Did God create evil?

[marie0014]

Just curious, but did God create evil? I mean, in the bible it says everything He created was good, but before the beginning of time, before Lucifer, didn’t he have to create evil for it to even exist? Disobedience so that it would exist? Sin? Yes, sin is disobedience of God’s laws, but he’d have to create sin for it to exist. Right?

 

[rossum]

Just curious, but did God create evil? I mean, in the bible it says everything He created was good, but before the beginning of time, before Lucifer, didn’t he have to create evil for it to even exist? Disobedience so that it would exist? Sin? Yes, sin is disobedience of God’s laws, but he’d have to create sin for it to exist. Right?

Isaiah 45:7 - “I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.” (Douay-Rheims)

rossum

 

[Della]

In order for God to have created evil/sin they would have to be positive things like light or goodness. But, just as darkness is merely the absence of light so sin is the absence of goodness. Evil is not a thing–it the absence of a thing–what is good and right.

So, if I steal something I haven’t done a positive thing, but a negative thing–I’ve robbed someone of their property–taken something away not given something that is theirs.

If I murder someone I take their right to live away from them–a negative not a positive action.

If I lie about someone I rob them of their good name. Again, it’s a negative action instead of a positive one, such as telling the truth.

Lucifer was an angel of light who chose to reject God. His rejection was an action of his free will. Free will is a positive thing but all sentient beings that God created can decide not to serve him because he gave us the choice. We are not bound to reject God, therefore it’s not a positive thing to reject him but a negative.

Is that helpful or only more confusing?

 

[Barbkw]

We, His creation, created evil.

It’s proof that we are not automatons. We don’t have the wisdom of God, and most of what we touch, we screw up.

Much like children, who want to pour their own glass of milk.

 

[marie0014]

How would we create evil? I can see that we performed evil by sinning, but the idea of evil had to be created by God right? How else would you answer this:

Isaiah 45:7 - “I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.”

 

[Barbkw]

usccb.org/nab/bible/isaiah/isaiah45.htm#foot4

I form the light, and create the darkness, I make well-being and create woe; I, the LORD, do all these things.

4 [7] Create woe: God permits evil for the sake of a greater good.

 

[Barbkw]

How would we create evil? I can see that we performed evil by sinning,

scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p6.htm#376

MAN IN PARADISE

374 The first man was not only created good, but was also established in friendship with his Creator and in harmony with himself and with the creation around him, in a state that would be surpassed only by the glory of the new creation in Christ.

375 The Church, interpreting the symbolism of biblical language in an authentic way, in the light of the New Testament and Tradition, teaches that our first parents, Adam and Eve, were constituted in an original “state of holiness and justice”.250 This grace of original holiness was “to share in. . .divine life”.251

376 By the radiance of this grace all dimensions of man’s life were confirmed. As long as he remained in the divine intimacy, man would not have to suffer or die.252 The inner harmony of the human person, the harmony between man and woman,253 and finally the harmony between the first couple and all creation, comprised the state called “original justice”.

377 The “mastery” over the world that God offered man from the beginning was realized above all within man himself: mastery of self. The first man was unimpaired and ordered in his whole being because he was free from the triple concupiscence254 that subjugates him to the pleasures of the senses, covetousness for earthly goods, and self-assertion, contrary to the dictates of reason.

378 The sign of man’s familiarity with God is that God places him in the garden.255 There he lives “to till it and keep it”. Work is not yet a burden,256 but rather the collaboration of man and woman with God in perfecting the visible creation.

379 This entire harmony of original justice, foreseen for man in God’s plan, will be lost by the sin of our first parents.

scborromeo.org/ccc/index/c.htm

Concupiscence

the Commandments and, 2529, 2534
fight against, 978, 1264, 1426, 2520, 2530
of the flesh, 2514, 2520
Law and, 1963, 2542
meaning and kinds of, 2514-15
original sin and, 376, 400, 405
purification of the heart and, 2517, 2530
sin and, 1869
See also Desire; Lust

 

[Barbkw]

scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p7.htm#400

Man’s first sin

397 Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and, abusing his freedom, disobeyed God’s command. This is what man’s first sin consisted of.278 All subsequent sin would be disobedience toward God and lack of trust in his goodness.

