Did God kill Himself at the crucifixion?

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justinthemartyr

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Although the Authorities at the time physically killed Jesus through the crucifixion, it was God Hismelf that allowed it. Yet this event HAD to occur, so was it God Himself that did it to Himself in order that the world could have salvation offered?
 
justinthemartyr said:
Although the Authorities at the time physically killed Jesus through the crucifixion, it was God Hismelf that allowed it. Yet this event HAD to occur, so was it God Himself that did it to Himself in order that the world could have salvation offered?
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No.

God didn’t kill himself. God, the Second Person of the Trinity was killed by the created beings. The Word of God, who created all things were killed by us. This was permitted by God’s will (God, the Father), but it wasn’t God killing himself.

It’s creatures killing the Creator.
 
Once, when my daughter was much younger, she liked playing with the cat even when the cat made it clear it did not want to play. I had told her many times that if she persisted in annoying the cat it would claw ot bite her, but she didn’t pay any attention to my warnings. One day I saw her annoying the cat again and said nothing. The cat gave her a nip on the hand and ran away.

I allowed this to happen. One might even say this event HAD to occur, as she would not learn not to annoy the cat in any other way, and she did learn from this event. She also learned not to annoy other larger animals that might bite or scratch with worse consequences.

Now, did I make the cat bite my daughter, or bite my daughter myself, in any sense?
 
The fact of your daughter being bitten by your cat was a probability, not an event that had to occur or was going to occur.

Jesus being killed was an event that was predestined and had to occur and was part of the plan that God gave us for salvation. Your analogy is close to this type of event, but not the same.

God made the act of Jesus’s death so. He designed it for His fallen creation.
 
justinthemartyr said:
The fact of your daughter being bitten by your cat was a probability, not an event that had to occur or was going to occur.

Jesus being killed was an event that was predestined and had to occur and was part of the plan that God gave us for salvation. Your analogy is close to this type of event, but not the same.

God made the act of Jesus’s death so. He designed it for His fallen creation.
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True, all analogies limp, some worse than others. You are correct that before the event occurred it was not certain that the event would have happened as it did. A flock of pink flamingos might have flown through the room at that point, distracting my daughter’s attention from the cat. But that’s not the point.

The point is, it did happen as I permitted, as I did nothing to prevent either my daughter or the cat from acting. Does this mean I caused it? If not, why can not God, who is certainly more powerful than me, not permit events to occur for which others’ free actions are the direct cause?
 
Say a martyr allows himself to be killed when he could save himself by renouncing God and the faith. He is not killing himself. He knows he will die is he acts so, but he allows it to happen because he is doing what is right. Jesus too allowed himself to be killed when he could have saved himself by not carrying out the mission his Father gave him of saving the human race. But he allowed it to happen because it was right. He no more commited suicide that the martyr did. In neither case do they will to die, but rather they will to do what is right.
 
I disagree with the assertion that the death of Jesus “had to happen.” I’m open to authoritative correction, but it seems to me that salvation is just as much an act of God’s will as creation. God was not required to create man; neither was God required to save man (or save man by any particular means).

JSA
 
There were many human players that lead to Jesus death on the cross. It is also true that this death was the cup he had asked the Father to take away. Yet Jesus submitted to the Father’s will in going to the cross. He also said, referring to his life that “No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.” John 10:18. So this was also the Father’s will.

God did not kill himself at the crucifixion. Rather, Jesus, who was God and man, laid down his life for us. Then by his resurrection, he took it up again for us. If we share in his suffering, we will also share his resurrection!
 
To believe that God (the Father) died on the cross, is to believe in Patripassionism…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius:cool:
 
Alexius said:
To believe that God (the Father) died on the cross, is to believe in Patripassionism…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius:cool:
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Code:
Could the Father have received the crucifixion marks even if he did not die? Did not the Father feel his Son’s pain? There are murmurs of this going around…especially those who read the Shack…
 
justinthemartyr said:
Although the Authorities at the time physically killed Jesus through the crucifixion, it was God Hismelf that allowed it. Yet this event HAD to occur, so was it God Himself that did it to Himself in order that the world could have salvation offered?
Click to expand...

