Did I do right?

[BlestOne]

After seeing an evangelical site that totally criticizes Pope John Paul II and Catholics I felt the need to email them. Some of my emails were perhaps too heated but I will post them as I wrote. I would like some pointers from those of you who are experinced at apologetics. Thanks,
Mary

Here is the discourse:
textfield: How can you dare attack a man’s character after he has died!!! You portray the very attitude that you would call unchristian if it were directed at you. In a sense that would be an oxymoron because while you wouldn’t want someone to speak ill of you, you say in the article about Pope John Paul II that he should have been hated if he were truly a follower of Christ!! You are a hypocrite!!! and I think we all know how Jesus felt about hypocrites don’t we? It’s ok though, you can be forgiven if you truly are repentant and resolve to sin no more in this manner. Oh wait, you don’t believe that either do you? You think that saying some little prayer once in your lifetime garrantees salvation. How sorry for you! I have come to know that it is in the imitation of Christ’s life that leads me to salvation(that is what your type calls works), we all should look very closely at our own walk in life before trying to destroy a man’s reputation posthumously. I am proud to be a lifelong Catholic Christian. We celebrate the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ very much. Maybe if you did your research you would find that the Catholic Church is not the enemy you portray it to be. Oh wait another oxymoron…that must mean that the Catholic Church is right…we are persecuted more in the name of Christ than anyone else. Thanks, I get it now. I do belong to the true body of Christ, the true church, you just proved it by persecuting my people.

In Christ,

Mary

Her reply is in the next thread:

 

[BlestOne]

Hi Mary,

Where do we say,  "you think that saying some little prayer once in your lifetime guarantees salvation."

 

Right, we don't say this. It would be helpful if you wouldn't lie in your accusations. The objective fact is that the Jesus of the Catholic Church is not the Jesus of the Scriptures. The Jesus of the Scriptures paid the COMPLETE sin debt by His death and resurrection to life (Col. 2:13-14). No sin remains to be expiated in the non-existent purgatory. By His shed blood, He saves sinners FOREVER , not until their next mortal sin. (Heb. 7:25; 10:14).

 

If Catholics were as devoted, loyal and faithful to Christ as they are to their Roman Catholic religion they would reject any teaching that does not line up with the promises of God.

 

You write, " I am proud to be a lifelong Catholic..." Mary, read your Bible. ****God opposes the proud****, but gives grace to the humble. (James 4:6) May God help you to place your faith in Christ; the only One Who can save you. (Not your church, not the sacraments, not the pope or Mary or priests, etc.) See Colossians 2:8.

 

 

Because He Lives, 

Jane Gendron 

Proclaiming The Gospel 

www.progospel.org

My reply in the next threads:

 

[BlestOne]

Hi Jane,
I think it is sad how you twist everything around to your own meaning. I am proud to be affiliated with the Catholic Church.
It is not a vain pride as you are referring to in your quote, it is a comfort to
know that I belong to the one true church and I would never deny it ever, even at the cost of my life.
Surely you realize that some words in the ancient languages do not translate as well as others.
That is the pride I am talking about, the grace that comes with knowing that I am a beloved child of God.

For what it is worth Jane, I do read my Bible and I do want to point out that in the new testament Jesus tells his apostles,
that those whose sins are forgiven…doesn’t this imply that as humans we fall short of the glory of God and we are sinners?
Are all of our sins—past, present, and future—forgiven once and for all when we become Christians? Not according to the Bible or the Church Fathers.
Scripture nowhere states that our future sins are forgiven.

The means by which God forgives them is confession: “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our
sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9). Jesus passed on his mission to forgive sins to his ministers,
telling them, “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained” (John 20:21–23).

The power to forgive sins was one Christ gave to his apostles (Luke 10:16; 2 Cor. 5:18-20).
After he rose from the dead Christ said to the apostles, “‘As the Father has sent me, so I send you.’
And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit.
Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained’” (John 20:22-23).

I don’t have the authority to speak for all Catholics, just for myself and my family when I say with all humility that I accept
that I am human and a sinner, therefore I fall short of the glory of God.
I ask for forgiveness from those Christ himself commissioned to forgive our sins.
That would be my priest, in the sacrament of reconcilliation. Why would Jesus tell the people to confess their sins in a church
before celebrating the Lord’s Day including the breaking of the bread if he believed that his death would free us all from sin forever?
Yet you believe this, do you not?

