Did God INTEND to create us, if so where is our free will?

[ConfusedLad]

Hi, this question has been troubling me for some time.

The question is this: Did God intend to create each of us (for the purposes of this discussion, let’s say did He intended to create me?) Or did he not intend to create me and did he just leave it to chance? I acknowledge that He KNEW from all eternity that I would exist at a certain point in time, but did He actually INTEND to create me from all eternity.

The thing is, if God intended from all eternity to create me, surely he would have had to bring my parents together, and their parents and so on all the way back, just in order for me to exist. How then do we explain the free will of my ancestors - surely God would have had to manipulate their free will in getting each of them together in order to create me?

The Church teaches that God does not interfere with our free will. At the same time, there are passages in Scripture which allude to God wanting to create all of us individually. Going by that teaching, I’m a bit confused as to how God could have wanted to create me, and yet not interfered with the free will of all my ancestors, in order to produce me.

Any thoughts on this is much appreciated, thanks!

 

[spockrates]

Hi, this question has been troubling me for some time.

The question is this: Did God intend to create each of us (for the purposes of this discussion, let’s say did He intended to create me?) Or did he not intend to create me and did he just leave it to chance? I acknowledge that He KNEW from all eternity that I would exist at a certain point in time, but did He actually INTEND to create me from all eternity.

The thing is, if God intended from all eternity to create me, surely he would have had to bring my parents together, and their parents and so on all the way back, just in order for me to exist. How then do we explain the free will of my ancestors - surely God would have had to manipulate their free will in getting each of them together in order to create me?

The Church teaches that God does not interfere with our free will. At the same time, there are passages in Scripture which allude to God wanting to create all of us individually. Going by that teaching, I’m a bit confused as to how God could have wanted to create me, and yet not interfered with the free will of all my ancestors, in order to produce me.

Any thoughts on this is much appreciated, thanks!

Great question! I suppose God’s intention might have been to create the human race, and not you, specifically. However, being able to see clearly down the corridor of time, He is likely able to enter time and space and work effectively and unmistakably in your life.

It might be not so much that he creates the beginning of you. Instead, perhaps, He is creating the *now *you. You are His living work of art! The neat thing is, I think, that you are just as much the artist of yourself as He is. The choice you have is this: Do you want Him to help you create you, or do you prefer He leave you alone to do it yourself?

Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

(Psalm 51:10)

 

[Prodigal_Son]

The thing is, if God intended from all eternity to create me, surely he would have had to bring my parents together, and their parents and so on all the way back, just in order for me to exist. How then do we explain the free will of my ancestors - surely God would have had to manipulate their free will in getting each of them together in order to create me?

Not so. You don’t have a full idea of God’s omnipotence yet. God can do any logically possible thing. It is logically possible for God to have you – exactly as you are – pop out of the bud of a maple tree. That’s not God’s style, but He could do it.

Nevertheless, there’s also the fact that God knows everything in advance. Although you parents chose freely, God knew from the beginning of time what choice they would make. So, from his perspective, it is absolutely not coincidental that you exist. His “plan” takes into account all the free decisions of all people, and works through them a work of Providence.

 

[ckempston]

Free will is an illusion. We don’t have it. The Scriptures are quite clear on this, and all the mental gymnastics in the world can’t negate the fact.

Even Faith is not a “choice,” it is a gift from God. Look it up.

 

[DOShea]

Free will is an illusion. We don’t have it. The Scriptures are quite clear on this…

Huh?

 

[ckempston]

Huh?

Surely that’s not the first time you’ve heard someone make that claim? I have no doubt that it certainly appears from our point of view that we make choices and have free will; however, I contend that the Scriptures teach the exact opposite as plain as day. It may be that God allows a small amount of free choice insofar as it does not change his overall plan. To say that man has complete free will is, however, patently (and Biblically) false.

Jesus teaches it so emphatically that he repeats himself in the same chapter just to make sure his listeners understand:

John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws (Greek: drags) him, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

John 6:65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.”

Those who were appointed to eternal life (first) believed (second).

Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

God determined times and places where men should live. He couldn’t very well do that without violating free will at least some of the time.

Acts 17:26 From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live.

Romans 9 is a complete refutation of free will. Particularly the following verses:

Romans 9:19-21 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ “Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?”

This was a perfect opportunity for Paul to espouse a free will doctrine, but does he do so? No, he does just the opposite.

