Did God Have Control over the Effects of Original Sin?

[paramedicgirl]

clarkal:

I see. What do you mean, though: “so I wouldn’t think about God”? Why didn’t you want to think about him?

I simply meant that these books kept me from thinking about God. They consumed all my spare time.

 

[clarkal]

oh, ok. thanks.

 

[paramedicgirl]

clarkal:

Could you explain a little bit more? What do you mean when you say “because of our moral consciences?”

By our moral consciences we understand the seriousness of sin. By revelation we know that hell is real. So it makes sense that if you commit serious sin and die unrepentant, you risk eternal hellfire.

clarkal:

Why do you think that I am not really an atheist? I’m interested in knowing your reasons for thinking so.

Because you are searching for the truth. You are very focused on punishment, hell and damnation. You are concerned for your soul or we wouldn’t be having this conversation. You are a very well educated person, Clarkall. You seek the truth. It would be better, though, to educate yourself on the mercy and goodness of God, than to focus too much on eternal damnation.

 

[paramedicgirl]

clarkal:

That’s very flattering. I honestly do not know a lot. I am admittedly quite ignorant, which is why I have come here to challenge my reasons for unbelief and to clear up any misunderstandings I might have about Christianity in general. However, I used to be an orthodox Roman Catholic, and although that doesn’t make me an expert on the subject, I’d say that I do know more than the average Joe about the Church.

Here is another reason I think you are not an atheist.

 

[paramedicgirl]

clarkal:

As my father was dying of cancer, I had many doubts about whether he would end up in this fiery pit. He did great things and influenced so many people, but he was not religious, and he told me that he had indeed committed Mortal Sins and hadn’t been to confession in about 30 years. Naturally, I feared for his soul. With this anxiety, I began having the classic doubts about the doctrine of eternal punishment that almost every person goes through. During this time when my father was slowly and painfully dying from cancer, I was hospitalized for my abnormal behavior caused by the OCD and religious teachings on the hospital’s mental ward floor for about 5 days. On the day I was released, my father was in and out of consciousness and, shortly afterward, eventually died. I missed so much crucial time with him because of my OCD and religion, and saying that I’m a little pissed off is a gross understatement. I felt like I was abandonded by the heavenly court in my time of need.

After his death, I was thinking about hell constantly and whether he was actually there, which is a terrifying thought for a son who loves his father and thinks the world of him. Yes, if he’s there, it was his decision, his free will, and it is a just punishment, and when – if – you get to heaven, you will have a full view of the burning multitudes, and you will not have any pity or sadness towards them but joy knowing that God’s glory and justice were being glorified (I know the last bit isn’t official, but it’s what I thought at the time after reading Aquinas.)

Clarkall, how do you know your father wasn’t given the grace at the moment of death to make a perfect act of contrition? Perhaps you should be praying for his soul.

 

[paramedicgirl]

clarkal:

I understand the part about jeopardizing your faith. For me, I had so many doubts that I believed it would be sinful* not to* settle them, as I was counseled by Fr. Bob Levis that they would just become worse and damage my life of faith, so I read skeptical literature.

And this literature destroyed your faith.

 

[Mystophilus]

clarkal:

The book of Genesis makes it seem like He does. He increases the woman’s labor pains, man will toil, etc.

If God is omnipotent, as asserted in other books within the Bible, then yes, God has control over everything.

But is this just literary?

God knows, but we certainly don’t. The fact that Genesis 1 and 2 are clearly not meant to be taken literally may suggest that other elements of the story may also be non-literal.

God would never purposely create something like anxiety disorders such as OCD which clash with his belief system and make life unbearable, right?

This is not necessarily true. Human beings are amazingly adaptive creatures, especially in psychological terms. Typically, a person who has hardly ever suffered will take any ill far worse than normal, and a person who has suffered a lot will be far more resilient than normal. Given this effect, it is debatable whether the sum total of psychological suffering would change were the sum total of material suffering to be somehow altered. This condition would, therefore, obtain in all circumstances except one of zero suffering.

