the painful suffering and horrific misery inflicted on children as a result of natural disasters to be a good. Can you explain why it is a good thing for a healthy child to be crippled, lose the sight of one eye, and live in horrible pain and suffering for the rest of his life?

what I’m trying to explain that the natural processes of the earth are intended by God. Hurricanes, tornadoes, etc. are natural processes. God put into creation the natural processes because of this these are by their nature good.

The suffering of children is a natural evil and I never said it was a good thing. But what you must understand is that God can bring out a greater good out of evils and at the same time this earth is not the final good. In light of the eternal reward of heaven suffering can be seen as redemptive and a path of people to the eternal joys of heaven. I think with this hope suffering can be seen as a good because it brings about a good and without the hope of heaven it is difficult to see how suffering and death could be good.

 

[josh987654321]

The suffering of children is a natural evil and I never said it was a good thing. But what you must understand is that God can bring out a greater good out of evils and at the same time this earth is not the final good. In light of the eternal reward of heaven suffering can be seen as redemptive and a path of people to the eternal joys of heaven. I think with this hope suffering can be seen as a good because it brings about a good and without the hope of heaven it is difficult to see how suffering and death could be good.

We must remember, that it was only through the power of the cross (suffering), the way in which St Dismas carried that cross (Acknowledging himself as a sinner and asking that through his sufferings, mercy remembers him, making reparation for his own sins and that of all mankind), that saved him, that made him escort for the king of kings, that warranted such a reply from our lord “I promise that today you will be with me in paradise.” - Luke 23:43

*Humility opens the doors to the kingdom of heaven. *

Do not be discouraged by our crosses, instead we should learn to carry them as Christ and St Dismas did, the way in which we carry our crosses has incredible power in our salvation and we would lose this incredibly powerful path to salvation without the cross.

I do not fully know the meaning of suffering, but I do know, that simply by the way we carry our crosses, it does have incredible power in our salvation and offers for us many graces.

Jesus is the ultimate example of the tremendous power of the cross.

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[Tomdstone]

what I’m trying to explain that the natural processes of the earth are intended by God. Hurricanes, tornadoes, etc. are natural processes. God put into creation the natural processes because of this these are by their nature good.

Since these natural processes cause a lot of misery and suffering to innocent children who have done no wrong, I don;t see how they are good for the victims.

 

[tonyrey]

what I’m trying to explain that the natural processes of the earth are intended by God. Hurricanes, tornadoes, etc. are natural processes. God put into creation the natural processes because of this these are by their nature good.

The suffering of children is a natural evil and I never said it was a good thing. But what you must understand is that God can bring out a greater good out of evils and at the same time this earth is not the final good. In light of the eternal reward of heaven suffering can be seen as redemptive and a path of people to the eternal joys of heaven. I think with this hope suffering can be seen as a good because it brings about a good and without the hope of heaven it is difficult to see how suffering and death could be good.

For those who decide there is nothing but this life everything becomes meaningless.

 

[Tomdstone]

For those who decide there is nothing but this life everything becomes meaningless.

According to what I understand it was the preVatican II teaching of the RCC that Infants who are unbaptized go to a place in hell called limbo according to what is taught in the Baltimore catechism which possess the nihil obstat and imprimatur. So if they are victims of a natural disaster, after all their suffering on earth, they can only look forward to an eternity outside of heaven. On October
29, 1951, in his Allocution to Midwives, Pope Pius XII said:
“In the present state there is no other way of communicating [sanctifying
grace] to the child who has not yet the use of reason [other than Baptism].
But, nevertheless, the state of grace at the moment of death is absolutely
necessary for salvation. Without it, it is not possible to attain
supernatural happiness, the beatific vision of God. An act of love can
suffice for an adult to obtain sanctifying grace
and supply for the absence of Baptism; for the unborn child or for the newly
born, this way is not open.”

 

[Peter_Plato]

According to what I understand it was the preVatican II teaching of the RCC that Infants who are unbaptized go to a place in hell called limbo according to what is taught in the Baltimore catechism which possess the nihil obstat and imprimatur.

Limbo was never portrayed as “a place in Hell.” It was proposed as a place of eternal natural happiness.

Neither was Limbo ever a doctrine of the Church, but rather a proposed answer by theologians concerning the necessity of Baptism to attain Heaven. There are other possibilities that have been considered or proposed, but none are official doctrine.

 

[catholictiger]

Since these natural processes cause a lot of misery and suffering to innocent children who have done no wrong, I don;t see how they are good for the victims.

just explained it to you

Scripture tells us that God wills that all go to heaven

if children have truly done no wrong than there is nothing that should separate them from Christ for all eternity. If you understand that the world is going to a final end and that final end is the greatest good of all, all things that work towards that final end are in themselves good even if they look from a human perspective as evil. I believe all things are working to a final end meaning all things are working for the greatest good.