God causes people to be deceived. Admittedly, this is a strange cause/effect passage and it is unclear what comes first. The fact that God sends the delusion so people will continue in unbelief is nonetheless opposed to free will.

2 Thess 2:12-13 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Numerous examples about in both the Old and New Testaments beyond these (such as Pharaoh and David), but how many passages do you need that plainly refute the Western (Catholic) understanding of free will?

 

[tonyrey]

The question is this: Did God intend to create each of us (for the purposes of this discussion, let’s say did He intend to create me?) Or did he not intend to create me and did he just leave it to chance? I acknowledge that He KNEW from all eternity that I would exist at a certain point in time, but did He actually INTEND to create me from all eternity.

If we believe in free will - and it is unreasonable not to - we must also believe we have some effect on what happens. So procreation implies co-creation! God obviously creates us to reproduce but we are the ones who choose when and where to do so - unless we do so unintentionally.

The thing is, if God intended from all eternity to create me, surely he would have had to bring my parents together, and their parents and so on all the way back, just in order for me to exist. How then do we explain the free will of my ancestors - surely God would have had to manipulate their free will in getting each of them together in order to create me?

As Pascal remarked, history would have been different if Cleopatra’s nose had been shorter ! There is an element of chance in what happens. Add to this the element of free will and we see that it is impossible for us to know precisely to what extent events are directly willed by God.

The Church teaches that God does not interfere with our free will. At the same time, there are passages in Scripture which allude to God wanting to create all of us individually. Going by that teaching, I’m a bit confused as to how God could have wanted to create me, and yet not interfered with the free will of all my ancestors, in order to produce me.

Since our existence is the result of co-operation there is no problem. We are the result of our genetic makeup but we also have free will which is a direct gift from God and the source of our individuality as a person…

 

[Areopagite]

John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws (Greek: drags) him, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

John 6:65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.”

It is true that no one can “come to Jesus” (and that includes gaining the supernatural knowledge of his divinity as well as loving him as such) unless they are given the grace to do so. However, when they are given that grace, it is possible to reject the grace with free will.

Those who were appointed to eternal life (first) believed (second).

Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

Why did God appoint them to eternal life? Is it possible because He knew from all time that they would ultimately believe? Why not?

Thomas Aquinas says: “Predestination is the foreknowledge and preparation of the benefits of God, by which whosoever are freed will most certainly be freed.”

God determined times and places where men should live. He couldn’t very well do that without violating free will at least some of the time.

Acts 17:26 From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live.

There are plenty of times people don’t want to live somewhere but they do nonetheless. If God really wanted them somewhere, and the person tries to leave, God can cause something to happen that prevents him from leaving. This is not coercion of will but coercion of the body. (this is one example to disprove your point … I guess I could think up more creative ones too)

Romans 9 is a complete refutation of free will. Particularly the following verses:

Romans 9:19-21 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ “Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?”

I’m not quite sure why this a refutation of free will at all. Could you explain it more clearly?

This was a perfect opportunity for Paul to espouse a free will doctrine, but does he do so? No, he does just the opposite.

God causes people to be deceived. Admittedly, this is a strange cause/effect passage and it is unclear what comes first. The fact that God sends the delusion so people will continue in unbelief is nonetheless opposed to free will.

2 Thess 2:12-13 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

I might be crazy, but the 2 Thess 2:12-13 that I looked up read:

“But we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, beloved of God, for that God hath chosen you firstfruits unto salvation, in sanctification of the spirit and faith of the truth: Whereunto also he hath called you by our gospel, unto the purchasing of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Numerous examples about in both the Old and New Testaments beyond these (such as Pharaoh and David), but how many passages do you need that plainly refute the Western (Catholic) understanding of free will?

Please go into detail what you mean to point out with the Pharaoh and David.

 

[ecce_ego]

I would submit that if God intended to create you, then you had no free will in the first place. I could gouge your eyes out and then tell you that you are free to walk around with a seeing eye dog for the rest of your life, too…

 

[donsnow]

Free will is an illusion. We don’t have it. The Scriptures are quite clear on this, and all the mental gymnastics in the world can’t negate the fact.

Even Faith is not a “choice,” it is a gift from God. Look it up.

Which scriptures? Are you even referring to the Holy Bible’s scriptures?

Don

 

[ckempston]

Which scriptures? Are you even referring to the Holy Bible’s scriptures?

Don

Don, you obviously missed my other post, in which I referred to several passages supporting my assertion. Feel free to respond in kind. So far, no Catholic has responded with a single Scripture. Interesting, eh?

