Did God the Son appear on the Earth Before the Incarnation?

[jcrichton]

Well, not time travel as we think of it, of course. For Christ it’s just a matter of stepping into the timeline like walking through a door from one room into another. He doesn’t see time as a solid object the way we do but more as an avenue to visit humanity, as I see it. His Incarnation in time–now that’s the real miracle of time and space. Makes my poor head hurt trying to wrap my mind around it.

It works the other way too. The Eucharist we offer at every Mass is an eternal offering offered in time. We re-present the one sacrifice of Christ to God in eternity. So, Jesus appearing at any point in history would not be impossible. In that case, the only questions being did he and/or would he do that?

Hi, Della!

…St. Paul treads on this transcendence:

3 Blessed be God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with all the spiritual blessings of heaven in Christ. 4 Before the world was made, he chose us, chose us in Christ, to be holy and spotless, and to live through love in his presence, 5 determining that we should become his adopted sons, through Jesus Christ for his own kind purposes, 6 to make us praise the glory of his grace, his free gift to us in the Beloved, 7 in whom, through his blood, we gain our freedom, the forgiveness of our sins. Such is the richness of the grace 8 which he has showered on us in all wisdom and insight. 9 He has let us know the mystery of his, purpose, the hidden plan he so kindly made in Christ from the beginning 10 to act upon when the times had run their course to the end: that he would bring everything together under Christ, as head, everything in the heavens and everything on earth. 11 And it is in him that we were claimed as God’s own, chosen from the beginning, under the predetermined plan of the one who guides all things as he decides by his own will; 12 chosen to be, for his greater glory, the people who would put their hopes in Christ before he came.

(Ephesians 1:3-12)
Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Fiasco]

Hi!
…so how authoritative should we hold that tradition?

Of course we can’t be certain, but the ancient Israelites were smarter than some of us give them credit for. Anyway, i’m not going to laugh at that tradition.

Didn’t think to mention yesterday that the word “Semite” is derived from the name “Shem”, Shem being regarded as the Father of the Semitic race.

 

[jcrichton]

Of course we can’t be certain, but the ancient Israelites were smarter than some of us give them credit for. Anyway, i’m not going to laugh at that tradition.

Didn’t think to mention yesterday that the word “Semite” is derived from the name “Shem”, Shem being regarded as the Father of the Semitic race.

Hi!

…perhaps my attempt failed completely… I was attempting to convey that Judaic traditions would reflect Judaic thought (religious understanding) which, by default, must be made in absence of Christ… so such understanding as “Shem” is fully entrenched in Patriarchal (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob…) limitations–it cannot reflect/project Christian understanding.

…that said, it does not mean that we must fully ignore Judaism since it is our religious roots!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Darryl_B]

Having read some of the examples in this post, I am going to suggest reading Justin Martyr. AD100-165. My problem is I cannot remember which of his writings discuss this, but he does discuss the burning bush, the Lord with two angels appearing to Abraham etc.

(I will point out that he was a literal millennialist, but I will point out that that is one of those doctrines which took a while to understand as it was eschatological in nature, and Revelation had not been around long enough to grasp the prophetic meaning fully by that time.)

 

[Fiasco]

Hi!

…perhaps my attempt failed completely… I was attempting to convey that Judaic traditions would reflect Judaic thought (religious understanding) which, by default, must be made in absence of Christ…

Why should that increase doubts?

so such understanding as “Shem” is fully entrenched in Patriarchal (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob…) limitations–it cannot reflect/project Christian understanding.

Again, why should it increase problems?

Unless:
Do Christian writings throw more light on the mystery? Which it certainly is.

 

[Della]

Oh I get what you are saying 100%

Calling it time travel is just simpler for me, but I was totally envisioning what you said here.

The reason I never thought about it like that before is because I’ve heard/read people say it was God the Son in His Divinity only, not Jesus, that was featured in the Old Testimate, as Jesus (God the Son in BOTH in His Divinity and Humanity) wasn’t born yet.

But I’m more inclined to think that God the Son, in His Divinity only, was the one present at Creation when the Angels fell. Because if the Resurrected Jesus (fully human, fully Divine) was there, why would the Angels revolt. They would have trusted then.

So my theory is that God the Son, in His Divinity only, was there at Creation. But I’m open to a “time traveling” Resurected Jesus, in His Divinity & Humanity) appearing to humans.

Wow! Theology is fun.

As to the angels trusting if they could see the Incarnate Christ, maybe not so much–at least, as I recall, not according to one or more of the Early Church Fathers, who opined that the angels fell precisely because they saw God joined to human flesh at the moment of their creation (which is when they decided for obedience to God or against it), couldn’t accept it, and so rebelled. I’ll have to Google that idea and get back to you.

UPDATE: I could find some references to this concept, but no direct quotes. Maybe someone else can provide some for us–if they exist, that is.

 

[Nelka]

Genesis 3:9 And the Lord God called Adam, and said to him: Where art thou?

Ver. 9. Where. In what state have thy sins placed thee, that thou shouldst flee from thy God? (St. Ambrose, C. 14) Some think it was the Son of God who appeared on this occasion, St. Augustine; &c. or an Angel. (Calmet)

 

[jcrichton]

Why should that increase doubts?

Again, why should it increase problems?

Unless:
Do Christian writings throw more light on the mystery? Which it certainly is.

Hi!

…it seems that we will never meet (come to an understanding); a person who purports to be a fan of the red sox cannot support any other team winning the World Series (which is a misnomer in itself), unless he/she is not really a fan but some sort of pretender; hence, rabbinic tradition cannot even speculate on anything about Jesus since Jesus (and everything that relates to Him) must be rejected by Judaism.

…while Catholic/Christian formulation on rabbinic tradition, which excludes Jesus, may seem quite benign and ecumenical, it leaves room for improvement…

…what is innocently, purposefully or thoughtlessly missing is the factors that cannot be reconciled with a mere human actor/agent/candidate/party, as I have listed them in my previous post.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Fiasco]

IF we die in the state of Grace, we should find out, even if we have to wait until Doomsday. And if we don’t find out even then, we won’t care because we’ll have found the Beatific Vision more captivating anyway.

 

[jcrichton]

IF we die in the state of Grace, we should find out, even if we have to wait until Doomsday. And if we don’t find out even then, we won’t care because we’ll have found the Beatific Vision more captivating anyway.

Hi!

…this is a tangent on your “religion” moniker–care to elaborate?

Maran atha!

Angel