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J
japhy
Guest
I said nothing about “unsaved heretics”, but it is true that their “Eucharist” is not a sacrifice (the idea of which is repugnant to most Protestants) and is not the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ, despite whatever spiritual benefit is received from their remembrance/memorial of the Lord’s Supper.
You define “properly invoked, blessed … and received” differently from the Church, then. And does it matter if this “Eucharist” is bread and wine, or can it be saltines and grape juice?
What reason would they have to come into the Catholic Church?
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NotWorthy
Guest
You see, this is one of the reasons it’s so much fun discussing issued with non-Catholics. If I used the excuse, “so what if I pray to Mary, God knows what’s in my heart”, how far do you think that will fly.
BRB, I ask you to look up the words “Poien” (I think I spelled that right) and “anamnesis” and tell me if any other Christian Faiths believe that the Sacrificial element of Communion is still used in their church.
Like Japhy said, the idea of a “sacrifice” being offered is anathema to most Christians, if not all, else there would still be an altar in their church.
B
BRB
Guest
Fun … as in being instructive ? … as in leading them to the ‘fullness’ of joy ?
The Eucharist is powerful, essential medicine for body / spirit of Christians. I’m very sad that many Protestants don’t understand this sacrament as they should. Many have terrible moral illnesses … for lack of understanding.
However, if they only had better instruction … I think many would readily accept the purpose of the memorial. Most Christians have ‘blind spots’ in our understanding. Since you enjoy instructing on this topic … the Lord might use your gifts to open their eyes. A calling … to the Protestant brethren.
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BRB
Guest
None, unless Catholics can show them their error … so their joy might be more complete.
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NotWorthy
Guest
Fun as in “trying to herd cats”. Talking to three different people means having to deal against three different beliefs on the exact same subject.
Fro instance, one guy will say Baptism is water baptism is not necessary. The next guy will admit it’s necessary, but infants shouldn’t be. The next guy will say it’s symbolic, but sprinkling is heretical (how can something symbolic be heretical?). The next will condemn us for using the Trinitarian formula. Do you see my point?
Yeah, it’s very important to evangelize our brothers and sisters, without watering down the truth. That’s why I do so much enjoy these forums!
God Bless!!!
B
BRB
Guest
Some Catholics, as well as Protestants, believe this to have been a passover meal, served on the Passover Day? If so, fermented wine would not of been served,… by tradition of Jews.
Only unfermented fruit of vine … or the ‘juice of grapes’ was the standard.
In any case … if properly invoked, blessed … Christ comes to His sacrificial feast in the host [presented in faith].
B
BRB
Guest
Some Catholics, as well as Protestants, believe this to have been a passover meal, served on the Passover Day? If so, fermented wine would not of been served,… by tradition of Jews.
Only unfermented fruit of vine … or the ‘juice of grapes’ was the standard.
In any case … if properly invoked, blessed … Christ comes to His sacrificial feast in the host [presented in faith].
B
BRB
Guest
Unfermented wine … new wine. Christ is the New wine … would you not agree ?
Thusly, the first Eucharist (if held on the Passover Day … as you believe) … may well of been new, unfermented wine (the juice of grapes)
Also, as you probably know … many Baptists and other Protestants don’t drink alcohol. Kind of take the Nazarite vow … so to speak, based on Christ saying He would not drink of the vine until He comes again.
Certainly the early Christian’s took the Lord’s supper in the larger homes of the bishops/deacons … for many decades.
Church tradition teaches they brought a loaf of bread with them to the Eucharist … and the priest would bless it along with the main hosts. They then would take the holy bread home with them … and the family members would consume small portions of it on daily basis, until they met the next Sabbath.
So … there you go !! Yes … if you ever become ordained, and have a Church that you serve under authority of Magesterium / Pope … you might indeed be useful to the Lord in this capacity. Perhaps in some far away African village … with no plumbing, no organ, and maybe not even a roof over ones head.
Christ’s Church is whereever 2 or 3 are gathered in His name … with intentions of worship in spirit and truth.
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NotWorthy
Guest
“… in the larger homes of the validly ordained bishops/deacons…” is a better way of saying it.