I can’t even begin to imagine what life would be like believing in Catholicism without medication for these mental problems.

Yet many millions of people did it for many hundreds of years.

 

[Mystophilus]

clarkal:

You might argue free will here, but what of it? To use another analogy, if your 12 year old was considering doing cocaine, would you say, knowing that she wasn’t as intelligent and knowledgeable as you are, “I wouldn’t do that, as it’s really bad for your body and mommy will punish you severely, but it’s your free will, so go ahead if you really want to, because I respect your free will.” I doubt anyone would and harsher measures would be taken.

Regarding your general point, I agree completely: It would be an inherently unjust act to condemn anyone to any form of punishment for something over which they personally had no control.

Regarding the twelve-year-old, you have a choice. If you advise her, educate her, or even beat her, that would not stop her from trying the drug. In fact, your actions may encourage her to do it as an act of rebellion or self-destructive revenge. The only way to actually stop her is to imprison her. This is the same problem that a society faces regarding its own people: the freedom to live is the freedom to commit crimes.

But we’re not even talking about a 12 year old doing crack. We’re talking about something infinitely worse: eternal misery.

I may be missing something here, but what is the connection to “eternal misery”? I thought that you were talking about life, which is often uncomfortable, sometimes bad, and occasionally downright awful. It is also often fun, sometimes great, and occasionally absolutely fantastic.

 

[Mystophilus]

Tantum ergo:

Human minds are limited. What we think “fair” or “unfair” is based on HUMAN standards.

What we think about anything, including God, is based upon HUMAN standards.

Mr. X or Ms. Y see “unfairness” all around and leap to the conclusion that because they (in their limited human way) see unfairness, and since God must allow it, then God can’t be “fair”.

Given the fact that “their limited human way” is their only means of assessing anything, why not complain about unfairness? Abraham did. Moses did. Job did. At least one angel did. Jeremiah did. I could keep going, but I would like to hope that the point has been made.

In the Bible, numerous people complain about the unfairness of their situation, and God consistently permits them to do so. We have the right, because God grants it to us. God does not suppress our freedom of speech.

 

[clarkal]

paramedicgirl:

By our moral consciences we understand the seriousness of sin. By revelation we know that hell is real. So it makes sense that if you commit serious sin and die unrepentant, you risk eternal hellfire.

Right, but this misses my point.

paramedicgirl:

Because you are searching for the truth. You are very focused on punishment, hell and damnation. You are concerned for your soul or we wouldn’t be having this conversation. You are a very well educated person, Clarkall. You seek the truth. It would be better, though, to educate yourself on the mercy and goodness of God, than to focus too much on eternal damnation.

No, I am focused on punishment, hell, and damnation in this thread. It is the topic of conversation, so this is why it seems so.

Yes, I am searching for the truth. I want to know if my objections to Catholicism are misunderstandings, but not because I am afraid that Catholicism might be true, but because I want my understanding to be correct for future dialogues. I am quite sure that Catholicism is untrue. There is no anxiety here.

 

[clarkal]

paramedicgirl:

Here is another reason I think you are not an atheist.

Yes, I also want to be challenged on my beliefs. I think that is fun. But I doubt, overall, this will change my mind regarding the validity of Catholicism.

 

[clarkal]

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut, Mystos. I’ll reply later when I am not so drowsy.

 

[barsapp]

clarkal:

thank you for insulting my intelligence. What you just stated is a form of Pascal’s Wager.

Well, I quoted Pascal, you quoted Democritus. As I said before “Nothing is new under the sun.” Ecc. 1, 9).

Now I quote St. Paul (1 Corinthians 1, 25-29): ”For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength. Consider your own calling, brothers. Not many of you were wise by human standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. Rather, God chose the foolish of the world to shame the wise, and God chose the weak of the world to shame the strong, and God chose the lowly and despised of the world, those who count for nothing, to reduce to nothing those who are something, so that no human being might boast before God.”

