Did he go to hell?

[OldeThom]

I’m back! A friend and I were watching the Godfather series (he just got the new HD, expanded version on DVD.) I never liked that series as a whole, but as a social and cultural commentary it is interesting, so I humored him (big screen, great sound system, free soda and snacks to boot .) At one point, a “good” mob guy (obviously Catholic) goes off to confession and some time later a particularly bloody assault takes place in which both the main “good” mob guy was killed along with the “bad” mob guys. To which my friend said, “Ah he’s in hell now!”. I asked why and my friend said because he died committing a mortal sin. Oh … ??

I’ve admittedly had some issues with the Catholic notion of sin. My protestant teachings have always stated that “sin is sin” and God sees all sin equally (usually quoting such ref’s as Ja 2:10.) I honestly never paid that much attention, accepting sin as just that: sin! That sin is against God’s nature no matter if it is stealing a penny or ethnic cleansing. Now I know the impassioned responses from the Catholic faithful against such a stance. So please do not go there, as I fully understand the error in my thinking, especially in light of 1 John 5:16-17 and many hours of prayer, thinking, reading and writing. I have been going through the CCC, the Scriptures, various commentaries and references on the degrees of sin and its consequences.

However, I am perplexed. (Using a ref CCC 1035-1037) Does the Church indeed teach we will go to hell if you die in the act of committing a mortal sin or for that matter if you die not confessing a mortal sin committed sometime after your baptism? I was running along with my new definitions of sin, venial and mortal et al, just fine until I ran into this. Doesn’t the Church teach that God makes the final determination? Isn’t God Sovereign over all things? (CCC 2749) I thought God was a merciful God? (CCC 1861) Didn’t Jesus teach only God has this power to judge, as in the example of the adulterous woman? (John 8:1-18) I am wondering if this is just confusion on my part over what is “admonishment” and what is “judgment”? The Church can admonish but only God can judge. Or am I talking in circles again …

I was raised that you could lose your salvation due to unbelief, i.e., blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (which btw was the only sin recognised as “mortal”.) But losing your salvation (implied since you are going to hell) because of an unrepented sin seems outside justification. If we will go to hell because of unrepented sin, regardless of whether we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior or not, then where is the hope? I thought purgatory plays a role in this somewhere (though I have not gotten that far yet in my studies - sorry).

So did he go to hell?

Respectfully,
Thom

 

[OldeThom]

OK, found part of my answer here, Once Saved, Always Saved. Whilst still searching for answers, I came across an answer to a question similar to mine here and this guy would be wrong in view of the aforementioned link, mortal sin can cause the loss of salvation and commit you to hell. My head is swimming …

For millions of non-Catholic Christians this is a serious affront to their way of thinking and believing. Meditation and prayer, meditation and prayer …

Respectfully,
Thom

 

[ConallCernach]

Well, the Church cannot make a declaration of the souls in Hell. Quite frankly God forbids it, as well the Church does not know.

You can try and make an perfect Act of Contrition because ultimately entering into Heaven is about your relationship to God, you can still go to Church and hate God and His commandments, also there are people who have not heard of the Catholic Church that may be granted an intellectual miracle and love God as best they can.

As for the declaration about the levels of sin, it’s derived from John who states “not all sin is fatal” I John 5:16,17.

So the character obviously isn’t in Hell because he doesn’t really exist, but for a perfect reflection of the case, we simply don’t know, and God tells us not to make judgements. =)
God bless.

 

[catholic1seeks]

Early Church Fathers

The Church Fathers are in accord with the Catholic Church’s teachings. That’s because the early Church was the Catholic Church.

Click here for more information on the Church Fathers on mortal sin.

The Didache

“Watch for your life’s sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ready, for you know not the hour in which our Lord comes. But you shall assemble together often, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if you be not made complete in the last time” (Didache 16 [A.D. 70]).

Hermas

“And as many of them . . . as have repented, shall have their dwelling in the tower . And those of them who have been slower in repenting shall dwell within the walls. And as many as do not repent at all, but abide in their deeds, shall utterly perish. . . . But if any one relapse into strife, he will be cast out of the tower, and will lose his life. Life is the possession of all who keep the commandments of the Lord” (The Shepherd 3:8:7 [A.D. 80]).

Ignatius of Antioch

“And pray without ceasing in behalf of other men; for there is hope of the repentance, that they may attain to God. For cannot he that falls arise again, and he may attain to God?” (Letter to the Ephesians 10 [A.D. 110]).

Justin Martyr

“[E]ternal fire was prepared for him who voluntarily departed from God and for all who, without repentance, persevere in apostasy” (fragment in Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:26 [A.D. 156]).