398 In that sin man preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good. Constituted in a state of holiness, man was destined to be fully “divinized” by God in glory. Seduced by the devil, he wanted to “be like God”, but “without God, before God, and not in accordance with God”.279

399 Scripture portrays the tragic consequences of this first disobedience. Adam and Eve immediately lose the grace of original holiness.280 They become afraid of the God of whom they have conceived a distorted image - that of a God jealous of his prerogatives.281

400 The harmony in which they had found themselves, thanks to original justice, is now destroyed: the control of the soul’s spiritual faculties over the body is shattered; the union of man and woman becomes subject to tensions, their relations henceforth marked by lust and domination.282 Harmony with creation is broken: visible creation has become alien and hostile to man.283 Because of man, creation is now subject “to its bondage to decay”.284 Finally, the consequence explicitly foretold for this disobedience will come true: man will “return to the ground”,285 for out of it he was taken. Death makes its entrance into human history.286

401 After that first sin, the world is virtually inundated by sin There is Cain’s murder of his brother Abel and the universal corruption which follows in the wake of sin. Likewise, sin frequently manifests itself in the history of Israel, especially as infidelity to the God of the Covenant and as transgression of the Law of Moses. And even after Christ’s atonement, sin raises its head in countless ways among Christians.287 Scripture and the Church’s Tradition continually recall the presence and universality of sin in man’s history:

What Revelation makes known to us is confirmed by our own experience. For when man looks into his own heart he finds that he is drawn towards what is wrong and sunk in many evils which cannot come from his good creator. Often refusing to acknowledge God as his source, man has also upset the relationship which should link him to his last end, and at the same time he has broken the right order that should reign within himself as well as between himself and other men and all creatures.288

 

[danserr]

How would we create evil? I can see that we performed evil by sinning, but the idea of evil had to be created by God right? How else would you answer this:

Isaiah 45:7 - “I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.”

I think Dorothy Sayers had a line somewhere in one of her plays, though I’m getting it from her The Mind of the Maker

• “Did God create evil?”
• “As light creates darkness.”

 

[Barbkw]

I think Dorothy Sayers had a line somewhere in one of her plays, though I’m getting it from her The Mind of the Maker

• “Did God create evil?”
• “As light creates darkness.”

The absence of light is darkness.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Just curious, but did God create evil? I mean, in the bible it says everything He created was good, but before the beginning of time, before Lucifer, didn’t he have to create evil for it to even exist? Disobedience so that it would exist? Sin? Yes, sin is disobedience of God’s laws, but he’d have to create sin for it to exist. Right?

Sin is not something thats created. Its the absence of God’s presence and love. Evil is darkness. God created only light. But where the light doesn’t shine, there is darkness.

 

[Sheadad]

Quote:
Originally Posted by marie0014
Just curious, but did God create evil? I mean, in the bible it says everything He created was good, but before the beginning of time, before Lucifer, didn’t he have to create evil for it to even exist? Disobedience so that it would exist? Sin? Yes, sin is disobedience of God’s laws, but he’d have to create sin for it to exist. Right?

Isaiah 45:7 - “I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.” (Douay-Rheims)

Well for what it’s worth, let’s see what response I get from this;

The beauty of creation is absolutely beyond our comprehension. Our words even with varying languages are not able to describe the power of His Grace that flows through and in us. This is why creation is tough to understand, we try to reconcile our understanding of our existance with God’s nature. God’s creation created harmony of man and woman with his grace (i’m summarizing from the CCC). Yes this was part of the design so that we might get a glimpse of his majesty while at the same time to reveal our utmost potential. However as all things being perfect through Him in creation; the “fall” as it were, was also (humbly), part of the design. Consider the circumstances orchestrated by Him and understand that it was also “for” him. I’ll save more for another time, but for now, consider that all things renewed in life are for His greater glory. “all the angels in heaven rejoice when one sinner repents”. The glory that he receives from one that repents is only achieved by that sinner turning a way from such sin.