So I challenge you to read your Bible completely, not just picking out one line here or there that supports your cause.
Have no cause except to find truth. The old testament book of the Wisdom of Solomon stresses that to know the truth
we have to seek wisdom and pray for understanding. Can you read the Bible from this standpoint?
Can you put aside all the false teachings you have been taught about the Catholic church?

continued:

 

[BlestOne]

Please accept my apology if your faith does not teach that praying some simple prayer about accepting God leads to eternal salvation.
From the writings on your webpage, I inferred that you are a believer in the “Once saved, Always Saved” theory that
you also subscribe to that teaching as well. I did not purposely lie and I think that perhaps you were a little heated
when you said it would be helpful if I didn’t lie in my accusations. So I am not offended by that statement as I can
see that the error lies in both of us. I assumed and you reacted.

You spoke of discrepancies between what the Catholic Chuch teaches and the promises of God. I see no discrepancy
when I look at the sinful nature of humanity. Indeed the Jesus of the Catholic Church is the Jesus of Holy Scripture.
Who is it that you believe wrote scripture and who published the Bible for the world? I see that my forefathers, the apostles,
in conjunction with the Holy Spirit is the true author of the Bible. As to who published it…I think there is no refuting
that the Catholic Church was responsible for that one. So the Bible I read everyday and I hear read in church every Sunday,
is the same Bible that my beliefs in Christ come from. Indeed Christ saves me (not saved), but the graces
I receive from the sacraments, are tools I use to learn to imitate the life of Christ as he tells us is what a christian does.

Next Saturday, I am receiving the sacrament of Holy Matrimony. In my church this is a sacrament because it is a covenant
between God, myself and a man. This is as the scripture defines marriage. According to scripture, God grants special graces to
those who form this union. It is therfore a sacrament. It is my vocation that I am a wife and mother.
It is so serious a vocation that we believe that it is forever a covenant with God. To prepare for this vocation,
prayer is an integral key to discern if it is truly God’s will and I also prayed that our Lord would help me use Mary,
our ever virgin mother as my role model. Let me clear up one thing, you have not accused Catholics of, yet is a common misbelief;
We do not worship Mary, our mother in heaven. We honor her for being good enough to be the vessel which God himself
sent his only son to earth through. We believe that she is the epitomy of a good Catholic Christian wife and mother, but
we do not worship her. That being said, I believe that as a role model, Mary is an excellent choice because everything she
does points to her son Jesus Christ.

Sacraments are an important part of our faith. Sacraments are defined as: An outward sign of inward grace,
a sacred and mysterious sign or ceremony, ordained by Christ, by which grace is conveyed to our souls.
Every sacrament we believe in is ordained by Christ in his teachings. If you would like more on the actual justification
of these sacraments, I would be happy to send you a list of scriptual readings that supports them.

continued…

 

[BlestOne]

The last point I wish to make is about the pope. There is biblical support for a pope as well in scripture.
Here is an excerpt that sums it up:
Jesus said to them: “But whom do you say that I am?” Simon said: “Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God”.
And Jesus answering said to him: “Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee,
but my Father who is in heaven. And I say to thee: That thou art Peter [Kipha, a rock], and upon this rock [Kipha]
I will build my church [ekklesian], and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth,
it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven”.
Then he commanded his disciples, that they should tell no one that he was Jesus the Christ
(Matthew 16:13-20; Mark 8:27-30; Luke 9:18-21). Peter was personally installed as Head of the Apostles by Christ Himself.
This foundation created for the Church by its Founder could not disappear with the person of Peter, but was intended
to continue and did continue (as actual history shows) in the primacy of the Roman Church and its bishops.

