Did God Turn Away from Jesus when Jesus was on the Cross?

[Faithx6]

What is the meaning of Jesus’ cry, “My God, My God, why have you forsaken me,” recorded in Mark 15:32? Did God turn away from Jesus when Jesus was on the cross as part of the punishment Jesus bore for our sins or did Jesus just feel that God abandoned him as part of the experience of being human in which we can feel alone and separated from God during our greatest trials, even though God actually is with us?

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

What is the meaning of Jesus’ cry, “My God, My God, why have you forsaken me,” recorded in Mark 15:32? Did God turn away from Jesus when Jesus was on the cross as part of the punishment Jesus bore for our sins or did Jesus just feel that God abandoned him as part of the experience of being human in which we can feel alone and separated from God during our greatest trials, even though God actually is with us?

That’s the beginning of Psalm 22. It starts out asking why God has abandoned him. But it ends with praise. His listeners would likely have known the complete Psalm. Here is the end:

For God has not spurned or disdained the misery of this poor wretch, Did not turn away from me, but heard me when I cried out.

I will offer praise in the great assembly; my vows I will fulfill before those who fear him.

The poor will eat their fill; those who seek the LORD will offer praise. May your hearts enjoy life forever!"

All the ends of the earth will worship and turn to the LORD; All the families of nations will bow low before you.

For kingship belongs to the LORD, the ruler over the nations.

All who sleep in the earth will bow low before God; All who have gone down into the dust will kneel in homage.

And I will live for the LORD; my descendants will serve you.

The generation to come will be told of the Lord, that they may proclaim to a people yet unborn the deliverance you have brought.

 

[Michael96]

Ah, there’s so much to be meditated on there. But I’ll restrict my answer to just one point which while certainly not an answer is worth thinking about.

These very words would have been familiar to all Jews as they are the opening words of Psalm 22.

Psalm 22 starts with that cry of anguish, and goes on to forsee the piercing of Christ’s hands and feet, but goes on to answer what ultimately happens. And I’ll pick out just one verse from later on which for me resonates:

*Verse 27: All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. *

I find it an interesting thought that the Jews hearing that would then think through Psalm 22 (as of course they knew their scripture by heart).

 

[Michael96]

Ah: SuscipeMeDomine was wrting exactly the same as I was replying. Obviously great minds think alike

 

[bilop]

What is the meaning of Jesus’ cry, “My God, My God, why have you forsaken me,” recorded in Mark 15:32? Did God turn away from Jesus when Jesus was on the cross as part of the punishment Jesus bore for our sins or did Jesus just feel that God abandoned him as part of the experience of being human in which we can feel alone and separated from God during our greatest trials, even though God actually is with us?

#2 and #3 are exactly right.

Jesus is God, He can’t turn away from Himself. He was preaching to the crowd by referring to the Psalm.

God Bless

 

[DRIVING_BEAR]

First off notice that Jesus said My God twice. Why? most protestants believe that Jesus was asking the the question to God the Father , and God the Holy Spirit. Also one of the punishments for sin is seperation from God ( the Trinity) so when Jesus made this statement this part of sin penalty was imposed on Jesus as a substitute

 

[NotWorthy]

First off notice that Jesus said My God twice. Why? most protestants believe that Jesus was asking the the question to God the Father , and God the Holy Spirit. Also one of the punishments for sin is seperation from God ( the Trinity) so when Jesus made this statement this part of sin penalty was imposed on Jesus as a substitute

This is impossible. God is One, so He can’t be separated. Period.

 

[Michael96]

This is impossible. God is One, so He can’t be separated. Period.

Yes, I think that’s important to always keep in our minds. The Trinity is one God; to separate it out would deny the one-ness of God.

I have heard an Anglican theologian say that while Christ could not be sepatared from the Father it is possible at this moment the Trinity was put under a certain strain but without being broken. That seems a compromise position, but I can’t really make much sense of it. I also heard a Catholic apologist say that Christ was crying out on behalf of mankind, and not crying out for himself. The latter seems possible but a little left-field.

 

[NotWorthy]

Yes, I think that’s important to always keep in our minds. The Trinity is one God; to separate it out would deny the one-ness of God.

I have heard an Anglican theologian say that while Christ could not be sepatared from the Father it is possible at this moment the Trinity was put under a certain strain but without being broken. That seems a compromise position, but I can’t really make much sense of it. I also heard a Catholic apologist say that Christ was crying out on behalf of mankind, and not crying out for himself. The latter seems possible but a little left-field.

Christ was teaching us even from the Cross.

He validated his teaching during the Sermon on the Mount on Forgiveness by His prayer, “Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do”.

He proved that all things are possible to those with Faith with His words to the good thief.

He instituted the union of the Church and the children of God by giving Mary (a symbol for the Church) into the care of John, the Beloved Disciple (a symbol for all beloved disciples of Christ), and vice-versa.

And He even found time to fulfill the Scriptures, with the drinking of the soured wine.

