Did I do right?

[ekim61]

BlestOne:

I feel that I need to seek forgiveness for the sin of pride. I let my pride interfere with rational thought and I lost my temper in the first contact with these folks. It didn’t occur to me at first but in retrospect, I think this is what they thrive on. I confess that my pride made me attempt to reason with these people and my pride prevented me from seeing when I was so far out of my league I should have left it alone. I am not qualified to argue with these folks but I will continue if they email a response to me. This time perhaps I need to remember not to do it alone but to ask for help from experienced apologists and from our Lord himself. I will be going to confession on Friday and maybe my pastor can give me some advice about not allowing my pride to get the best of me again. Please friends pray that I do not allow my pride to interfere again, but let the Holy Spirit guide me in all things especially this matter.
Thanks for all your encouragement! I love you all!

Sometimes pride is a good thing. I think in this case it is what made you stand up to these people. I don’t think that pride is always sinful. Would it be a sin for me to be proud of my children?

It is a good thing that you beleive you are out of your league with these people. They are very well educated and could probably out debate you. Althiugh you did very well as far as I can see. They are very closed minded and don’t want to here anything any of us have to say. God Bless.

 

[sandusky]

Sandusky said
:I also believe that OSAS is clearly taught in Scripture. Mike’s ministry is evangelical, and directed to those in the Catholic Church.

You asked:

sara888:

Can you show me where in scripture the Lord teaches OSAS doctrine.?

Also why are the ten commandments taught by Our Lord.? Who are they for?

I cannot respond to every point in your post right now, but the first one as to where the Lord teaches OSAS, I will point you to three areas: John 5:24-26; John 6:37-40; John 10:27-29.

Also, if you would tell me what the 10 commandments are for, and who they are for, I will give you my answer to that later.

God bless

 

[mercygate]

BlestOne:

I feel that I need to seek forgiveness for the sin of pride. I let my pride interfere with rational thought and I** lost my temper** in the first contact with these folks. It didn’t occur to me at first but in retrospect, I think this is what they thrive on. I confess that my pride made me attempt to reason with these people and my pride prevented me from seeing when I was so far out of my league** I should have left it alone.** I am not qualified to argue with these folks but I will continue if they email a response to me. This time perhaps I need to remember not to do it alone but to ask for help from experienced apologists and from our Lord himself.** I will be going to confession on Friday** and maybe my pastor can give me some advice about not allowing my pride to get the best of me again. Please friends pray that I do not allow my pride to interfere again, but let the Holy Spirit guide me in all things especially this matter.
Thanks for all your encouragement! I love you all!

Congratulations for all the points I put in bold in your post. Ain’t hindsight a wonderful thing!

My advice: Stay away from apologetics until you master your temper. If you can’t stay away from it, save your heated responses in draft form, hold 'em for three days, then run them past a few other people before sending them.

 

[Peace-bwu]

Blestone,
You did the right thing. I have done the same over the past few years and it felt frustrating to not be able to “get anywhere” the people I debated in the websites I am referring to fell completely justified in their false accusations because the believe the Catholic church is wrong and if they need to exaggerate to turn people away from the Church (which they honestly believe is evil) then they feel that is perfectly acceptable.

Witnessinig to them was the right thing to do. Try not to let it frustrate you. Only God can change a hardened heart. Just pray for them, and pray that your own faith will never waver. You did your part to witness to them and if they want to be the Scriptural swine that trample pearls that is their choice. (please note I am not actully calling them swine, but referring to Scripture)

 

[AsStAnselmPrays]

BlestOne, you did awesome with your discources, letters, and conversations. I have found that, personally speaking, it is impossible to change someone else’s view of Scripture or Church. When an argument is going on, it is impossible to make ground.

However, keep defending the faith. Make Christ proud, but not too proud, because, as you know, God rejects the proud.

 

[Peace-bwu]

mercygate:

Congratulations for all the points I put in bold in your post. Ain’t hindsight a wonderful thing!