As you can see, I took each point you made in your letter to me and I showed biblical cause for the Catholic Church.
I did not do this in the spirit of animocity, rather in the spirit of love. I wish for you, and all people to
know and understand the true church that Christ established on earth. As Christ came to save us all, we have to choose
the salvation he brings. This is the one true point of contention that we are at odds with here, how Jesus meant for us to
be saved. As a Catholic, I believe that achieving salvation is not a one time act. I must always strive to achieve the
sanctity that our Lord wants for us by prayer, faith, and by the natural course that prayer and faith leads us to, the imitation
of Christ’s life. If I believe that Jesus is the Christ, the annointed one, as he came to show us the way, I must accept that way
and walk in the light of Christ. My daily walk with Christ includes being the one he works through to bring his people to
him. It is not a “one time” thing, as Christ is not a “one time” thing, he is a living, constant, timeless example of what
God wants us to be, what I will strive to be.

Truly I say to you, I am not your enemy, that which you need to defeat. I am a simple woman, not a biblical scholar,
not an apologist, just a woman who seeks God in her life. If you wish to bring people to Christ: know him, walk with him,
above all else, be an example for those who don’t know him that they may come to know him.

In Christ,
Mary

 

[sara888]

Hi, you did very well and you are quite versed with scripture, however trying to convince non-denominational protestants , Baptist and the new age sects with regard to interpretation of scripture will just drive you insane.

They tend to twist and distort scripture. From what you describe above, it all goes back to the OSAS doctrine (Once Saved, Always Saved) they profess and teach this doctrine as biblical, however not only is it unbilblical it lacks common sense.

They believe in Faith only and leave out the obedience, rememberance and love for Christ. They fail to describe what real faith in Christ means. They will tell you they go to church however it is not a requirement on their part for salvation, nor is communion, etc., etc.,.

I would stick with the mainstream sects of religions.

Now and then I like to debate them, however I dont take it to heart.

Sara

 

[sandusky]

FYI. Jane and Mike Gendron are former Roman Catholics. I know that Mike was in the RCC for about 37 years, I am not sure how long Jane was a member.

Mike graduated from Dallas Theological Seminary in 1992, and has written a number of Books on the Catholic Church.

My point is, that though you may not think highly of them for leaving the RCC, they do know its history, and its theology. They have a thorough understanding of both sides of the theological fence.

Just thought you might want to know.

 

[BlestOne]

sandusky:

FYI. Jane and Mike Gendron are former Roman Catholics. I know that Mike was in the RCC for about 37 years, I am not sure how long Jane was a member.

Mike graduated from Dallas Theological Seminary in 1992, and has written a number of Books on the Catholic Church.

My point is, that though you may not think highly of them for leaving the RCC, they do know its history, and its theology.

Just thought you might want to know.

Thanks for the info. iIt really will help as I believed them to have been evangelicals all their lives. It is a shame that their hatred or beef with the church caused them to be so Anti-Catholic.

 

[sara888]

May I say , they may be former Catholics, etc, however they are not quoting Catholic or Mainstream Orthodox Protestant theology. they are interpreting OSAS doctrine.

BlestOne was only interpreting Gods word with regard to Faith and Salvation according to Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition for the Catholic Faith. Regardless if they were former Catholics they are not discerning or quoting Catholic Doctrine. FYI.

Sara

 

[Celia]

Good job, BlestOne. I think you did great.

 

[Magicsilence]

Hi there Blest One.

I have tried many times to have a discussion with people like the ones you refer to. Unfortunately the arguements you presented are the ones they used to make a refutation.

While you acted with courage and strength, they are fully versed in how to refute standard catholic attacks on their false faith. Unfortunately, they will never read an arguement with anticipation of Truth, they only want you to read their “false gospel”, and most people just give a list of their beliefs.

To really challenge these people you have to find a point that they have not discussed before and stick to it. I find it usually takes about 8 times of asking before they respond to a specific question. Logic is on your side, so take it slowly.

Never let them change the subject. If they are correct they should not be afraid of discussion, right?

good luck.

In Christ.

Andre.

 

[Magicsilence]

As an example to ducking a question, here is a typical response from such people:

catholic point of view:

cballard

I’m trying to point out in looking back in time is that is seems very logical to have a teaching authority. Only since the sixteenth century were ordinary people able to afford a Bible. Only recently in history are so many able to read. The apostles were ordinary men and they were told to go out into the world and teach. Someone had to be teaching these people about Christ throughout the long span of history or Christianity could not have spread. Oral teaching was the only way to teach the world because there were not enough books for everyone. And just because Catholics believe they are the church Jesus started doesn’t mean we think others faith is of no value. I agree with all you’re saying here Star, that God is in us, that we must give ourselves to the Lord, that He speaks to us in the written word and just about everything else. So please don’t get angry. We’re more in agreement than disagreement. I just don’t understand how Christianity could have spread very far without a man to teach and preach to others.
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lone-traveler
Big Pit Bull

And the response:

PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 2:33 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
sometimes things stick funny in the brain you know LOL.

