Did God Pull a Fast One on the Jews?

[Kaninchen]

My occamic nature tends to a much more prosaic explanation than the religious of what happened.

From Central Europe and the British Isles to North Africa and the Middle East, there was one certain fact in that era – if you messed with the Romans, you got slaughtered. On the whole, we came out of it better than the Carthaginians.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

To turn the discussion back to religion, while I don’t agree with the claim that the destruction of the Temple was punishment (either for not following Jesus or for following him), it does seem more reasonable than not that the impending war, which of course God could forsee, dictated the timing of Jesus entry into history.

 

[Kaninchen]

It’s why I said “in that era” - people tend to forget just how long the Rome as a power and as an Empire lasted.

 

[Kaninchen]

To turn the discussion back to religion, while I don’t agree with the claim that the destruction of the Temple was punishment (either for not following Jesus or for following him), it does seem more reasonable than not that the impending war, which of course God could forsee, dictated the timing of Jesus entry into history.

More reasonable to whom?

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

More reasonable to whom?

To someone expecting the Messiah to arise from the Jewish nation which fell on its sword shortly after Jesus.

 

[Kaninchen]

To someone expecting the Messiah to arise from the Jewish nation which fell on its sword shortly after Jesus.

As I said, we came out of it better than the Carthaginians.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

As I said, we came out of it better than the Carthaginians.

True enough, though that’s a pretty low standard survivalwise. The destruction of Jerusalem and Carthage after the second wars respectively is a pretty close parallel. Judea ceased to exist at that time, henceforward the land was to be known as Palestine (in reference to the Greek name for the area based on the Philistines). Jews survived in the diaspora but Rome was no longer tolerant of Jews; antisemitism was born.

On the other hand, the difference is noteworthy. Judaism has survived in a new, evolved form with a greater focus on human relations.

 

[abucs]

I also would wish to clarify my own thoughts - that the temple being destroyed was not a punishment for the Sanhedrin’s condemning of Jesus but rather a sign that the Old Testament Law based around the Temple was over.

If we all agree that God is there, and is the God revealed to the Jews and that the temple was the focus of the ancient Jewish connection with God then we have to ask why God has left it in ruins for 2000 years.

I too would say that at the very least it is ‘interesting’ that the temple was the main connection with God, the forgiveness of sins and the peoples sacrifice and that all this stopped just after Jesus claimed he was now all those things.

I also find it ‘interesting’ that records of divergant Jews after the expulsions, claim that sins were not being forgiven in the temple starting right after Jesus was crucified for 40 years until its destruction. And that subsequant rulers for centuries banned the Jews from entering the Jewish spiritual capital - Jerusalem - first the pagan Romans and then eventually the Christian Romans. (It seems that Christ on the cross had conquered the Romans where the Jewish revolts had not, but then that is another ‘interesting’ side story).

I also find it ‘interesting’ that the Jews have been brought back to Israel (pretty close to saying it’s a miracle after the holocaust) and after the 1948 and subsequant wars the temple is the dividing line in Jerusalem from Jewish and Islamic populations and it would be World War 3 if the Jews decide to put up a bit of concrete calling it a Jewish temple on the site of the old temple.

I find it also ‘interesting’ that Israels survival is virtually dependant on the friendship of the worldwide array of Christians that have developed and spread over the last 2000 years and have shaped the entire planet.

But then there are so many ‘interesting’ inter-dependancies between Christianity and Judaism. If God does not want us to follow Christianity, he is doing a very good job of making it look otherwise.

In my opinion.

 

[inJESUS]

This is a very interesting thread and i agree that i find most of these things interesting as well.

 

[Valke2]

I also would wish to clarify my own thoughts - that the temple being destroyed was not a punishment for the Sanhedrin’s condemning of Jesus but rather a sign that the Old Testament Law based around the Temple was over.

If we all agree that God is there, and is the God revealed to the Jews and that the temple was the focus of the ancient Jewish connection with God then we have to ask why God has left it in ruins for 2000 years.

Perhaps because as judaism matured the need for animal sacrifices decreased. much like the laws regarding slavery in the Torah were for a people who had not yet evolved to the point where they would abandon the entire concept.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Perhaps because as judaism matured the need for animal sacrifices decreased. much like the laws regarding slavery in the Torah were for a people who had not yet evolved to the point where they would abandon the entire concept.

There is a very important difference, though, between the Torah laws on slavery and the Torah laws on animal sacrifices. The Torah does not command Jews to have slaves. It does command Jews to perform animal sacrifices.

Now I think we are all agreed that animal sacrifices are anacrhonistic. The problem for Judaism is that there is nothing in the Torah which suggests when the command might expire, which is precisely the criticism leveled against Christians.

For that matter, is it not also possible that the dietary laws are similarly anacrhonistic? What is the basis for modern Jews to avoid cheeseburgers?

 

[Valke2]

There is a very important difference, though, between the Torah laws on slavery and the Torah laws on animal sacrifices. The Torah does not command Jews to have slaves. It does command Jews to perform animal sacrifices.

Now I think we are all agreed that animal sacrifices are anacrhonistic. The problem for Judaism is that there is nothing in the Torah which suggests when the command might expire, which is precisely the criticism leveled against Christians.

For that matter, is it not also possible that the dietary laws are similarly anacrhonistic? What is the basis for modern Jews to avoid cheeseburgers?

The Torah says sacrifices are to be done at the Temple. No Temple, no sacrifices. There really isn’t a problem here. Today we study the laws of sacrifice as opposed to doing them. This is one way Judaism dealt with this issue.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

The Torah says sacrifices are to be done at the Temple. No Temple, no sacrifices. There really isn’t a problem here. Today we study the laws of sacrifice as opposed to doing them. This is one way Judaism dealt with this issue.

I understand this is the Rabbinical “reasoning” but I’m just pointing out that it is deeply flawed. Sour grapes, really.

First of all, the Torah does not command that animal sacrifices be done at the Jerusalem Temple on the Temple mount. In fact, long before the Temple was constructed, required animal sacrifices were conducted at the tabernacle. You will not find the word “temple” in the Torah.

Would you study the law, “love your neighbor” as a substitute for practicing it?