Did God Make A Mistake?

[ricmat]

Well, keep in mind that I’m an attorney. Meaning that I tend to take an annoying view of things. Any human can break a covenant. “I agree to pay you $20 and you agree to fix my fence.” That’s a covenant. Either side can break it easily. However, if you don’t fix my fence, I can still honor the covenant and pay you the $20.00. Or I can not pay you the $20.00 and argue that you breached the agreement. I suppose God chooses to honor the covenant despite the ocassional breach by us.

I thought that a covenant involved a gift of “persons” (and a holy oath) whereas a contract was merely an exchange of goods, and a secular promise.

 

[NotWorthy]

I thought that a covenant involved a gift of “persons” (and a holy oath) whereas a contract was merely an exchange of goods, and a secular promise.

Sounds like you and I have heard more than one talk by Scott Hahn’s, eh?

 

[Valke2]

I thought that a covenant involved a gift of “persons” (and a holy oath) whereas a contract was merely an exchange of goods, and a secular promise.

I’ve heard this before here but I don’t know where that belief comes from. If you were to study contract law, the term covenant would come up. The only difference between it and a contract is that a contract can contain several covenants (binding promises).

It sounds as if perhaps the Church is giving it an additional meaning.

 

[Keikiolu]

I’ve heard this before here but I don’t know where that belief comes from. If you were to study contract law, the term covenant would come up. The only difference between it and a contract is that a contract can contain several covenants (binding promises).

It sounds as if perhaps the Church is giving it an additional meaning.

A covenant is not revocable by either party, thus it is never ending (can’t be dissolved). Other than by the utter disappearance of one of the parties.

A contract can have a provision for how it can “end”, be “dissolved”.

God likes to work with covenants, because He knows HE’S not going anywhere, and He usually makes sure that those He’s covenanting (sic?) with is a whole “people”, whom He will then never let “die off”.

Apparently, covenants CAN be “added to”, I think, which, I think (!!?), explains how there’s an OLD and a NEW covenant.

PLEASE correct me if I’m wrong about that last bit.

…or any of it, actually. Thanks!

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[ricmat]

I’ve heard this before here but I don’t know where that belief comes from. If you were to study contract law, the term covenant would come up. The only difference between it and a contract is that a contract can contain several covenants (binding promises).

It sounds as if perhaps the Church is giving it an additional meaning.

My understanding is that this meaning is taken from the actual description of covenants in the Old Testament. All involved an exchange of persons, holy oaths, etc.

The modern usage is apparently different, as you noted.

 

[NotWorthy]

My understanding is that this meaning is taken from the actual description of covenants in the Old Testament. All involved an exchange of persons, holy oaths, etc.

The modern usage is apparently different, as you noted.

To swear an oath was to “Shevat oneself” (if I spelled that right), or literally to “seven oneself”. An example of this is Abraham and Abimelech when they were having issues over the usage of a well. You’ll notice that Abraham brought Abimelech 7 goats, 7 sheeps, etc. I think the well was re-name “Baer Sheva” for “Well of the oath”.

 

[Valke2]

My understanding is that this meaning is taken from the actual description of covenants in the Old Testament. All involved an exchange of persons, holy oaths, etc.

The modern usage is apparently different, as you noted.

Perhaps that is how agreements were made in biblical times. When we read about Abraham purchasing the grave for Sarah, we are reading a formalized, public agreement in which the parties are binding themselves. There is an element of public disclosure so that the community witnesses and validates the agreement.

This is the role that circumcision plays with our covenant with God.

But, from a legal standpoint today, a covenant is equal to a contract (more or less). Contracts contain (sometimes) what are called restricitve covenants, for example “I sell you this land but you cannot sell liquor on it” would be a restrictive covenant.

 

[Keikiolu]

Perhaps that is how agreements were made in biblical times. When we read about Abraham purchasing the grave for Sarah, we are reading a formalized, public agreement in which the parties are binding themselves. There is an element of public disclosure so that the community witnesses and validates the agreement.

This is the role that circumcision plays with our covenant with God.

But, from a legal standpoint today, a covenant is equal to a contract (more or less). Contracts contain (sometimes) what are called restricitve covenants, for example “I sell you this land but you cannot sell liquor on it” would be a restrictive covenant.