I was reading what you wrote cballard, and I thought well what was going on for that fourteen hundred years or so??

So I looked up fourteen LOL:

Mt 1:17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

2co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Ga 2:1 Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.

I have no idea if it means anything at all LOL, just thought it was wierd.

You know how they say dogs age in 7’s maybe people age in 14’s LOL.

Or every fourteen years we enter a new generation.

Just musing LOL

Lone

catholic point of view:

cballard
Hamster

PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 3:57 am Post subject: Reply with quote
The common people did not have books readily available. I never said they didn’t have any books. You misunderstand what I’m saying. After the fall of the Roman Empire, the availability of books was even more scarce. Europe at the time was not civilized. It was full of tribes similiar to the Indian tribes in America, Huns, Visgoths, Franks, etc. It most certainly was different than today where almost every family has a least one Bible.
I never said God was confined in a church building. The homes where you refer to did not confine God either. God is also not confined to the scripture. Scripture tells us ABOUT God’s saving plan for mankind, but He isn’t IN there. You are quite right to say He is in each of us. The covenent he made in the NT is a fullfillment of the OT covenant. The most solemn annual feast of the Jews was the Passover where they used unlevened bread, wine and the sacrificial lamb. That was the old covenant God had with the Jews. At the last Passover Jesus instituted the NC which changed these elements into lifegiving offerings, in fact Jesus himself. If you read any description of how early Christians gathered together it was to share in this meal. They didn’t gather to read scripture alone although that is certainly a part of the meal just as it was when the Jews celebrate the Passover even now. My understanding of what is the Church doesn’t mean a building, but a gathering of believers. Does this make any sense to you? Jesus comes to each of us and dwells in us, in fact we become partakers of His divine nature so you are right in the way you believe, just not how it comes to us. I’m not judging you in any way, I’m just explaining how a Catholic sees it. That’s why we don’t believe in the words of scripture alone but also the Word Jesus.

And the strange response.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 5:19 am Post subject: Reply with quote
Then there Very Happy We can rejoice in Christ our Lord now without disagreeing with each other and agreeing in Him amen? See that? Very Happy

In Him
Star

These kind of people are usually genuine people but are very afraid to be wrong, therefore when they sense that something may be going the wrong way so to speak, they shift direction, or ignore the topic, therefore it is vital to start small, letting them concede points which seem insignificant which all come together to prove your point.

Hope it goes well.

In Christ.

Andre.

 

[Milliardo]

sandusky:

FYI. Jane and Mike Gendron are former Roman Catholics. I know that Mike was in the RCC for about 37 years, I am not sure how long Jane was a member.

Mike graduated from Dallas Theological Seminary in 1992, and has written a number of Books on the Catholic Church.

My point is, that though you may not think highly of them for leaving the RCC, they do know its history, and its theology. They have a thorough understanding of both sides of the theological fence.

Just thought you might want to know.

Must be a very bad understanding then, if they can’t seem to account for the verses cited further on (or is this a running battle?).

 

[CARose]

Blessed One,

It looks to me like you did a good thing, regardless of whether or not it moves them to revisit their opinion of the Catholic Church, at least it should make them pause long enough to give them the opportunity to consider the unChristian approach they are taking in judging the worthiness of anothers soul. Certainly, if nothing else, they should understand that we are not called to Judge, but rather that is for Christ alone to do, He who knows our hearts.
I had an interesting opportunity earlier today to give witness to Christ in the Catholic Church and I pray that my answers to a self-confessed Evangelical may help him to see the beauty of the Catholic teachings. (We were at a funeral, hence non-Catholics in attendence). After the Funeral Mass, he, having noted that I appeared to know when to sit and stand, asked me questions. He then asked if it was OK that he ask, and assured me that he didn’t want to be disrespectful. I assured him that I didn’t take any of his questions or gentle protests that scripture suggested otherwise as any kind of insult and that I was quite happy to explain to him what Catholicism teaches. I kept praying that the Holy Spirit would guide me in my answers so that I might speak the truth without error and say something that would touch this man’s heart.

