Did God Create the World in Six Days?

[BrJuniper]

I am asking the question based on our dialogue? I want to know your position.

me - Your claim is that human reasoning of our observations limited by our 5 senses, time and 3 dimensions is superior to Revelation?

You do not understand what I wrote if the above represents your conclusions. Human reasoning is governed by the rules of Logic and is not limited by our senses but informed with them. Your straw man fallacy notwithstanding, one cannot read genesis absent its historical context, an understanding of its literary genre and a basic grasp of Judaism in its historical context. It seems that what you want to do is like discussing calculus with someone who has never studied Trigonometry. When it is pointed out that the individual lacks Trig they cite a tertiary source as proof they have studied it, then proceed to contradict same. You need to study Trig before we can discuss Clac.

 

[buffalo]

You do not understand what I wrote if the above represents your conclusions. Human reasoning is governed by the rules of Logic and is not limited by our senses but informed with them. Your straw man fallacy notwithstanding, one cannot read genesis absent its historical context, an understanding of its literary genre and a basic grasp of Judaism in its historical context. It seems that what you want to do is like discussing calculus with someone who has never studied Trigonometry. When it is pointed out that the individual lacks Trig they cite a tertiary source as proof they have studied it, then proceed to contradict same. You need to study Trig before we can discuss Clac.

Just wanted to be sure you were not advocating scientism.

As a starting point we can agree that Faith and Reason cannot be opposed?

 

[BrJuniper]

Just wanted to be sure you were not advocating scientism.

As a starting point we can agree that Faith and Reason cannot be opposed?

People oppose them all the time. Right reason is the goal. Scotus calls it Individual Right agency. As a rule though, caution is advised as ALL matters of Faith involve the gift of Faith and, when using reason, involve a reasonable inference.

 

[buffalo]

People oppose them all the time. Right reason is the goal. Scotus calls it Individual Right agency. As a rule though, caution is advised as ALL matters of Faith involve the gift of Faith and, when using reason, involve a reasonable inference.

Cool.

Do you have a date and document as to when the constant teaching and understanding of the Church regarding six days changed?

 

[BrJuniper]

Cool.

Do you have a date and document as to when the constant teaching and understanding of the Church regarding six days changed?

Never…you confuse Dogma with Doctrine and Pious Practice. It was never Dogma that it was six days. Later in Genesis God created all in an instant. We do not confine God with theology. Define Church?

 

[TS_Aquinas]

People oppose them all the time. Right reason is the goal. Scotus calls it Individual Right agency. As a rule though, caution is advised as ALL matters of Faith involve the gift of Faith and, when using reason, involve a reasonable inference.

You do know Scotus advocated fideism though, right?

 

[edwest2]

vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_10021880_arcanum_en.html

“Though revilers of the Christian faith refuse to acknowledge the never-interrupted doctrine of the Church on this subject, and have long striven to destroy the testimony of all nations and of all times, they have nevertheless failed not only to quench the powerful light of truth, but even to lessen it. We record what is to all known, and cannot be doubted by any, that God, on the sixth day of creation, having made man from the slime of the earth, and having breathed into his face the breath of life, gave him a companion, whom He miraculously took from the side of Adam when he was locked in sleep.”

Peace,
Ed

 

[BrJuniper]

You do know Scotus advocated fideism though, right?

If you equate Aristotle with Reason, but I think his epistemology is better characterized as knowing, with the required theological understandings. ie Love is real though to Aristotle unreasoned.

 

[BrJuniper]

vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_10021880_arcanum_en.html

“Though revilers of the Christian faith refuse to acknowledge the never-interrupted doctrine of the Church on this subject, and have long striven to destroy the testimony of all nations and of all times, they have nevertheless failed not only to quench the powerful light of truth, but even to lessen it. We record what is to all known, and cannot be doubted by any, that God, on the sixth day of creation, having made man from the slime of the earth, and having breathed into his face the breath of life, gave him a companion, whom He miraculously took from the side of Adam when he was locked in sleep.”

Peace,
Ed

Wow…Remember man that thou art slime and unto slime thou shall return? Doctrine changes all the time. God created the world and humans.

 

[Gblat]

Well, the bible describes Jesus’ genealogy from Adam. So I don’t believe Genesis was symbolic.

Simple logic dictates that if a premise is false even a true conclusion does not validate it. Science assumes only the existence of the natural. If we only believed in the natural the bible is nonsense. But if the supernatural exists, then there is room for error in what we deduce by our assumptions.

If God possibly created a full-grown man instantaneously, there is no reason He cannot create a full grown universe instantaneously. Eucharists turning into heart tissue makes no sense, but through God all things are possible.

If I’m not mistaken, there are two genealogies for Jesus, and they both go to Joseph, not Mary. Am I way wrong, and does this matter? I’m also pretty sure that the Church doesn’t require us to believe that the Garden story has to be taken literally.

 

[Gblat]

Well, then there would be an equally disturbing position to defend: that God revealed Himself to some tribe in the Middle East and that He did not bother to warn everyone else and will send you to hell for not believing despite having no warning or naturalistic sign that shows which religion is true.

After experiencing the reality of the spiritual myself I no longer think we can freely assume naturalistic explanation. For instance the Universe WOULD be billions of years old unless some unnatural force was in play to accelerate the effects of time. We assume no invisible variables in science and yet at the same time we religiously profess the supernatural exists. I can’t understand the gospel without Adam and Eve, and I cannot understand how we inherited their sin if we evolved side by side with other species.