Your statement “I am quite sure that Catholicism is untrue” (if we can consider it as a demonstration of “human wisdom”) clearly shows that human wisdom does not bring us to Christ.

 

[clarkal]

paramedicgirl:

Clarkall, how do you know your father wasn’t given the grace at the moment of death to make a perfect act of contrition? Perhaps you should be praying for his soul.

I couldn’t know that, and that’s what made it so hard. Doubt. And OCD is about anxiety and doubt.

 

[clarkal]

Mystophilus:

If God is omnipotent, as asserted in other books within the Bible, then yes, God has control over everything.

What about free will?

Mystophilus:

This is not necessarily true. Human beings are amazingly adaptive creatures, especially in psychological terms. Typically, a person who has hardly ever suffered will take any ill far worse than normal, and a person who has suffered a lot will be far more resilient than normal. Given this effect, it is debatable whether the sum total of psychological suffering would change were the sum total of material suffering to be somehow altered. This condition would, therefore, obtain in all circumstances except one of zero suffering.

Perhaps physical suffering. But does this apply to an all-consuming, uncontrollable and irrational mental disease such as anxiety or OCD? I suffered physically before I suffered mentally, and it is different. Also, I have had seriously bad OCD symptoms for years now, and there is no change in the amount that I perceive that I suffer. I have never really adapted to it.

Alterum:

Yet many millions of people did it for many hundreds of years.

But that doesn’t mean they were happy or mentally stable people. Their quality of life was horrendous. Some would leave religion all together and others would commit suicide. Before there was proper medication for OCD, priests would say that the most difficult and draining people to deal with were people with scrupulosity. (Fr. Bob Levis told me this was so, especially during the 1950s and 60s.) They lead torturous lives, entirely consumed with the fear of hell and sin.

Read the Catholic Encyclopedia’s Article on ‘Scrupulosity’.

 

[clarkal]

Mystophilus:

Regarding your general point, I agree completely: It would be an inherently unjust act to condemn anyone to any form of punishment for something over which they personally had no control.

Then you disagree with the teaching of Original Sin?

Mystophilus:

Regarding the twelve-year-old, you have a choice. If you advise her, educate her, or even beat her, that would not stop her from trying the drug. In fact, your actions may encourage her to do it as an act of rebellion or self-destructive revenge. The only way to actually stop her is to imprison her. This is the same problem that a society faces regarding its own people: the freedom to live is the freedom to commit crimes.

I may be missing something here, but what is the connection to “eternal misery”? I thought that you were talking about life, which is often uncomfortable, sometimes bad, and occasionally downright awful. It is also often fun, sometimes great, and occasionally absolutely fantastic.

I was using an analogy in regards to Original Sin. My point was that if the stakes are infinitely and eternally high, then God *should *step in and stop us from making an unintelligent decision, something that we puny humans cannot even comprehend. Unlike the 12 year old’s parents, of course, He has the power to do more, for he can do everything, as you said.

But then, of course, one gets into the argument that if there is no free will, then there is no love and people are simply robots. But if your little child (and we are children in God’s eyes, being an infinite and eternal being) said she wanted to take a nose dive into a bomb fire, would you say, OK, Honey, I respect your free will so much that I won’t interfere? No, you would stop your child regardless of how much you “respected” her free will because she cannot comprehend the situation like you and see it’s awfulness.

 

[clarkal]

barsapp:

Well, I quoted Pascal, you quoted Democritus. As I said before “Nothing is new under the sun.” Ecc. 1, 9).

I didn’t quote Democritus. I quoted the author of the web site ebonmusings.org. The whole quote was about how our energy moves on into different forms when we die, so I don’t see how the quote “Nothing is new under the sun” applies to what I quoted.

You said:

barsapp:

What really matters: some die expecting to live the true life in God. Others die expecting nothing. You****do not have to be very smart to notice that the first option is the “reasonable” one. With the first one, you could gain eternal life. With the second one, certainly nothing. If the first one results false, you lose nothing. If the second one results false, you lose all. Nobody is saved against its own will.

