Did God really set up Adam and Eve for failure?

[hope]

I have looked but cannot find a list of rules. Can you point me to them?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

https://forums.catholic-questions.org/faq

 

[hope]

thanks thanks

 

[Mmarco]

Why was that request from your deity worth obeying in the first place?
Should all commands from your deity to be followed, regardless of agreement or understanding?

We must have the humility to accept that our nature of finite created beings is inferior to the divine nature of the eternal Creator.
Think for example to a little child, whose parents tell him: “do not cross the street by yourself!”
The child may not yet have the maturity to understand the reason for this prohibition, but he will understand it when he grows up.
The child must obey his parents even if he do not understand, because he must trust his parents who love him and teach him for his sake.
The same is for God’s comandments; when we grow up “spiritually”, we understand better and better the meaning of God’s commandments; therefore, agreement and understanding comes afterwards.
Nevertheless, we must obey them even when we do not yet understand them, becuase we must trust God, who is our Creator, loves us infinitely and want us to reach eternal happiness.

The original sin consists in the lack of trust in God, in the proud desire to affirm our authority above everything and everyone, in the proud desire to feel “the god of ourselves”, so that we can esablish the moral rules and do whatever we want to.
I think that each of us must recognize himself in Adam, because we all rebelled against God, since we were kids, even if we were not aware of that. In fact, every time a child disoebeys his parents, he is unconsciously rebelling against God. Since the most tender age, children manfest forms of egoism and the desire to affirm their will against their parents’ will; I think these behaviors represent embrionic forms of the original sin.

The story of the fall is not only a figurative account of Adam’s sin, but it is also the figurative story of each of us; it tells us who we really are, it tells us that we are all proud rebels.
Therefore, Adam’s sin is also our sin.

 

[Chipper]

Back to the original question:
Here is my take on Did God set up Adam and Eve for failure?

Why do we look at this event as failure? Maybe it isn’t failure.
Take a good look at Genesis. Before Eve ate the fruit she “Saw” that is good for gaining “WISDOM”.
According the to the scriptures Wisdom Is the “Fear of God”. This is the answer right here.
How could they have “Fear of God”, when everything up till then was wonderfull i.e. no fear, no trials and no “Wisdom”. Obviously they didn’t fear God, for if they did, then they would not have eaten the fruit.
As a result of eating it they gained “Wisdom - Fear of God”. This was proven when they hid from God after eating the fruit. With A gain of Wisdom comes many trials. Else how would you “Fear God”.

So isn’t having Wisdom a good thing, and not a failure?

 

[Mmarco]

As a result of eating it they gained “Wisdom - Fear of God”. This was proven when they hid from God after eating the fruit. With A gain of Wisdom comes many trials. Else how would you “Fear God”.

So isn’t having Wisdom a good thing, and not a failure?

No, you are totally wrong. By no means the “fear of God” means being afraid of God, which is is the reason why what Adam and Eve hid from God; Adam and Eve were trying to move away from God, which is exactly to opposite of what God want us to do.
The fear of God means awe, reverence, adoration, awareness of God’s grandeur.

 

[Chipper]

There are plural senses/meanings attached to fear.

But he stands alone, and who can oppose him? He does whatever he pleases. He carries out his decree against me, and many such plans he still has in store. That is why I am terrified before him ; when I think of all this, I fear him. God has made my heart faint; the Almighty has terrified me (Job 23:13-16).

and…

"Should you not fear me? declares the Lord. “Should you not tremble in my presence”? (Jeremiah 5:22)

Also one more thing concerning my post.

Proverbs 1:7 “The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge;”

Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge and thus began their fear of the Lord (wisdom).

 

[Mmarco]

Also one more thing concerning my post.

Proverbs 1:7 “The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge;”

Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge and thus began their fear of the Lord (wisdom).

Again, you are totally wrong; the expression “fear of the Lord” in Proverb 1:7 does not mean “being afraid of the Lord”.

Adam ad Eve were afraid of God and tryed to move away from God, and this is the opposite of wisdom.

 

[Benadam]

When Adam “listened to the voice of His wife” the statement harkens to
This is my Son listen to Him" when Adam did that the order God established is turned upside down. Eve was supposed to listen to the voice of Adam. Who listened to God. Eve became the Mother of harlots by putting a god before God.
She became the prophetess of a different god and Adam her help meet when it was her voice that he listened to. Listening implies believing.

 

[Herb]

I think it wasn’ t a set up but He gave use free will. I think many of us may abused the FreeWill part, some of us can’t handle it.

Herb

 

[Mmarco]

Mmarco:

We must have the humility to accept that our nature of finite created beings is inferior to the divine nature of the eternal Creator.

My world view concludes that this is an immoral teaching that is prejudice towards the race of humanity. All our endeavors to build the just society are to fail and the only cure is to allow a dictator to take over all aspects of governance of our lives with 24/7 surveillance and can convict you for thought crime.