 

[OldeThom]

Well, the Church cannot make a declaration of the souls in Hell. Quite frankly God forbids it, as well the Church does not know.

Where, please?

You can try and make an perfect Act of Contrition because ultimately entering into Heaven is about your relationship to God, you can still go to Church and hate God and His commandments, also there are people who have not heard of the Catholic Church that may be granted an intellectual miracle and love God as best they can.

But this seems contradictory in light of those who do know the truth, particularly in view of CCC 1035-1037). I read about the scenario for those outside the Church.

As for the declaration about the levels of sin, it’s derived from John who states “not all sin is fatal” I John 5:16,17.

Yes, I knew this as indicated. Thank you.

So the character obviously isn’t in Hell because he doesn’t really exist, but for a perfect reflection of the case, we simply don’t know, and God tells us not to make judgements. =)
God Bless.

Well, yes obviously, it was not meant to be taken literally, the situation was hypothetical, my friends response was not and he was quite adamant. Yes, the Scriptures tell us God is the ultimate Judge and for us not to make judgments, but it would seem the Church has reserved the right to make judgments on God’s behalf. Is that correct?

Respectfully,
Thom

 

[Nickkname]

By committing mortal sin one chooses to separate oneself from God, and since hell is eternal separate from God, that is where you’ll go if you die in the state of mortal sin. However, outside of the sacrament of confession, a perfect act of contrition suffices to recieve the full forgiveness of sins and remission of punishment, i.e., your sins are absolved by God and He lessens your time in Purgatory to the point of going straigh to Heaven. Truly, God is goodness itself!

 

[catholic1seeks]

Sacred Scripture

From Catholic Education: What Ever Happened to Moral Sin?
catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0242.html

In the First Letter of St. John (5:17), we read, “…All wrongdoing is sin, but not all sin is deadly.” The notion of a “deadly” or mortal sin is found in other parts of sacred Scripture as well. For instance, St. Paul in Galatians (5:19-21) asserted, “It is obvious what proceeds from the flesh: lewd conduct, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, hostilities, bickering, jealousy, outbursts of rage, selfish rivalries, dissensions, factions, envy, drunkenness, orgies and the like. I warn you, as I have warned you before: those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God!” (Cf. Rom 1:28-32; 1 Cor 6:9-10; Eph 4:3-8) Therefore, sacred Scripture explicitly identifies certain sins which kill the grace of God in our soul and deprive a person of eternal salvation.

 

[VociMike]

If you truly reject God (and that is all that mortal sin means) at the time of your death then of course you will go to hell, because that is what you have chosen for yourself.

But we cannot say for certain that a person doing ‘X’ is committing a mortal sin, because we cannot know for certain if he has the knowledge and consent which are conditions of mortal sin. Nor can we know, even if the person has committed mortal sin before dying, if that person was repentent, perhaps in ways only God knows.

So, we have no business saying that a person is going to hell, or went to hell, because there are things and circumstances regarding that person which are known only to God. But if a person dies in mortal sin, then that person has indeed chosen to be separated from God and God will respect that choice.

It all seems so sensible, I’m not sure what problems you have with this.

 

[OldeThom]

I’m sorry catholic1seeks but your information did not help. I am not trying to justify my thinking nor am I looking for quotations (specifically) by the early Church fathers or the traditions or historicity of the Church’s view of sin, though perhaps pertinent in the greater context. I already accept this. I don’t know if you know this or not, but many of the early reformers believed in mortal sins or degrees of sins, e.g., Luther, Zwingli, even Westley though he came much later. Calvin I think was the first posit that “all sin is equal in God’s eyes” and “saved once, saved forever”. In my protestant belief, I thought one could loose their salvation due to rejecting the Holy Spirit, as I stated earlier, so the concept is not foreign to me.

Maybe you could post a comment or two on my direct questions without quotations from the early Church fathers if you could?

Respectfully,
Thom

 

[catholic1seeks]

Of course God is the judge.

**I think understanding the nature of mortal sin would help. I don’t have a lot of time now, so I direct you here: **

newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm

The articles on New Advent are very detailed and, plainly, long.

I am able to better understand the material from their website by printing an article by first copying it to Microsoft Word and increaisng the font size, and then I highlight things I want to remember. Annotating is a good way to remember things!

 

[ConallCernach]

Where, please?

“Judge not, yest you be judged” Luke 6:37

But this seems contradictory in light of those who do know the truth, particularly in view of CCC 1035-1037). I read about the scenario for those outside the Church.

Yes, if you commit mortal sin, you are spiritually dead and have separated yourself from God, however, with a perfect act of contrition, you will be forgiven by God of your mortal sins. Therefore, if a person can do a perfect act of contrition while dying, then they may be saved.