I don’t see any quote marks here, and I searched Google.com and nothing came up. Did Pascal make the bolded statement or did you? If you said it, then it is insulting, but I do not know whether you said it intentionally.

barsapp:

Now I quote St. Paul (1 Corinthians 1, 25-29): ”For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength. Consider your own calling, brothers. Not many of you were wise by human standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. Rather, God chose the foolish of the world to shame the wise, and God chose the weak of the world to shame the strong, and God chose the lowly and despised of the world, those who count for nothing, to reduce to nothing those who are something, so that no human being might boast before God.”

Your statement “I am quite sure that Catholicism is untrue” (if we can consider it as a demonstration of “human wisdom”) clearly shows that human wisdom does not bring us to Christ.

Well, why did God gives us a brain then?

 

[clarkal]

Here’s a excerpt from the Catholic Encyclopedia’s article on scrupulosity entitled Scruple:

“The judgment is seriously warped, the moral power tired out in futile combat, and then not unfrequently the scrupulous person makes shipwreck of salvation either on the Scylla of despair or the Charybdis of unheeding indulgence in vice.”

Here’s an article that talks about St. Ignatius of Loyola and how he contemplated suicide because of his scrupulosity:

anxietyandstress.com/sys-tmpl/ocdreligionscrupulosity/

If that can happen to a great Saint, what hope is there for us ordinary people?

I will try to get more examples of people committing suicide because of scrupulosity, if that will be helpful or needed.

 

[LSK]

I think that whether they are affected by the ruler’s declaration of war does not matter. What matters is whether it is fair

for the people who do not support him, which I don’t see how it is.

I may be wrong but I think you are trying to apply human values to the Creator and there is a danger in that - He is outside the realm of time, space and our own understanding.

I agree that the children are affected, but I think it is still unfair, because they are innocent children who have no choice in the matter.

If you gambled away your money on roulette, do you think it would be right to let your children share in your newfound poverty and suffer with you or would you send them to your rich brother-in-law? No, because it was your bad decision. It’s not their fault. Why should they suffer?

Similarly, a crack addict will give up a child knowing that he does not deserve her situation, that it would be unfair for the child to suffer her circumstances because of her bad decisions.

I think you might be able to understand it using these two examples this way:

If you gamble away your money because you suffer from an addiction to gambling, there is a real good chance that your children will have inherited the tendency towards a similar addiction. That is not fair, but it is part of the package involved in being your children. They may or may not choose to ever gamble…my brother and I both inherited the gene for alcoholism but he has chosen, through strength of will power and very close monitoring of his behavior, not to take certain actions which could lead to the development of the disease in himself. I, on the other hand, became a full blown alcoholic.
The child of the crack addict may be out of the ‘lifestyle’ but may develop health problems as a result of the mother and the father ingesting crack. It is not fair but it happens.

But the difference between your second example and the story of Original Sin is that Adam and Eve had children after

they committed their sin, which I think is somewhat damnable, because they are then responsible for having babies knowing full well that they would share in their fallen state. And if God didn’t tell them what would happen, then He is responsible. Also, God foresaw what would happen if humans kept populating the Earth. He knew ahead of time of all the unimaginable suffering that would occur, every disease and every war, every damned soul.

But what a dilemna! God gave them the commandment to be fruitful and multiply - should they decide to disobey Him a second time what a problem that could lead to! And of course God is responsible - He is the Author of All Truth…could it be that He has a plan that man cannot completely understand? Afterall, great goodness has come from great evil.

You might argue free will here, but what of it? To use another analogy, if your 12 year old was considering doing cocaine, would you say, knowing that she wasn’t as intelligent and knowledgeable as you are, “I wouldn’t do that, as it’s really bad for your body and mommy will punish you severely, but it’s your free will, so go ahead if you really want to, because I respect your free will.” I doubt anyone would and harsher measures would be taken. But we’re not even talking about a 12 year old doing crack. We’re talking about something infinitely worse: eternal misery.