Christ knew full well what He was doing on the Cross!!!

Praise God! Alleluia!!!

 

[NotWorthy]

BTW, to validate that Christ knew that He was referencing Psalm 22, look at His last Words, “Father, into your hands I commit my Spirit”. These are words found in the middle of Psalm 31, another Psalm that describes Christ’s Passion and ends with praise of God!

 

[BRB]

This is impossible. God is One, so He can’t be separated. Period.

God can divide Himself [if He desires or has need to]. Are you suggesting that Jesus was praying to Himself, while on the cross ?

Clearly Jesus was praying to a separate Father … and was for a brief moment ‘forsaken’ by the Father … in ‘spiritual isolation’ upon the cross.

As another said earlier in this post, our sins were born by Jesus. Jesus felt the sins of the world upon Himself in that dieing moment … and their weight briefly isolated Him from the Father. Jesus experienced unbelieveable pain and isolation at that moment.

Yet, He was able to bear our sins burden successfully. He was victorious unto death … and yielded His spirit back to the unity of the Father. The Trinity was once again reassembled/complete in the Unity of One.

Water has 3 phases … solid ice, liquid water, and vapor. The phases can rapidly transform themselves back and forth. All phases are molecular H20 … just the chemical bonds between the molecules are rearranged to allow for phase changes. At STP … all three phases are present at the same time. Think of the Trinity in this way … it will allow us to understand the Three aspects of God, which can be separate or unified.

As a general rule, the Trinity can always be thought of as existing in the ONE supreme power.

 

[NotWorthy]

God can divide Himself [if He desires or has need to]. Are you suggesting that Jesus was praying to Himself, while on the cross ?

Clearly Jesus was praying to a separate Father … and was for a brief moment ‘forsaken’ by the Father … in ‘spiritual isolation’ upon the cross.

I was under the impression that this heresy had been dealt with about 1500 years ago.

We believe in One God. Period.

As another said earlier in this post, our sins were born by Jesus. Jesus felt the sins of the world upon Himself in that dieing moment … and their weight briefly isolated Him from the Father. Jesus experienced unbelieveable pain and isolation at that moment.

Yet, He was able to bear our sins burden successfully. He was victorious unto death … and yielded His spirit back to the unity of the Father. The Trinity was once again reassembled/complete in the Unity of One.

We Believe in One God. Period.

Water has 3 phases … solid ice, liquid water, and vapor. The phases can rapidly transform themselves back and forth. All phases are molecular H20 … just the chemical bonds between the molecules are rearranged to allow for phase changes. At STP … all three phases are present at the same time. Think of the Trinity in this way … it will allow us to understand the Three aspects of God, which can be separate or unified.

God is NOT H2O.

We Believe in One God. Period.

As a general rule, the Trinity can always be thought of as existing in the ONE supreme power.

Not as a general rule… but as a Rule of Faith!

We Believe in One God. Period.

 

[CreatioNova]

What is the meaning of Jesus’ cry, “My God, My God, why have you forsaken me,” recorded in Mark 15:32? ?

I’ve read this is a mistranslation of the original text Eli Eli Lama Sabachthani and the original doesnt say ‘‘forsaken’’, but rather My God My God, for this is my Destiny ???

Cant find the referrence right now though - thought I’d book marked it but I havent

 

[CreatioNova]

Here’s the bit I was looking for…

We must also remember that Jesus was a good Jew who kept the law of Moses. At that time, when a pious Jew was dying, he or she would often recite the 22nd Psalm, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?” Therefore, many people believe that is what Jesus said as he was dying on the cross.
According to the gospel of Mathew, including all the Greek gospels, Jesus cried out in his own native Aramaic tongue, “Eli, Eli, l’mana Sabachtani?” Notice that it is phrased as a question and the gospels kept it in the original Aramaic.
If these words are considered as a question, then it appears Jesus is doubting why he is suffering and questioning the Father. According to Dr. Errico, this phrase could also be considered a declaration by Jesus. He believes it was a cry of victory by Jesus who realized that God’s plan was being carried out exactly as intended.
Jesus may actually have said “El’, el’, l’mana shwaqthani,” meaning “O God, O God To what a purpose you have kept me!”
According to Dr. Lamsa, in the Lamsa Bible Translation, the verse is "At about the ninth hour, Jesus cried out with aloud voice and said, “Eli, Eli, l’mana Shabakthani,” meaning, “My God, My God, for this I was spared!” Dr. Lamsa actually footnoted the last part of this to indicate it means, “For this was my destiny!”

 

[NotWorthy]

CreatioNova, I think I found the article that you are referencing. There’s one paragraph in there that, to me, explains away a lot of what your author says:

The problem is that when the King James Bible was written the translator missed the intended meaning of one word in that verse and that changed the whole meaning of the verse. It is the Aramaic word, “sna”. It is a word with 5 meanings. Just as there are words in English with multiple meanings, there are words in Aramaic with multiple meanings.