 

[ckempston]

It is true that no one can “come to Jesus” (and that includes gaining the supernatural knowledge of his divinity as well as loving him as such) unless they are given the grace to do so. However, when they are given that grace, it is possible to reject the grace with free will.

Certainly, from our perspective we seem to be able to reject Grace. However, as I pointed out, Paul clearly responds to the argument that no one resists God’s Will with what? Not a rebuke and an explanation of “free will,” but with the basic statement, “who do you think you are to question God?” Perfect opportunity to espouse free will. In fact, it can be argued that there is no better opportunity in the whole of Scripture. But what does Paul do? Does he say, hold on believers, let me explain to you how free will works? No, he says, God will have mercy on whoever he wants. Period. No free will explanation. Odd.

Why did God appoint them to eternal life? Is it possible because He knew from all time that they would ultimately believe? Why not?

Because God chose them. The scriptures are clear that God chooses based on his seemingly arbitrary (not really) choice. For instance, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” Was that based on what they did, or foreknowledge of what they did?

God didn’t know from all time they would ultimately believe; he CHOSE them from all time to believe. If God knows I’ll have two daughters can I “freely choose” based on “free will” to not have any kids? Obviously not. Looking back on my life, all the times I thought I was making choices and exercising free will, I see that it was really God working in my life to do his will.

Thomas Aquinas says: “Predestination is the foreknowledge and preparation of the benefits of God, by which whosoever are freed will most certainly be freed.”

How ironic. You quote a passage from Aquinas that clearly supports what I am claiming.

There are plenty of times people don’t want to live somewhere but they do nonetheless. If God really wanted them somewhere, and the person tries to leave, God can cause something to happen that prevents him from leaving. This is not coercion of will but coercion of the body. (this is one example to disprove your point … I guess I could think up more creative ones too)

That’s hilarious. This is more of the same philosophical mumbo jumbo that Catholics have mixed in with Christianity over the centuries. And it does nothing to disprove my point.

God coereced Pharaoh’s will (in hardening his heart), as well as David’s (in taking a census). Other examples abound, but it only really takes one to disprove your point that God coerces the body but not the will.

I’m not quite sure why this a refutation of free will at all. Could you explain it more clearly?

I’m having a hard time believing that you’re serious. It cannot be more plainly stated. Paul completely refutes free will in this passage. You’re a pot. God made you for either a noble or ignoble purpose. And you have no right to complain about the fact. Confusing? Yes. Paradoxical? Yes. An argument for free will? No.

I might be crazy, but the 2 Thess 2:12-13 that I looked up read:

“But we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, beloved of God, for that God hath chosen you firstfruits unto salvation, in sanctification of the spirit and faith of the truth: Whereunto also he hath called you by our gospel, unto the purchasing of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Actually, you quoted verse 13, not 12 and 13. Ironically, it still supports my point as the choice was God’s (not the Thessalonians).

I quoted verses 11-12, and accidentally mislabeled it. That was a simple mistake on my part. Hopefully it was the same on yours and you’re not being purposely difficult.

Please go into detail what you mean to point out with the Pharaoh and David.

Who hardened Pharaoh’s heart? Who prompted David to take a census?

 

[gardenswithkids]

…Who hardened Pharaoh’s heart? …

The Bible says God hardened Pharaoh’s heart. Pharaoh’s actions prior to that seemed to indicate Pharaoh didn’t want a soft heart.

Free will doesn’t mean we can do anything we want. I cannot freely fly by flapping my arms simply because I will it. Free will (as I understand it) relates to accepting or rejecting God.

That Pharaoh repeatedly rejected God, and God gave the Pharaoh have the hard heart that Pharaoh seemed to want.

 

[ckempston]

The Bible says God hardened Pharaoh’s heart. Pharaoh’s actions prior to that seemed to indicate Pharaoh didn’t want a soft heart.

Free will doesn’t mean we can do anything we want. I cannot freely fly by flapping my arms simply because I will it. Free will (as I understand it) relates to accepting or rejecting God.

That Pharaoh repeatedly rejected God, and God gave the Pharaoh have the hard heart that Pharaoh seemed to want.

Do we freely accept or reject God, or are we chosen and dragged? The scriptures support the latter.

How do you know Pharaoh’s heart? Why would you make up this explanation rather than just believe the Scriptures, which are as plain as day? The first thing we hear about hardening Pharaoh’s heart is in Exodus 4:21 before Moses even asks to let the people go. You are simply reading your preconceived notions (which have little to no Biblical support) into this passage.