Does an author die when he dies in a story in which he has made himself a character ?​

 
Shoshana said:
Could the Father have received the crucifixion marks even if he did not die? Did not the Father feel his Son’s pain? There are murmurs of this going around…especially those who read the Shack…
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The Father is pure eternal spirit, he has no body on which to receive marks of any kind. He also is impassible, he cannot suffer. Even the Son could not suffer before he took on a human nature. He suffers as a divine person with a divine nature and a human nature joined in hypostatic union.

In that sense when God the Son suffers in Jesus Christ, we can say that God suffers and dies; that he was born (and therefore Mary is the Mother of God) and was raised from the dead.But he Father and the Holy Spirit do not suffer and cannot die.

Those who get their theology from books like “The Shack” are going to find themselves very confused very quickly. :doh2:
 
lakeview said:
The Father is pure eternal spirit, he has no body on which to receive marks of any kind. He also is impassible, he cannot suffer. Even the Son could not suffer before he took on a human nature. He suffers as a divine person with a divine nature and a human nature joined in hypostatic union.

In that sense when God the Son suffers in Jesus Christ, we can say that God suffers and dies; that he was born (and therefore Mary is the Mother of God) and was raised from the dead.But he Father and the Holy Spirit do not suffer and cannot die.

Those who get their theology from books like “The Shack” are going to find themselves very confused very quickly. :doh2:
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Are you saying that God has no compassion for his people? Of course He must have felt sorrow when Jesus died. Why do we pray the **Our Father **as Jesus taught us to pray if God has no compassion? Why did God help the Israelites? What sort of God are you imagining?

Compassion is a profound emotion prompted by the pain of others. More vigorous than empathy, the feeling commonly gives rise to an active desire to alleviate another’s suffering.

In a sense, God did die with his son on the cross. Like any parent when they see their children suffer or die, they die a thousand little deaths themselves.
 
CHRISTINE77 said:
Are you saying that God has no compassion for his people? Of course He must have felt sorrow when Jesus died. Why do we pray the **Our Father **as Jesus taught us to pray if God has no compassion? Why did God help the Israelites? What sort of God are you imagining?

Compassion is a profound emotion prompted by the pain of others. More vigorous than empathy, the feeling commonly gives rise to an active desire to alleviate another’s suffering.

In a sense, God did die with his son on the cross. Like any parent when they see their children suffer or die, they die a thousand little deaths themselves.
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Code:
God the Father did not die. This is a heresy called patripassianism…this has been stated in the above posts. Here is an answer from a very holy priest that I know, more to our language;

Hi xxx! This is easy to answer: since God the Father has no hands or feet, he has nothing to be pierced!
The fact that God cannot suffer, as God, is derived from the fact that he cannot change because he IS the fullness of every perfection. But if love is the perfection of every perfection, including being itself, then not only is God love, as St. John has written, but also he is INFINITELY present to the suffering of each person and INFINITELY in a communion of compassion and caring with each sufferer.
We might say that God is “absolutely, totally involved” with our suffering and of course the suffering of his Son.
What a good question! Thanks for your prayers, and be sure of mine, with love in Our Lord, Fr. xxx

Dear xxx–In Orthodox churches icons of the Father are forbidden, and now you know why! Images of the Father in the Catholic Church are not really encouraged, but we do not have iconographic canons as the Orthodox do; too bad.
So I would discourage icons of the Father and discourage even more representing him as having wounds as Jesus does.
I don’t know The Shack, but it sounds as if you might have a challenging job. Love and prayers, Fr. xxx
 
justinthemartyr said:
Although the Authorities at the time physically killed Jesus through the crucifixion, it was God Hismelf that allowed it. Yet this event HAD to occur, so was it God Himself that did it to Himself in order that the world could have salvation offered?
Click to expand...
It was man’s sins that killed Him, though He freely gave up his life for our salvation.
 
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