I just think that our theories presume naturalism but if reality includes the supernatural then there is a great chance that we get invalid results.

I don’t doubt your spiritual experience, I’m not sure what you mean by “naturalistic.” And there have been other explanations about the garden that jibe with it being symbolic.

 

[buffalo]

If I’m not mistaken, there are two genealogies for Jesus, and they both go to Joseph, not Mary. Am I way wrong, and does this matter? I’m also pretty sure that the Church doesn’t require us to believe that the Garden story has to be taken literally.

No. One is through Mary the other through Joseph.

The Genealogy from Adam to Jesus Christ

 

[Gblat]

the Bible says 6 days

we know it’s billions of years.

Bible is wrong, face it.

one of the reasons i’ve lost my faith.

I can understand why that might happen for you. I wonder if you have considered more deeply the idea of myth and parable. “Myth” originally meant a teaching tale that had a core meaning similar to a parable. And we know that parables have levels of meaning to protect the innocent and entice the seeker. Since the Bible is not in agreement with aspects of science, though it is coincidentally in agreement as to some history and geography, it is useful to take more as a book of psychological wisdom. But that’s hard to do in some instances, too, isn’t it.

 

[fms]

I do not want you to assume that I am a scientist or any of the above disciplines. I love thinking about the wonders of our universe. I study on my own but I do not have the discipline to be anything more than an arm-chair admirer of those who really do devote their lives to the search for truth. For I do believe that truth does exist. I believe that we are obliged to seek truth even if truth is more often than not beyond our ability to understand.

It seems to me that it would be hard to see the wonders of something like an eye and not have anyone to say ‘thank you’. I am fortunate to live in Western Colorado. There are many nights when I can behold the wonders of the universe in the sky. The stars against the black sky speak to me of the wonder of God.

How lonely we would be if God did not exist. How vast the universe. How frail the human being. Yet we are given the gift the love it. For this I am grateful beyond measure.

This is just beautiful! Lovely!

 

[fms]

Genesis 1 seems to be written form God’s Perspective.

Imagine a rolled up tape measure. God sees the rolls all at once. We live on the tape measure, and we have to see the actual divisions as we look back.

Faith and reason do intersect in certain areas. Human reasoning of our observations are a weakness.

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?albumid=639&pictureid=7720

Interestiing…

 

[fms]

bowing to the god of BUC makes materialists look irrational in my opinion.

What is god of BUC?

 

[fms]

On the use of language:

I wanted to throw this out there:

It is nearly been four and a half centuries since Galileo and we still say the sun rises and sets…

 

[fms]

I do not want you to assume that I am a scientist or any of the above disciplines. I love thinking about the wonders of our universe. I study on my own but I do not have the discipline to be anything more than an arm-chair admirer of those who really do devote their lives to the search for truth. For I do believe that truth does exist. I believe that we are obliged to seek truth even if truth is more often than not beyond our ability to understand.

It seems to me that it would be hard to see the wonders of something like an eye and not have anyone to say ‘thank you’. I am fortunate to live in Western Colorado. There are many nights when I can behold the wonders of the universe in the sky. The stars against the black sky speak to me of the wonder of God.

How lonely we would be if God did not exist. How vast the universe. How frail the human being. Yet we are given the gift the love it. For this I am grateful beyond measure.

Saint Bakhita (I believe before her conversion):

"Seeing the sun, the moon and the stars, I said to myself: who could be the Master of these beautiful things? And I felt a great desire to see him, to know him, and to pay him homage…"

Her desire has been fulfilled.

This is where I can hear Jesus say, ‘The former slave girl will rise with this generation and condemn it…’

 

[chosen_people]

Regardless of the author’s intent, the fact remains that for thousands of years almost all good, God-fearing, Bible-believing Jews and Christians have taken the creation account literally. 6 days meant 6 24-hour days. If the author is God Himself, then didn’t the author foresee that?

Would God knowingly mislead people into believing something that isn’t true?

You do a disservice to Jews and Judaism. Judaism is an intellectual, reasoning and questioning religion. A Jew does not read that on the seventh day God rested and think - oh my- God must have been very tired after all that work creating the world and needed to lay down. Rather he asks what is the significance that we are told that God Himself rested on the seventh day and what are we meant to learn from this regarding the Sabbath? He asks himself, why does the Torah begin with the creation of the world and not the giving of the first commandment or with Abraham? He asks himself, why are we taught that God created the world in six days when being God, He could have created the entire world in an instant? He asks himself, what is the significance of the chronology in the creation story? Is it meant to be taken as chronological and if so is it significant that man and woman were created last? There is a difference between the question of “who is the author?” and between the question “what is the author trying to say?”.

 

[fms]

You do a disservice to Jews and Judaism. Judaism is an intellectual, reasoning and questioning religion. A Jew does not read that on the seventh day God rested and think - oh my- God must have been very tired after all that work creating the world and needed to lay down. Rather he asks what is the significance that we are told that God Himself rested on the seventh day and what are we meant to learn from this regarding the Sabbath? He asks himself, why does the Torah begin with the creation of the world and not the giving of the first commandment or with Abraham? He asks himself, why are we taught that God created the world in six days when being God, He could have created the entire world in an instant? He asks himself, what is the significance of the chronology in the creation story? Is it meant to be taken as chronological and if so is it significant that man and woman were created last? There is a difference between the question of “who is the author?” and between the question “what is the author trying to say?”.

Just blown away by a number of very reasonable and very reasoning posts. By contrast those posts that are quick to be dismissive and in doing so being a disservice first and foremost to their intellect.