The New wine was still wine. It was not grape juice, is my understanding of it. Wine is not wine until the fermenting has begun. With fermenting, you have alchohol.
Jesus did drink the wine, on the Cross, that he professed during the Last Supper.
So if I choose to worship the way I want to, and believe and profess in Christ, I am Christ’s Church?
B
BRB
Guest
He was offered vinegar water in sponge … held up to Him on a hysop branch. I know some claim this to be Wine … but, thats not what I read in scriptures.
If Pope told you to go to African outback … and start a church and hold Mass … technically you could. Whatever the Pope and the Ordained Body bind on earth … is valid per Christ’s teachings.
Naturally … the Pope wouldn’t do this in your case … since you are ‘not worthy’ of Priesthood. But, in another sense you could … since you do belong to the priesthood of believers … which also applies to the Protestant ministers who perform the Eucharist.
Do you realize the Pope could absolve Protestants of all past ignorance on issues / sins … and welcome us back into the Universal Church tomorrow ? Technically … he could do it … but, he would need to have direction of H.S. to do this. And even if he did have such direction … some of you Catholic laypersons would pitch a fit.
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BRB
Guest
Its acetic acid !!! No wonder he didn’t really drink much of it.
When wine ferments you get ETOH … ethanol ethyl alcohol].
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Ted_in_Charlott
Guest
I want to thank you for your candor. I probably would have also crucified my Lord.
J
japhy
Guest
No, because the Pope cannot teach error in matters of faith and morals, and it is an error of the faith to believe that anyone other than an ordained priest (or bishop) can consecrate the bread and wine into the Eucharist. The Pope can’t teach otherwise.
If you are “leaning catholic” as your profile says, I strongly suggest you learn what the Catholic Church actually teaches, rather than what you’d like it to teach.
J
japhy
Guest
“Vinegar is made from the oxidation of ethanol in wine, cider, beer, fermented fruit juice, or nearly any other liquid containing alcohol.”
“To prevent the growth of molds, bacteria and wild yeast, sulphur dioxide is used when making wine. That compound also inhibits oxidation of wines. The main yeast and bacteria which spoil wine are widely distributed in nature and are present in almost every wine making situation. The wine must be stored in a condition unfavourable for microbial growth. … The most common bacterium is Acetobacter which converts alcohol to acetic acid (vinegar). Oxygen encourages its growth, again highlighting the importance of excluding oxygen at all times during the wine making process.”
B
BRB
Guest
Vinegar [acetic acid] is a fermentation byproduct of any grain/fruit as you say above. It is not what we want to happen in the winemaking process. Spoiled wine will have some vinegar in it and tastes awful.
So, I guess we might say Christ’s crucifiers wouldn’t even offer Him a decent drink. They offered Him the spoiled, acid residual.
Very fitting of mankind. We usually give Christ [and our fellowman] our leftovers … in time, talents, goods, etc.
T
Ted_in_Charlott
Guest
Specifically dealling with the last words from the cross. If John and the Blessed Mother were the only ones at the cross, how could the other gospel writers give specific quotes?
Even though I have heard my whole life those were the only two there, I still think Peter was hiding there somewhere, I think he is the one that gave Mark the last words.
As for Saint Luke, I think he might have been there. He being the historian probably would not have missed it.
Saint Matthew is the only one I am not sure, but since he is the saint of my profession, I would tend to think he was probably there also. Being a tax collector takes a specific mindset that wants to “see and record”.
I know some people will say it was the Holy Spirit that inspired them to write the words, but just because they are not specifically recorded as having been there doesn’t mean they weren’t there, and that adds even more credibility as being eye witnesses.
Just my 3 cents worth.
Even though I have heard my whole life those were the only two there, I still think Peter was hiding there somewhere, I think he is the one that gave Mark the last words.
As for Saint Luke, I think he might have been there. He being the historian probably would not have missed it.
Saint Matthew is the only one I am not sure, but since he is the saint of my profession, I would tend to think he was probably there also. Being a tax collector takes a specific mindset that wants to “see and record”.
I know some people will say it was the Holy Spirit that inspired them to write the words, but just because they are not specifically recorded as having been there doesn’t mean they weren’t there, and that adds even more credibility as being eye witnesses.
Just my 3 cents worth.
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