Blessings to all,
Shaun

 

[tonyrey]

Quote:
Originally Posted by marie0014
Just curious, but did God create evil? I mean, in the bible it says everything He created was good, but before the beginning of time, before Lucifer, didn’t he have to create evil for it to even exist? Disobedience so that it would exist? Sin? Yes, sin is disobedience of God’s laws, but he’d have to create sin for it to exist. Right?

Isaiah 45:7 - “I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.” (Douay-Rheims)

Well for what it’s worth, let’s see what response I get from this;

The beauty of creation is absolutely beyond our comprehension. Our words even with varying languages are not able to describe the power of His Grace that flows through and in us. This is why creation is tough to understand, we try to reconcile our understanding of our existance with God’s nature. God’s creation created harmony of man and woman with his grace (i’m summarizing from the CCC). Yes this was part of the design so that we might get a glimpse of his majesty while at the same time to reveal our utmost potential. However as all things being perfect through Him in creation; the “fall” as it were, was also (humbly), part of the design. Consider the circumstances orchestrated by Him and understand that it was also “for” him. I’ll save more for another time, but for now, consider that all things renewed in life are for His greater glory. “all the angels in heaven rejoice when one sinner repents”. The glory that he receives from one that repents is only achieved by that sinner turning a way from such sin.

Blessings to all,
Shaun

A warm welcome to the forum, Shaun!

God is the ultimate Creator of everything and everyone but that does not mean He brings evil into existence. It is a consequence of finitude and free will.

Evil is the necessary price for independence, i.e. a physical existence and the capacity for love.

 

[marie0014]

A warm welcome to the forum, Shaun!

God is the ultimate Creator of everything and everyone but that does not mean He brings evil into existence. It is a consequence of finitude and free will.

Evil is the necessary price for independence, i.e. a physical existence and the capacity for love.

That makes sense that it is a consequence of free will, but God had to create the idea that someone could disobey him. And that would be the essence of ‘evil’. He could have created free will and said that if someone didnt obey him, nothing bad would happen. It just wouldnt be good. I dont agree that the absense of good is evil because there are things that are neutral. But instead he created the idea of evil. Right? I’m still kinda confused.

 

[Nelka]

Isaiah 45:7 - “I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.” (Douay-Rheims)

rossum

Evil?

Isiah 45:7 I form the light and I create the darkness, I make well-being, and I create disaster, I, Yahweh, do all these things.

New Jerusalem Bible.

 

[tonyrey]

That makes sense that it is a consequence of free will, but God had to create the idea that someone could disobey him. And that would be the essence of ‘evil’. He could have created free will and said that if someone didnt obey him, nothing bad would happen. It just wouldnt be good.

Marie, an act like killing a person incurs its own punishment because it alienates that person from others and destroys their trust. The Greek idea of nemesis and the Indian belief in karma are based on the truth that justice is at the heart of reality. We inevitably receive what we deserve, not because God has made arbitrary rules but because He is infinitely good and just. By giving us free will He makes us responsible for what we do. It would defeat the purpose of giving us free will if He made us immune to the consequences of our abuse of it.

I dont agree that the absence of good is evil because there are things that are neutral. But instead he created the idea of evil. Right? I’m still kinda confused.

The existence of neutral things doesn’t alter the difference between good and evil. God didn’t create evil or the idea of evil. It is the result of our failure to act reasonably.

All evil is ultimately due to ignorance because it is not in our interest to be selfish. But it is culpable ignorance because we know it is wrong even if we don’t know that when we harm others we do more harm to ourselves in the long run. It doesn’t pay to be morally corrupt and lose our integrity…

 

[tonyrey]

Marie, an act like killing a person incurs its own punishment because it alienates that person from others and destroys their trust.