What? By no means my view implies the idea of a dictator.

Mmarco:

The child may not yet have the maturity to understand the reason for this prohibition, but he will understand it when he grows up.

Yes created sick and then commanded to be well under threat of eternal punishment. However, by your world view we can never “grow up” to reach the moral understanding your deity is holding his creation to.

Absolutely false; the more we grow up "spiritually, the more we understand the deep meaning of God’s moral and spiritual teachings.

Mmarco:

Nevertheless, we must obey them even when we do not yet understand them, because we must trust God, who is our Creator, loves us infinitely and want us to reach eternal happiness.

This is a fundamental difference in our world views of how to build the just society. Your world view demands that humanity give up on ever working towards bettering society in this existence and paves the way for a benevolent (arguable here) dictator to take over.

Again totally wrong. I firmly reject any kind of dictature; besides, in my example, parents are not dictators, but educators; children will understand the meaning of their parents’ teachings when they grow up.

Mmarco:

The original sin consists in the lack of trust in God, in the proud desire to affirm our authority above everything and everyone, in the proud desire to feel “the god of ourselves”, so that we can esablish the moral rules and do whatever we want to.

I don’t connect what a deity declares to be a “sin” to it being immoral because the immoral assessment is a personal assessment by each individual with the capacity of making moral judgements. The value of the moral good for humanity is my north star of judgement of the good or the bad. I can extrapolate this to all sentient creatures.

Your statement is inconsistent from the logical point; you need some moral criteria to establish what “the moral good for humanity” is, and you simply establish those criteria arbitrarily . This is exactly the essence of the original sin, i.e. the proud desire to be the “god of yourself” and establish by yourself what is good and what is evil.

 

[Benadam]

Divine Revelation exposes the imperfection of human wisdom

In the book of Genesis, specifically the symbols used to express it’s truth, are the symbols of the prevailing creation myth originated by the Egyptians.The Ouroroboros is the snake that swallows it’s tail. It is the pagan’s god who is ‘the beginning and the end’.It defines the nature of creation and time.as infinitely cyclic. History repeating it’self as the end of history is swallowed up in the beginning. That was the wisdom of the ages.Creation and time are cyclic.

The symbols in Genesis exposes the error of the pagan concept of creation. The cyclic construct is dismantled by the author of Genesis. The Ouroroboros is a deception that interprets time and creation as cyclic. In that construct of reality man is trapped in a never ending loop of repeated history because of the nature of time. But that is a deception.

The author of Genesis reveals that it isn’t time that’s cyclic but the behavior of fallen man. Sin causes history to be cyclic. Sin causes the end of an age to be marked by a repeat of the beginning.

The inspired author expressed this truth by anthropomorphizing the serpents tail which is a symbol of the end of the age.The age the author and audience lived in. He transforms the serpents tail into a foot that will break the cycle by crushing the head so as not to be swallowed up in a repeat of the beginning.

The Genesis myth expresses the deepest understanding about creation. It redefines the meaning of repeated history and deepens understanding of human nature and the condition of man. It’s the good news in that it tells of a savior who will crush the head of the serpent and break us free of Satan’s deception that held us captive in an endless loop of repeated history.

 

[Benadam]

Also this thinking makes it impossible to ever morally assess the actions and commandments of your dictator. There is literally nothing it could to that you would ever assess as barbaric or evil because the definition of good and bad is whatever the dictator declares to be good or bad. Imagine someone with that power that just killed your child and your child’s spirit is watching you now give excuses for why that murder’s actions were actually a good thing or “mysterious”.

Not true. God reveals His nature and plan so we know what is against His nature and we know what we will face in the future. So if the voice of God in my head is telling me to abandon my children to the streets and move to China I don’t assume that the good God wants me to do would include forcing my children to fend for themselves when I owe them a home and education. I assume it’s not God’s voice I’m listening to.

There is literally nothing it could to that you would ever assess as barbaric or evil because the definition of good and bad is whatever the dictator declares to be good or bad. Imagine someone with that power that just killed your child and your child’s spirit is watching you now give excuses for why that murder’s actions were actually a good thing or “mysterious”.

The God of the bible is a God of reason. He relates to rational creatures with reason. If there is good that He would do that we would not uderstand He will explain.We would not need excuses. Although the explanation would probably be heard as excuses to those who reject God. At the very least He would let us know it’s coming and prepare us for it.

I don’t connect what a deity declares to be a “sin” to it being immoral because the immoral assessment is a personal assessment by each individual with the capacity of making moral judgements.

The removal of objective good and the recognition of subjective good as the only good. That’s how human society descends into chaos.

 

[Mmarco]

Sorry but there’s just no way around the system of government of the supernatural realm you believe exists. You may believe that it’s a benign dictator, but its still a dictator.