My point is, weren’t there at least one or two translations before the KJV that the author could have referenced?

Also, it’s not the KJV that mis-translated the phrase. The inspired authors of the original text wrote the verse, first in Aramaic, then translated the phrase themselves into the Greek that the inspired text was written in (Yes, Matthew was first written in Aramaic, but the Greek translation is considered inspired).

 

[BRB]

I was under the impression that this heresy had been dealt with about 1500 years ago.

We believe in One God. Period.

We Believe in One God. Period.
God is NOT H2O.

We Believe in One God. Period.

Not as a general rule… but as a Rule of Faith!

We Believe in One God. Period.

One Supreme Power … with 3 natures. Perhaps you should explain your theology of the Trinity.

Water and its 3 phases is the common way the Catholic church uses in its teachings to explain the Trinity.

Perhaps you need to re-read the Gospels … to see what Jesus says in regards to his relationship to the Father and the Spirit.

 

[BRB]

This is impossible. God is One, so He can’t be separated. Period.

Quote from G.K. Chesterton. regarding Christ’s words on Cross:

“and for one annihilating instant an abyss that is not for our thoughts had opened even in the unity of the absolute; and God had been forsaken of God.”

Definition of forsaken Amer. Heritage Dictionary: To leave altogether; abandon …

When you are abandoned … you are separated from the entity.

 

[NotWorthy]

One Supreme Power … with 3 natures. Perhaps you should explain your theology of the Trinity.

Water and its 3 phases is the common way the Catholic church uses in its teachings to explain the Trinity.

Perhaps you need to re-read the Gospels … to see what Jesus says in regards to his relationship to the Father and the Spirit.

Water and it’s 3 phases is an incomplete way to explain the mystery of the Trinity and the Church acknowledges this. The trouble with this analogy is that the three phases of water do not exist at the same time in the same place. We know that this is not true of the Trinity.

So you can’t take an incomplete analogy that provides a simple explanation of a complex subject and apply it to all phases of that subject.

Even G.K. Chesterton’s quote is simply not accurate if he is saying that Jesus was crying out in despair because He felt God had abandoned him. I suspect the context of the quote may shed a little more light on what Mr. Chesterton meant.

Meanwhile, from the Ignatius Catholic Study Bible, we get:

In context, Ps. 22 depicts the plight of a righteous sufferer. Although innocent, he is mocked and abused by the ungodly. He thus turns to God in his distress and petitions God for deliverance. By citing the psalm’s opening line, Jesus expresses his agony as he experiences the full brunt of rejection. This evokes the entire plot of Ps. 22, where the sufferer’s humiliation gives way to his vindication. Thus Jesus does not consider His Passion meaningless or a mark of failure, still less does He succumb to a sin of despair. Rather, He “trusts in God” and surrenders His spirit to the Father. Like the innocent sufferer of Ps. 22, He is confident that God will turn His misery into victory

I think, as he does in other phrases on the Cross, that Jesus is taking this opportunity to bolster His disciples at the Cross, to give them strength and courage to understand that this awful Crucifixion is all part of God’s plan of Salvation, as well as the chance to teach the reader how we should trust in God even in the face of insurmountable odds.

 

[NotWorthy]

Perhaps you need to re-read the Gospels … to see what Jesus says in regards to his relationship to the Father and the Spirit.

You mean like, “I and the Father are One”, or “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”? Something like that?

There is One God. Where One person of that Trinity is, there you will find the Others.

Here’s what the Catechism teaches on the Trinity

266 "Now this is the Catholic faith: We worship one God in the Trinity and the Trinity in unity, without either confusing the persons or dividing the substance; for the person of the Father is one, the Son’s is another, the Holy Spirit’s another; but the Godhead of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal" (Athanasian Creed; DS 75; ND 16).

267 *Inseparable in what they are, the divine persons are also inseparable in what they do. *But within the single divine operation each shows forth what is proper to him in the Trinity, especially in the divine missions of the Son’s Incarnation and the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Faithx6]

Here’s where I’m getting hung up - 1. As a result of God’s perfect Justice, the consequences of sin is separation from God and death; 2. As a result of God’s perfect Love, Jesus bore the sins of the world in atonement while He was on the cross; Jesus paid the price due to us as a result of sin, which is separation and death. Here’s the essential problem I’m having – How can God’s Justice be satisfied without Him turning away from Jesus during the three horrible hours while Jesus was on the Cross bearing the punishment for sin due to fallen humankind? Jesus, never losing faith, commited his spirit to God prior to dying. Please, explain to me where I’m wrong because I don’t like this line of logic at all but I can’t seem to get around it. Explanations of the Trinity and God’s oneness don’t seem convincing because of God’s omnipotence. I can’t see why an all powerful triune God can’t metaphysically separate/ignore/reject/turn away from an aspect of Himself for three hours if necessary to satisfy both Justice and Love.