That’s why it’s impossible to know for sure.

Yes, I knew this as indicated. Thank you.

Yeah, I skimmed your first post, and didn’t see your second until after I posted.

Well, yes obviously, it was not meant to be taken literally, the situation was hypothetical, my friends response was not and he was quite adamant. Yes, the Scriptures tell us God is the ultimate Judge and for us not to make judgments, but it would seem the Church has reserved the right to make judgments on God’s behalf. Is that correct?

Nope, the Church can tell what is mortal sin through the authority given to Her by God.

“What you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and what you loose on earth with be loosed in heaven”

But She does not reserve the right to declare that someone is damned.

Pax

 

[OldeThom]

Thank you catholic1seeks for your kind response and link to newadvent.org. I had come across that site earlier in my search for information, but forgot to use it as a resource in this case.

I can’t help but wonder, as I look at the CCC and the other supported documents from the Pope and Magisterium, how similar in presentation and depth it all seems to the Halakah during Jesus’ time. I am mindful of Luke 6:1-11 and how far the law had gone in reason and purpose during the time of Jesus. Perhaps that is what tradition does over time and to be expected, but is it all necessary or, much more, right?

Is there really so much to sin? After having read through the CCC again and using the newadvent and a few other resources as reference, I am left with a sense of hopelessness and fear. I do not see or sense any joy or love in any of this, only layers of definitions, legalism and laws. I must be a simpleton, and my belief truly shallow, to be so shaken.

Having never gone this far into Catholicism before, it is quite daunting for a child of the reformation, such as myself. Oh I grew up with long lists of “don’t’s”, strict punishments and guilt, but what I came to believe in three or four sentences, now seems like a 36 volume treatise. How I wish I were a child again! When I read Rome sweet Home (S. Hahn) I had no concept of where my journey would take me.

I am a fan of G.K. Chesterton’s Father Brown and to this I can attest:

“And I say to you, wherever you find men ruled merely by mystery, it is the mystery of iniquity. If the devil tells you something is too fearful to look at, look at it. If he says something too terrible to hear, hear it. If you think some truth unbearable, bear it.” - Purple Wig

So I shall keep at it in all respects. For many of you who see the answers to this issue, and others like it, as sensible and no problem to understand, I hope you’ll forgive my inquiries and continue to bear with me in my search for answers. I am but one man of billions, I feel rather small and insignificant at the moment. However, I do appreciate all your responses - and your prayers, if you are of that mind.

Respectfully,
Thom

 

[Thing]

However, I am perplexed. (Using a ref CCC 1035-1037) Does the Church indeed teach we will go to hell if you die in the act of committing a mortal sin…

Yes. If it was a mortal sin. Mortal being understood to mean it brings death to your soul. Now, something becomes sinful for you if you do it because you think it is sinful, even if the act itself is not sinful, your intent - is to sin. To commit deadly sin then, you want to sin and you have to want to sin seriously. Combined with a knowledge that murder is a mortal sin and serious matter, it is something, a crime, already known to offend God seriously, you have the possibility of sin that is mortal. You must choose death for your soul willingly. Objectively, willingly rejecting God whether in this life or the next life carries the same penalty. Subjectively, you would need to Know the intent of the person to know if they were now in hell, only God can know a persons intent perfectly.

… or for that matter if you die not confessing a mortal sin committed sometime after your baptism?

If it was forgotten then it would be forgiven at your last confession, as you are not willingly with-holding a crime against Him. If you with-hold it it would be similar to you continuing to act out that mortal sin continuously.

I was running along with my new definitions of sin, venial and mortal et al, just fine until I ran into this. Doesn’t the Church teach that God makes the final determination?..

Yes.

Isn’t God Sovereign over all things? (CCC 2749) I thought God was a merciful God? …

Yes, He is.

(CCC 1861) Didn’t Jesus teach only God has this power to judge, as in the example of the adulterous woman?

Yes, thats why we don’t judge the person, we judge the act.

 

[ConallCernach]

Thank you catholic1seeks for your kind response and link to newadvent.org. I had come across that site earlier in my search for information, but forgot to use it as a resource in this case.

I can’t help but wonder, as I look at the CCC and the other supported documents from the Pope and Magisterium, how similar in presentation and depth it all seems to the Halakah during Jesus’ time. I am mindful of Luke 6:1-11 and how far the law had gone in reason and purpose during the time of Jesus. Perhaps that is what tradition does over time and to be expected, but is it all necessary or, much more, right?