But of course it also has far worse spiritual consequences. If a murderer does not bitterly regret what he has done and become purified by suffering he pays the ultimate price - not physical death but death as far as heaven is concerned: hell…

 

[jschutzm]

1ST:

That makes sense that it is a consequence of free will, but God had to create the idea that someone could disobey him. And that would be the essence of ‘evil’. … But instead he created the idea of evil. Right? I’m still kinda confused.

We only KNOW what is evil because he puts within us a seed or a foundation of good. We only recognize what is evil because we know what good is. God created good and that is sufficient for us to know evil, because we know what the opposite of good is.

I know a hole when I see one, only because I know what dirt looks like and that there should be dirt there, but is not. Likewise, we know what is sin and what is evil, because God created good and made us desire truth and love.

When someone deviates from this… we know this is evil. That someone CAN deviate from this, is because of freewill.

But God no more gave us evil, as I can hand you a hole or sell you darkness.

2ND:

… He could have created free will and said that if someone didnt obey him, nothing bad would happen. It just wouldnt be good.

Choices without consequences are not real choices. There can not be justice without consequences to our choices. Love can not exist without a freewill to choose.

So God would have created a mockery of choice, if he created a world where our choices didn’t impact our universe. It would be a kind of quasi-static universe, where no matter what we did… nothing evil happened.

NO, instead, he created a dynamic world, where our actions impact the events and things around us. Where our actions have consequences and where we have the freewill to love one another.

Choice, and by extension, freewill, was logically created so that we could love. However, choice implies that we can also choose badly and rebel. It is intrinsic and integral.
You can not have true choice or really have freewill and NOT have the ability to rebel.

So God created GOOD things… like freewill and choice, so that we can love and our actions matter. It is OUR perversion of this which rebels against his design and creates sin and evil in the process.

3RD:

I dont agree that the absense of good is evil because there are things that are neutral.

That’s a slightly different argument, which I don’t think we can cover here. But suffice to say, without getting too derailed, I’d argue that “gray” areas typically exist when someone’s sense of right and wrong, good and evil, get muddled up or confused. Anotherwards, the person dwelling in the gray area has an illformed conscience and a weak sense of morality.
But that’s another topic altogether.

 

[Sheadad]

Quote:
Originally Posted by rossum
Isaiah 45:7 - “I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.” (Douay-Rheims)

rossum
Evil?

Isiah 45:7 I form the light and I create the darkness, I make well-being, and I create disaster, I, Yahweh, do all these things.

New Jerusalem Bible.

Amen; The reason why there is confusion on this issue is because we don’t understand the nature of our will. We as Catholics tend to use freely the phrase “free will”, yet Paul’s letters explain more deeply for those that understand the nature of our will. He explains his own struugle with sin and reveals how belonging to Christ brings us into righteousness. Then in Romans 8.20, “for the creation was subject to futility, not of it’s own will but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope.” then in 8.26, “likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but that very Spirit intercedes… For the saints according to the will of God.”.

Ok, so subject to futility is the “fall”. Our weakness is our struggle with sin. The spirit interceding is God’s Spirit that creates a helping hand which can be brought on by prayer, which Paul is explaining that this in itself is more important and more of a challenge than we think to get it right. This is where our will is exercized. But by his grace, we can achieve help from our weakness and those of us that are Saints (those in Christ), are justified in him. In other words we can rest in him even with our struggles.

Someone posted that He didn’t create sin, it was a byproduct or consequense of our willfulness of rejection, no, read Issah 45 and give All the glory to Him, regardless is you want to take credit or not for any of it. We had nothing to do with creation or any of it’s results, we ARE the consequence, our sinful nature is what we got, but thanks be to God for the sacrafice of His son, that blood was shed so that we might have eternal salvation through him.

Thanks for the warm welcome,
Blessings to all,
Shaun