My advice: Stay away from apologetics until you master your temper. If you can’t stay away from it, save your heated responses in draft form, hold 'em for three days, then run them past a few other people before sending them.

Good advice.

Love comes from God, pray to the Holy Spirit before you try your hand at apologetics. If you are called to witness to someone, the Holy Spirit will make it possible, and the words will come to you. They will be calm and loving. If you feel anger and pride they are not from the Holy Spirit. Pray about it and if the words come to you out of a sense of love and charity, then use them. Otherwise they are coming form your will rather than the Will of God. We all battle our own will and the deadly sins. Being good at apologetics takes prayer and practice. Sometimes I feel called to it and other times I take a break from it. Before Catholic Answers began I was an online apologist traveling from site to site. I felt a strong calling to defend the Church. I spent the first year at CA mostly in the noncatholic religion forum and the apologetics forum. I had some great posts. When I started feeling frustrated and like I wasnt’ making any difference, I took a long break and took some time for spiritual growth. After at least 6 months I am beginning to feel like I coudl do it again. Be patient with yourself and the people around you.

There is such a thing as riteous anger but if the fruit of that emotion is not love and charity, then is isn’t riteous.

 

[BlestOne]

mercygate:

Congratulations for all the points I put in bold in your post. Ain’t hindsight a wonderful thing!

My advice: Stay away from apologetics until you master your temper. If you can’t stay away from it, save your heated responses in draft form, hold 'em for three days, then run them past a few other people before sending them.

Hi Mercygate,
Yes hindsight is wonderful. As much as I am too proud, I do recognize that I errored and I need to seek God’s forgiveness. I did apologize in my email to the evangelical, but now more importantly, my relationship with our Lord will be restored. I think this being my first attempt at dealing with apologetics I was over eager but I have seen my error thanks to God…I have resolved to pray before hitting the send button from now on.
Mary

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

sandusky:
Well, I’m not Catholic, at least not yet, so I’m probably not the best person to defend Catholic doctrine. However, when I checked those passages you mentioned…

John 5:24-26 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.

John 6:37-40 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 10:27-29 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.

…in John 5, 6, and 10, it does seem that more crucial information can be found when one searches the entire chapter in question. Whenever anyone, Catholic, Protestant, or other, tries to prove a doctrine from an individual verse or two, I always try to look at the context.

For example, in John 5, it also says:

John 5:14 Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, “See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you.”

John 5:28-29 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.”

It seems to me that there is an emphasis here on doing good and avoiding evil, not just on accepting Christ.

And in John 6, it says:

John 6:53-57 Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.”

This is, of course, the passage Catholics say refers to the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Now, I could be wrong on this, but this passage seems to imply that by partaking in the Eucharist, we live. I’m not a Catholic theologian, so I don’t know what role the Eucharist is supposed to play in salvation. I just thought that the presence of this very important Catholic passage in the same chapter as a passage seeming to support “once saved, always saved” was noteworthy.

Anyway, I’m not necessarily trying to defend the Catholic viewpoint (though I would be dishonest if I didn’t admit I am increasingly inclined to agree with it). I’m just saying that it is possible to see more than “once saved, always saved” in the Scriptures.

God Bless!

 

[BlestOne]

Peace-bwu:

Good advice.

Love comes from God, pray to the Holy Spirit before you try your hand at apologetics. If you are called to witness to someone, the Holy Spirit will make it possible, and the words will come to you. They will be calm and loving. If you feel anger and pride they are not from the Holy Spirit. Pray about it and if the words come to you out of a sense of love and charity, then use them. Otherwise they are coming form your will rather than the Will of God. We all battle our own will and the deadly sins. Being good at apologetics takes prayer and practice. Sometimes I feel called to it and other times I take a break from it. Before Catholic Answers began I was an online apologist traveling from site to site. I felt a strong calling to defend the Church. I spent the first year at CA mostly in the noncatholic religion forum and the apologetics forum. I had some great posts. When I started feeling frustrated and like I wasnt’ making any difference, I took a long break and took some time for spiritual growth. After at least 6 months I am beginning to feel like I coudl do it again. Be patient with yourself and the people around you.