The LORD said to Moses, “When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.”

This is very simple cause and effect. No amount of mental gymnastics can overcome the fact that God “coerced” Pharaoh’s will.

 

[gardenswithkids]

…How do you know Pharaoh’s heart? Why would you make up this explanation rather than just believe the Scriptures, which are as plain as day? The first thing we hear about hardening Pharaoh’s heart is in Exodus 4:21 before Moses even asks to let the people go. You are simply reading your preconceived notions (which have little to no Biblical support) into this passage.
The LORD said to Moses, “When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.”

This is very simple cause and effect. No amount of mental gymnastics can overcome the fact that God “coerced” Pharaoh’s will.

Make up the explanation instead of believing scripture? More like trying to explain my understanding of the scripture. Before Scripture says God hardened Pharaoh’s heart, Exodus tells us that the Israelites were slaves in Egypt. Ex 2 :23 “…*Still the Israelites groaned and cried out because of their slavery… *” Between the slavery and the execution of little boy baby Israelites by the previous Pharaoh, it doesn’t sound to me like Scripture telling of soft hearted kings ruling Egypt before God hardened this Pharaoh’s heart.

Do we freely accept or reject God, or are we chosen and dragged? The scriptures support the latter…

Chosen and dragged, LOL. I won’t debate you that it sometimes feels that way—and scripture certainly supports the notion that we are chosen. But why are we being chosen and dragged? Who is dragging us? Is it God alone, or is it possible that someone else prayed to God for our conversion?

Catholics believe in infant baptism. I requested the gift of faith for my children at their baptism. I brought them to church before they could walk. In the case of an obstinant teenager, for the last few months I’ve sadly sometimes had to drag him out of bed to go to church with us on Sundays. I’d drag him to heaven with me if I could, but I don’t think I can do that–at least not alone. I believe God gives each person free will to accept or reject God. But back to being chosen–scripture often talks of God’s chosen people as part of a family. I pray for my children as I know my parents prayed for me. I believe God answers prayers, (lot’s of scripture to support that–see Ex 2: 24.)

God could have softened Pharaoh’s heart in answer to the Israelite’s prayer. But I believe He worked with the Pharaoh’s free will–and the king that wanted them as slaves wasn’t going to let them go easily. God doesn’t want us to come to Him kicking and screaming as slaves. He made us sons and daughters by adoption. “Romans 8: 14-15 "For those who are led by the spirit of God are chldren of God. For you did not receive a spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you received a spirit of adoption, through which we cry "Abba Father!”

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Do we freely accept or reject God, or are we chosen and dragged? The scriptures support the latter.

How could Peter forsake Christ, then?

Jesus, many times, said or implied that He desired things to happen that did not happen. In every case I can find except one (the death of Lazarus), the obstacle between Him and His will was human choices. If nothing stands between God and His desires, then sin is truly an evil inflicted by God upon man.

 

[donsnow]

How could Peter forsake Christ, then?

Jesus, many times, said or implied that He desired things to happen that did not happen. In every case I can find except one (the death of Lazarus), the obstacle between Him and His will was human choices. If nothing stands between God and His desires, then sin is truly an evil inflicted by God upon man.

Hi, Prodigal_Son -

Well, sin entered when Adam and Eve succumbed to Satan’s temptation. That’s where sin comes from. And, God warned but reassured Cain, when He said, (NAB) Gen 4, 7 “If you do well, you can hold up your head; but if not, sin is a demon lurking at the door; his urge is toward you, [emphasis mine] yet you can be his master.”

Don’t blame God. We have the freedom to choose to turn away temptation. Or, the freedom to choose to accept temptation; unless we’ve given away our freedom of choice.

Don

 

[donsnow]

Don, you obviously missed my other post, in which I referred to several passages supporting my assertion. Feel free to respond in kind. So far, no Catholic has responded with a single Scripture. Interesting, eh?

Hi, ckempston -

OK, I’ve read your previous post. I say, that at the beginning, God gave mankind freewill, which concept I call ‘freedom of choice’. Adam and Eve threw away their free choice, when they let Satan deceive them. God warned Cain.

See my post # 17 on page two of this thread.

Don

 

[buffalo]

If you were not created you could not have free will. So, in order to have it you must be created.

 

[ckempston]

If you were not created you could not have free will. So, in order to have it you must be created.

God is not created, therefore he does not have free will. Eh? That’s your reasoning?