I’d love it if you guys could say a quick pray that all those who have heard aspects of the Catholic Church today might be moved to come to know Christ more fully, and in so doing come into full union with the Church.

Thanks and God Bless,

CARose

 

[sandusky]

sara888:

May I say , they may be former Catholics, etc, however they are not quoting Catholic or Mainstream Orthodox Protestant theology. they are interpreting OSAS doctrine.

BlestOne was only interpreting Gods word with regard to Faith and Salvation according to Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition for the Catholic Faith. Regardless if they were former Catholics they are not discerning or quoting Catholic Doctrine. FYI.

Sara

I have read two of Mike’s books, and find him to be very knowledgeable of both the Catholic doctrine, and what the Scripture teaches. I also believe that OSAS is clearly taught in Scripture. Mike’s ministry is evangelical, and directed to those in the Catholic Church.

That’s the position he and Jane are coming from.

 

[CARose]

Sandusky,

It sounds as though we might disagree as to the truth of OSAS. I will pray for you.

CARose

 

[sara888]

**Sandusky said
:I also believe that OSAS is clearly taught in Scripture. Mike’s ministry is evangelical, and directed to those in the Catholic Church.

Can you show me where in scripture the Lord teaches OSAS doctrine.?

Also why are the ten commandments taught by Our Lord.? Who are they for?

Why are their consequences in Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Revelations for us believers.?

With GOd all things are possible .?

Faith is dead without works.?

Why will it be hard for a rich man to enter into the Kingdom?

I could go on and on and copy and paste the whole bible which refutes OSAS. .

Just believe and “thou shall be saved”. Is this all God asked from us.

We should do deeds or works of charity, church, etc, etc, however if we dont, can we still enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, because we have faith only in Christ.?

We dont need to show our Love for Christ.?

Sara**

 

[BlestOne]

I feel that I need to seek forgiveness for the sin of pride. I let my pride interfere with rational thought and I lost my temper in the first contact with these folks. It didn’t occur to me at first but in retrospect, I think this is what they thrive on. I confess that my pride made me attempt to reason with these people and my pride prevented me from seeing when I was so far out of my league I should have left it alone. I am not qualified to argue with these folks but I will continue if they email a response to me. This time perhaps I need to remember not to do it alone but to ask for help from experienced apologists and from our Lord himself. I will be going to confession on Friday and maybe my pastor can give me some advice about not allowing my pride to get the best of me again. Please friends pray that I do not allow my pride to interfere again, but let the Holy Spirit guide me in all things especially this matter.
Thanks for all your encouragement! I love you all!

 

[sara888]

Pride, yes all of us on hear fail that one.

Because we all want to be heard and get our views expressed. We can do it with humility, however Pride(devils favorite sin) does get in the way.

I will say a prayer for you, and you can say one for me too.!

I just get upset when the Lord is mocked and doctrine is being distorted and twisted to suit one’s way of life, rather than what God wants from us Christians.
But I guess we should all start with humility first when addressing posters.

Sara

 

[BlestOne]

sara888:

Pride, yes all of us on hear fail that one.

Because we all want to be heard and get our views expressed. We can do it with humility, however Pride(devils favorite sin) does get in the way.

I will say a prayer for you, and you can say one for me too.!

I just get upset when the Lord is mocked and doctrine is being distorted and twisted to suit one’s way of life, rather than what God wants from us Christians.
But I guess we should all start with humility first when addressing posters.

Sara

Sara,
Surely I will say a prayer for you…I will thank God for your wise counsel. While I am at it…Thanks! I really got mad at the whole stupid idea that if JPII was a holy man he should have been hated by everyone. That is what got me first, then there was soo much more. I am resolved that I must find a way to remember humility and mercy when dealing with people like this. Thank God my pastor is very patient and I will also seek his advice. I am very glad that I recognized my error and feel a desire to correct it. This is progress!!! It isn’t about my will it is about God’s will and I think as long as I keep this first in my mind, the avoidace of pride will be easier. Thanks again for your answer.