I thought you were talking about a human dictator.
I believe that God is the supreme good and that God is the source of all true good and all true love. I trust God more than myself, therefore I certainly want Him to govern myself.
Besides, my mind recognizes as good what God teaches to be good and as evil what God teaches to be evil.

I am pointing out the immoral practice of creating someone sick and then commanding them to be well. Example: Like having a son and then commanding him to be a daughter for you to love him.

I totally disagree; I think that God has created us free. When we freely choose to sin, we harm ourselves; in fact sin is like a cancer that destroys our freedon and represents the destruction of ourselves; God wants to save us from our own sins, from our own egoism, our own evil passions.
So, it is not like having a son and then commanding him to be a daughter, but having a son who is destroying himself with drugs and helping him to understand that drugs is not the true life; sin is like a drug that destroys our true selves.

Yes but your deity isn’t acting as a parent. Its acting as a dictator.
A dictator rules over adults for the appeasement of its own psychological well being. A parent rules over children for the benefit of the children’s psychological well being.

And in fact, God teaches us what is good and what is evil so that we can live the only true life, the only true love, the only true happiness. God is like a Father who teaches us for our benefict. Your idea of God as a dictator is totally wrong.

Every individual that has the capacity to morally assess a situation sets that criteria for themselves. Just no way around that.

This is an arbitrary assumption of yours and I totally disagree. The truth is that no created being has the capacity to establish by himself what is good and what is evil. We need God’s teachings.

Mmarco:

you simply establish those criteria arbitrarily

No more than your arbitrarily deciding to follow the moral assessments of a deity.

The point is that I accept to be a finite created being and I accept that my Creator is infinitely superior to me. My choice is reasonable and humble. You choose to be the god of yourself and to establish by yourself what is good and what is evil, and this is absolutely the most proud and unreasonable act, which represents the essence of the original sin.
You rejects the evident truth about your own limits as a created finite being and the superiority of your Creator.

 

[Mmarco]

Mmarco:

God wants to save us from our own sins

Once you pick a reference point for your moral system, you can have moral absolutes. The problem is when cultures have a different reference point of the good. Why is a deity’s moral position to be considered the reference point of the good any more than anyone elses?

I think that a person who is really searching the true God, the source of all true good and all true love, certainly recognizes Him in the greatness of the teachings of the christian faith.

Mmarco:

God teaches us what is good and what is evil so that we can live the only true life,

So does every other moral person in your life too.

A person can teach what is good and what is evil only if he/she has been previously taught by God, directly or indirectly through other people previously taught by God.

God is the source of all correct teachings about good and evil.

Mmarco:

The truth is that no created being has the capacity to establish by himself what is good and what is evil

So if someone is breaking your arm, its neither moral or immoral to do unless your deity declares it so?

If that “someone” had always lived in a cannibal tribe, his breaking my arm could be the result of the lacking of moral education.
Anyway, God gives us moral teachings also through our conscience, but often people do not listen to these teachings.

This is how you can dehumanize people who don’t accept your deity because they don’t have moral value unless they accept your deity.

I have never said that unbelievers don’t have moral value; this is absurd.
The point is that people derive their moral values partially from their conscience and mostly from society and the education they have received. Christianity has deeply influenced our society; therefore, most unbelivers today share partially the christian moral values.

Mmarco:

You rejects the evident truth about your own limits as a created finite being and the superiority of your Creator.

I reject the moral superiority of your creator, regardless of its magical powers to destroy me.

I am sorry for you, because your absurd pride represents the essence of evil and sin.

Best Regards

 

[Carmel]

Atheists objection is that God set up Adam and Eve for failure and the most often comparison is that it is like leaving children in the room with knife or a gun, or anything similar.

Did God really set up Adam and Eve for failure?

Why did He do that if yes?

If not what exactly did He do?

Finally, how to defend against that objection?

God didn’t set them up for failure . He made them perfect with the ability to understand a situation and the intelligence to make the right moral choice.
He created humans, not robots. God encourages his creation to make good choices. He does not coerce. The one who coerces is Satan . Even Jesus, the perfect man was tested in another garden. He pleaded " If it be possible, take this chalice away" " nevertheless, not my will, but thine be done. " The Angels were also tested but because they are pure spirits their test was different from the test given to man.
Why did He do that ? - Because God is a moral God and if He had not given free will to angels and men then how could his creation worship Him and have fellowship with Him if they were mere robots ?

 

[o_mlly]

Finally, how to defend against that objection?

The play isn’t over yet. Let’s not judge the Author until we see how this drama ends.

 

[runningdude]

No. God gave them free will, and huge garden full of good fruit.

He told them NOT to eat from a single tree, while providing thousands of alternatives.

It no Herculean strength of will to avoid that one tree - it was a fruit tree. Yet they chose to believe a snake and ate from it anyways, and brought death into the world as a result.