Is there really so much to sin? After having read through the CCC again and using the newadvent and a few other resources as reference, I am left with a sense of hopelessness and fear. I do not see or sense any joy or love in any of this, only layers of definitions, legalism and laws. I must be a simpleton, and my belief truly shallow, to be so shaken.

Having never gone this far into Catholicism before, it is quite daunting for a child of the reformation, such as myself. Oh I grew up with long lists of “don’t’s”, strict punishments and guilt, but what I came to believe in three or four sentences, now seems like a 36 volume treatise. How I wish I were a child again! When I read Rome sweet Home (S. Hahn) I had no concept of where my journey would take me.

I am a fan of G.K. Chesterton’s Father Brown and to this I can attest:

“And I say to you, wherever you find men ruled merely by mystery, it is the mystery of iniquity. If the devil tells you something is too fearful to look at, look at it. If he says something too terrible to hear, hear it. If you think some truth unbearable, bear it.” - Purple Wig

So I shall keep at it in all respects. For many of you who see the answers to this issue, and others like it, as sensible and no problem to understand, I hope you’ll forgive my inquiries and continue to bear with me in my search for answers. I am but one man of billions, I feel rather small and insignificant at the moment. However, I do appreciate all your responses - and your prayers, if you are of that mind.

Respectfully,
Thom

Hopefully this can help.
Sin results from contradicting love of God. There are two different levels, spiritual sickness, and spiritual death. Spiritual is rejecting God outwardly and with knowledge of the intent and full culpability. You can help spiritual by receiving Christ’s absolution through reconciliation, or in an extreme case through a perfect act of contrition.

This saying may help you understand why we cannot say that the character went to Hell:

“Between the stirrups and the ground, many a soul lost, and many a soul found.”

 

[JRKH]

I’m back! A friend and I were watching the Godfather series (he just got the new HD, expanded version on DVD.) I never liked that series as a whole, but as a social and cultural commentary it is interesting, so I humored him (big screen, great sound system, free soda and snacks to boot .) **At one point, a “good” mob guy (obviously Catholic) goes off to confession and some time later a particularly bloody assault takes place in which both the main “good” mob guy was killed along with the “bad” mob guys. To which my friend said, “Ah he’s in hell now!”. **I asked why and my friend said because he died committing a mortal sin. Oh … ??

I’ve admittedly had some issues with the Catholic notion of sin. My protestant teachings have always stated that “sin is sin” and God sees all sin equally (usually quoting such ref’s as Ja 2:10.) I honestly never paid that much attention, accepting sin as just that: sin! That sin is against God’s nature no matter if it is stealing a penny or ethnic cleansing. Now I know the impassioned responses from the Catholic faithful against such a stance. So please do not go there, as I fully understand the error in my thinking, especially in light of 1 John 5:16-17 and many hours of prayer, thinking, reading and writing. I have been going through the CCC, the Scriptures, various commentaries and references on the degrees of sin and its consequences.

However, I am perplexed. (Using a ref CCC 1035-1037) Does the Church indeed teach we will go to hell if you die in the act of committing a mortal sin or for that matter if you die not confessing a mortal sin committed sometime after your baptism? I was running along with my new definitions of sin, venial and mortal et al, just fine until I ran into this. Doesn’t the Church teach that God makes the final determination? Isn’t God Sovereign over all things? (CCC 2749) I thought God was a merciful God? (CCC 1861) Didn’t Jesus teach only God has this power to judge, as in the example of the adulterous woman? (John 8:1-18) I am wondering if this is just confusion on my part over what is “admonishment” and what is “judgment”? The Church can admonish but only God can judge. Or am I talking in circles again …

I was raised that you could lose your salvation due to unbelief, i.e., blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (which btw was the only sin recognised as “mortal”.) But losing your salvation (implied since you are going to hell) because of an unrepented sin seems outside justification. If we will go to hell because of unrepented sin, regardless of whether we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior or not, then where is the hope? I thought purgatory plays a role in this somewhere (though I have not gotten that far yet in my studies - sorry).

So did he go to hell?

Respectfully,
Thom

I realize that your question is far deeper than the original premise from the movie but I would like to address this aspect of it.
(Note: I have never seen any fo the Godfather Movies)
In the given situation, it would be a safe bet to say that the “Good Mob Guy” is in hell for in God’s Eyes there can be no such thing as a “Good Mob Guy”.

If one is involved with such activities then one is certainly not living a Christian Life regardless of any outward signs.
Going to confession without intent to discontinue living this life pretty much nullifies the confession. How can there be perfect contrition of sins committed when the intention is to continue in the “Near Occasion of Sin” associated with this profession?
If he had confessed with the intent of truely repenting and leaving the “Family”, even if it resulted in his death, then he might make it to purgatory, and then heaven. Whithout this intention I’m afraid he is sunk, regardless of the act in shich he met his end.