“This is the role that circumcision plays with our covenant with God.”

Well,… that that would make it an irrevocable kind of thing, yes no?

 

[Sixtus]

Protestant 101 said:

“Truth is often the opposite of the allegation…”

 

[NotWorthy]

Perhaps that is how agreements were made in biblical times. When we read about Abraham purchasing the grave for Sarah, we are reading a formalized, public agreement in which the parties are binding themselves. There is an element of public disclosure so that the community witnesses and validates the agreement.

Silly me thought this was the reason for the whole discussion - the OT meaning of Covenants!!!

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi
It might be a little off the topic, but I somehow think it is related with the wording of the topic,so please don’t mind.
In my opinion ChristianGod (i.e Jesus) did make mistakes though ( being one of the ProphetsMessengers) he never sinned. Mistake is as we say to err is human, as against it sin is willful rebellion against the commandments of GodAllahYHWH.
This is what I understand from the scriptures.
I respect your faith.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics

 

[Grace_Angel]

I’ve heard this before here but I don’t know where that belief comes from. If you were to study contract law, the term covenant would come up. The only difference between it and a contract is that a contract can contain several covenants (binding promises).

It sounds as if perhaps the Church is giving it an additional meaning.

Whilst our society uses the terms “covenant” and contract interchangeably, the differences between them are profound. With a contract what is exchanged are “things” and “money,” whereas with a covenant what is exchanged is “self”. Contracts exchange the material. Covenants exchange the essence of the human being.

D.J. McCarthy, “defines covenant as means by which the ancient world took to extend relationships beyond the natural unity of blood”. If we are related by blood we are family, however, to extend this then is done via means of a covenant. Covenant then becomes like family bonds. Indeed covenant is a type of familial bond based on an oath. The Hebrew word for covenant berit means to “bind” or to “fetter” and in its etymology the word means to bind together by blood or by covenant relationship. There is sacredness to a relationship, which is related by blood or covenant, ultimately because these relationships cannot be broken. The links which bind those in a family binds them for all eternity. Each family member cannot be in isolation and because each family member is linked eternally, it is my contention that all family members will be called to redemption, even if only one member is called to lead the others towards the path of holiness. That single holy link within the chain binds, and has the capacity to lead all the others. Jesus is the Holy Link in the earthly chain and He leads the rest towards the path of holiness.
Through the covenants and under this symbol God “binds” or ties Himself to the human family. The relationship is sacred because it is based on God’s love for His family (Ps 100, 145, 150, 1Jn 4:7). We can understand the covenants and the importance of them by looking at the progression of the covenant structures and how they “grew” from a “marriage covenant” (Adam and Eve), Family covenant (Noah) a tribal covenant (Abraham), national covenant (Moses), kingdom covenant (David), and the universal covenant, incorporating elements of the past covenants, with Jesus His Son. Over time God instituted covenants and designed them so as to incorporate larger and larger dimensions of humanity until finally the definitive, all encompassing, covenant is made. The new family was begun by the new Adam (Jesus), however, this family did not dispose or forget the old Adam and his family, but incorporated the old Adam into the new. The Old Testament must be seen as the process by which God slowly, and little by little, reclaims His children. Through the covenants God established the means by which imperceptibly, He expands and extends His fatherhood until the time when His unique and ultimate fatherhood in Jesus is fulfilled and sealed through the new covenant.
Covenant love (hesed) always includes trust, mercy, compassion, and self-giving love. Covenant love is always faithful and never forsakes the other just as Yahweh never forsook His “bride” even when His bride was unfaithful to Him
A secular understanding of the term “covenant” suggests that it is an agreement, or contract with certain stipulations, which must be met by the covenant parties. Indeed covenant, under this belief is no more than a legally binding contract. The reduction of the term “covenant” to such an understanding can and does cheat humanity of an understanding of “covenant” as something more than a contract. Indeed something so lofty that only God could have devised such a relationship.

The above is a very brief summary of a large paper I wrote for MA Theol on marriage covenant. I thought you might like to read it remembering that it is just a brief summary. God BlessGrace Angel.