You would say what God said to His Creatures - here is some DEFINITE rules to follow. BUT, even using your own example, your 12 year old could still defy you and use drugs, have sex, commit a crime - afterall, they have free will.

Remember, eternal misery is not the fate of God’s Creatures today. GREAT GOODNESS COMES FROM GREAT EVIL…it is often difficult to see it, and sometimes we are so blinded by the pain we never see it, but it is there. In the depths of Auschwitz were the shining souls of Maximillian Kolbe and Edith Stein.

I know. I used to be Catholic.

You still are - once Baptized you remain a Catholic. You have just gone off the path. WELCOME - it looks like you may be on the road home.

A lot of what you are doing is trying to apply human qualities to the Lord. Also, you need to remember HOW we read the Holy Scripture - we are not literalists. We read it in a literal manner. The difference can best be explained by thinking of the phrase “raining cats and dogs”. If I say that to you, and you run outside ready to catch the puppies and kittens falling from the sky then you are a literalist. But if you hear that phrase and you think, 'Wow, it is really raining hard outside!" then you are using a literal sense to interpret what I am saying.

 

[clarkal]

LSK:

I think you might be able to understand it using these two examples this way:

If you gamble away your money because you suffer from an addiction to gambling, there is a real good chance that your children will have inherited the tendency towards a similar addiction. That is not fair, but it is part of the package involved in being your children. They may or may not choose to ever gamble…my brother and I both inherited the gene for alcoholism but he has chosen, through strength of will power and very close monitoring of his behavior, not to take certain actions which could lead to the development of the disease in himself. I, on the other hand, became a full blown alcoholic.
The child of the crack addict may be out of the ‘lifestyle’ but may develop health problems as a result of the mother and the father ingesting crack. It is not fair but it happens.

Is there any evidence that gambling addictions can be inherited from one’s family members? My mother is a big gambler; I am not. I absolutely hate it.

I agree about alcoholism. There is evidence to support this. But, as you said, it is not fair. This is exactly my point. It is not just or fair for innocent children to inherit a disease that they had nothing to do with.

LSK:

But what a dilemna! God gave them the commandment to be fruitful and multiply - should they decide to disobey Him a second time what a problem that could lead to! And of course God is responsible - He is the Author of All Truth…could it be that He has a plan that man cannot completely understand? Afterall, great goodness has come from great evil.

Yes, great goodness has come from evil, but there is more evil in the world than goodness, which I think is self-evident. Africa, anyone?

LSK:

You would say what God said to His Creatures - here is some DEFINITE rules to follow. BUT, even using your own example, your 12 year old could still defy you and use drugs, have sex, commit a crime - afterall, they have free will.

See my previous post to Myst for my explanation of this analogy.

LSK:

You still are - once Baptized you remain a Catholic. You have just gone off the path. WELCOME - it looks like you may be on the road home.

If I am, I don’t know about it – that is, on the road home.

LSK:

A lot of what you are doing is trying to apply human qualities to the Lord. Also, you need to remember HOW we read the Holy Scripture - we are not literalists. We read it in a literal manner. The difference can best be explained by thinking of the phrase “raining cats and dogs”. If I say that to you, and you run outside ready to catch the puppies and kittens falling from the sky then you are a literalist. But if you hear that phrase and you think, 'Wow, it is really raining hard outside!" then you are using a literal sense to interpret what I am saying.

Yes, this is a great and convenient excuse for God. It’s just saying that God works in mysterious ways, and that his ways are not our ways. He can get away with what we consider moral atrocities, things that go against all our innate sensibilities, with this saying.

I personally cannot accept such excuses. As an atheist, I must make my decision based on what I believe and think is truthful.

I mean, you could say the same for Allah. His religion seems barbaric and unjust, but his ways are not our ways, so you better believe, heathen, before you wind up in hell!

So, I don’t think it’s a very good defense.