As to the deeper issues of judgement, and venial and mortal sin, it is simply best to avoid any sin at all. Live a life as close to Christlike as possible. Recognize that we are always on the road and the closer we get to God the harder the devil will try to derail us. The Call to Holiness is not a call to legalism but rather a calling of us out of the world into another life with Christ.

Peace
James

 

[Mintaka]

A lot of stuff in The Godfather is about sin and fooling yourself. I mean, look at the main character. The “good” son fools himself that it would be good to help his family do evil, and winds up caught in the same old patterns of sin. Similarly, what happened to the “good” mob guy in the movie is supposed to make you think – am I going to Confession to try and repent my sin and do my best not to do it anymore? (Even if it’s not a very good best, that can be enough if you’re trying.) Or are you really not penitent, and just trying to slide by, as if God really approved of you running around hurting people as long as you spend some time at Confession? (It’s a confessional, not a tollbooth on Sin Highway.)

None of this precludes contrition at the moment of death or before. Someone who is truly contrite and truly wishes to make reparations will surely be forgiven by God, even if this change of heart only happens at the very last moment.

But the problem is that sinning does harden you, and does make it harder to be contrite. What if you throw away all the graces God has tried to give you? What if you sin bad, and your last thought is that you’re really kinda glad you sinned, and you’re not sorry one bit?

Ooooops.

 

[OldeThom]

Well friends, it has been a long day for me. Plenty of reflection, meditation and prayer … esp given today is the first Mass in the month dedicated to a greater Respect for Life. I esp enjoyed Mintaka’s post … made me chuckle And James (JRKH) thank you (once again and always) for your insight, esp:

The Call to Holiness is not a call to legalism but rather a calling of us out of the world into another life with Christ.

As for thing your comments were most interesting, esp:

If it was forgotten then it would be forgiven at your last confession, as you are not willingly with-holding a crime against Him. If you with-hold it it would be similar to you continuing to act out that mortal sin continuously.

It seems that this whole process can turn into a cat and mouse game with your conscience and your confessor. A game one would always lose no matter how much you tried to fool yourself or others (you can’t fool God and deep within our conscience we can’t fool ourselves either.) I guess I made more of this than I should of or at the very least ended up tangled in the stirrups (sorry ConallCernach I’ve only been on a horse once, around 8 or 9 yrs old, and she threw me into the bushes!).

OK, let me try and put this all together in my own words. Remember the idea of two separate “conversions” are very foreign to me ("… there are water and tears: the water of Baptism and the tears of repentance" - St. Ambrose).

Baptism removes original sin and allows us to come to God through Jesus Christ (our source of Grace.) However, we still have the nature to sin which separates us from God and the Church. To help us in our fight against sin, on our path to holiness, the Church offers us the sacrament of Penance as not only a source of forgiveness, but also as a continuing source of grace. The ideas of “imperfect and perfect contrition” are foreign to me (as is the sacrament of Penance), although I think I understand the progression from imperfect to perfect contrition which leads to absolution and ultimately through the sacrament, forgiveness. The sacrament restores our relationship with God and the Church which can only be administered by a priest (or higher ordination.)

So, the sacrament replaces personal repentance (it would seem that it does)? (I’ve read that P. Benedict XVI does a “devotional confession” every week.) In other words, in Catholicism we can pray personally to God, acknowledging our sins before Him (an act of contrition), but there is no absolution without the sacrament, right? Plus, if one had committed a mortal sin (not venial) in order to receive Holy Communion (the Eucharist) you must have received sacramental absolution. To be safe and sure, it would seem that everyone should go to confession on a regular basis then, as the line between a mortal and venial sin can become awfully “grey” at times.

My first confession ought to be very interesting. I suppose confessors are prepared for Catechumenates such as my self …

Respectfully,
Thom

 

[Thing]

It seems that this whole process can turn into a cat and mouse game with your conscience and your confessor. A game one would always lose no matter how much you tried to fool yourself or others (you can’t fool God and deep within our conscience we can’t fool ourselves either.)

I think if one is totally honest and just does ones best then they cannot lose, you can only do the possible after all. It is a sacrament which also strengthens, don’t forget, as well as absolves.
Your priest will tell you any forgotten sins are forgiven in confession but just to mention them next time, to take care of the totally honest and everything possible part. Buona fortuna.

 

[Mr_Fausto]

Considering that this person was a fictional character, I wouldn’t be too worried about his soul…instead I would pray that God have mercy on real-life mobsters and thugs.