 

[catholictiger]

Limbo was never portrayed as “a place in Hell.” It was proposed as a place of eternal natural happiness.

Neither was Limbo ever a doctrine of the Church, but rather a proposed answer by theologians concerning the necessity of Baptism to attain Heaven. There are other possibilities that have been considered or proposed, but none are official doctrine.

its an issue of pluralism of the Church. Now I do have on my reading list THE HOPE OF SALVATION FOR INFANTS WHO DIE WITHOUT BEING BAPTISED from the Vatican. Not written by a pope but this may give some insight into this issue for me.

Now some in the Church argue that the desire of the Church for the baptism of all human beings will cover for the desire that an unbaptized infant cannot have. The intent of the parents are necessary for baptism, but the Church allows in extraordinary circumstances, aka the nearness of death for the infant or the sick, someone can baptize them and it will be considered valid. The question is does the intent of the sacrament removed in this situation or does a non family member’s intent apply when it normally doesn’t. If the Church desires the baptism of unbaptized infants could it be the case that through baptism by desire they will receive the graces of baptism and go to heaven.

What the Church does teach though is that we should entrust the salvation of the unbaptized to God. What that means is up to interpretation, I find it hard to believe that any unbaptized infant is in hell and I’m now finding it easier to believe that God will bring them to heaven and not put them in “limbo”

 

[Tomdstone]

if children have truly done no wrong than there is nothing that should separate them from Christ for all eternity.

This is not the teaching of Pope Pius XII on October 29, 1951, in his Allocution to Midwives, where he said that unbaptized children will not attain the beatific vision. (See above). Of course, this teaching has been changed since Vatican II so that we can hope that there is some way that they can, but it is not known with certainty., as I understand it to be.

 

[josh987654321]

This is not the teaching of Pope Pius XII on October 29, 1951, in his Allocution to Midwives, where he said that unbaptized children will not attain the beatific vision. (See above). Of course, this teaching has been changed since Vatican II so that we can hope that there is some way that they can, but it is not known with certainty., as I understand it to be.

What is known for certainty is God’s love for us.

Nothing is impossible for God, nor must he follow his own rules, why do you have such little faith in God’s love?

I believe this kind of legalism will only serve to distance you from our lord and his love.

Remember what Jesus said about the Sabbath?
Gospel of Mark:

Mark 2:23-27

A Question about the Sabbath

23 One Sabbath Jesus and his disciples were walking through some wheat fields. His disciples were picking grains of wheat as they went along.[g] 24 Some Pharisees asked Jesus, “Why are your disciples picking grain on the Sabbath? They are not supposed to do that!”

25 Jesus answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his followers were hungry and in need? 26 It was during the time of Abiathar the high priest. David went into the house of God and ate the sacred loaves of bread that only priests are allowed to eat. He also gave some to his followers.”

27 Jesus finished by saying, “People were not made for the good of the Sabbath. The Sabbath was made for the good of people. 28 So the Son of Man is Lord over the Sabbath.”

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[hu324b]

What does God basically say to Job - how can you with your feeble tiny human mind understand my plan my work or even the battle of good verses evil.You can try but you can’t put God in a box - it is beyond our understanding.

 

[smichhertz]

I’m not to sure that what the Catechism here is saying what you say it says.

This is well established Church teaching:

of God, though without the preternatural privileges of bodily immortality or perfect control of appetite

Source: papalencyclicals.net/Pius11/P11RAPPR.HTM

The three gifts of bodily immortality, integrity and infused knowledge are called *preternatural *because they are not strictly due to human nature but do not, of themselves, surpass the capacities and exigencies of created nature as such. In other words, they are not entitatively supernatural.

Father Hardon
Source: therealpresence.org/archives/God/God_013.htm

They include three great privileges to which human beings have no title–infused knowledge, absence of concupiscence, and bodily immortality. Adam and Eve possessed these gifts before the Fall.

Catholic Culture
Source: catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=35763

I could keep going. Just google “Catholic preternatural gifts”.

 

[smichhertz]

yes the was a fall and the Church has said there are these gifts given to us.

but what does those gift look like. Does bodily immortality mean that God removed natural death, or does that mean before a man would die he would take them up to heaven. No matter what this bodily immortality is supernatural and not natural, meaning that it would have no impact on the natural processes of the world.

I think you’re confused here. Bodily immortality is not supernatural. God created man as immortal in both body and soul. That’s our TRUE nature. We lost that and are now in a fallen state where our bodies must die. That’s why they are called PREternatural gifts and not SUPERnatural gifts.

It’s Church teaching that had we not sinned in the Garden, we would not have had to undergo bodily death.