There is such a thing as riteous anger but if the fruit of that emotion is not love and charity, then is isn’t riteous.

AMEN Peace-bwu!
I am learning…but gosh, does it always have to be the hard way? You are right, the spirit of love and charity is the only way to be sure that my temper will not get the best of me again. I pray that I have learned from this experience. Your post is as always, informed and right on target! Thank you for sharing with me. I so desperately want to learn. I have also resolved to join a new Bible Study class offered by my parish. I have so long wanted to join but they only offered it during the day, now they are offering a class at night as well.

 

[BlestOne]

AsStAnselmPrays:

BlestOne, you did awesome with your discources, letters, and conversations. I have found that, personally speaking, it is impossible to change someone else’s view of Scripture or Church. When an argument is going on, it is impossible to make ground.

However, keep defending the faith. Make Christ proud, but not too proud, because, as you know, God rejects the proud.

I will never quit defending the faith, I just may have to educate myself on how to deal with people like these. They apparently are ex-Catholics who became evangelicals so they are well versed on not only their rhetoric but also on the CCC.

 

[mercygate]

BlestOne:

Hi Mercygate,
Yes hindsight is wonderful. As much as I am too proud, I do recognize that I errored and I need to seek God’s forgiveness. I did apologize in my email to the evangelical, but now more importantly, my relationship with our Lord will be restored. I think this being my first attempt at dealing with apologetics I was over eager but I have seen my error thanks to God…I have resolved to pray before hitting the send button from now on.
Mary

One big cyber-hug coming your way.

I don’t think people realize what kind of a nerve they hit when they attack JP II. You were pretty new here when the he died. Do you remember the attacks we shipped from anti-Catholics at that time? We were mourning the death of our father, and the anti-Catholics were slammin’ him everywhichway from Sunday. It was really hard to too keep our cool.

What’s good about your situation is that you seeit. Better to learn the hard way than not to learn at all. :tiphat:

 

[mercygate]

BlestOne:

I will never quit defending the faith, I just may have to educate myself on how to deal with people like these. They apparently are ex-Catholics who became evangelicals so they are well versed on not only their rhetoric but also on the CCC.

One thing to remember (mercygate: take your own advice ) is always to craft your answers without characterizations. Strip the attack down to its clear center point, respond to the point without emotional color. Support your statements with resources. Respond to the real issue, not necessarily the presenting issue.

You’re too young to remember the old TV show, Dragnet. Sgt. Joe Friday used to cut to the chase in an interrogation by saying: “Just the facts, M’am.” Apologists would do well to keep that saying stuck on the computer.

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

BlestOne:
I am very glad to hear of your apology and your growth! Thank you for your desire to spread the truth about Christ. When I came here two months ago, everyone was very respectful and they have continued to be so. This Sunday, as you know, I went to my first Mass. So, the respectful way works! May God bless you as you share His word!

 

[BlestOne]

Lambic Pen, Peace-bwu, mercygate, sara888, and AsStAnselmPrays… You guys are my heros!!! I want to be like you when and if I grow up…oh btw mercygate…I do remember that show…I am so old my kids ask me if Jesus tipped well at the last supper.

 

[mercygate]

BlestOne:

I am so old my kids ask me if Jesus tipped well at the last supper.

 

[sara888]

Sandusky ,

Jesus did say,

FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD, THAT HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, THAT WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH, BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE. JOHN3:16

Jesus also said for believers.

“You have heard that the law of Moses says, ‘Do not murder. If you commit murder, you are subject to judgment.’ But I say, if you are angry with someone, you are subject to judgment! If you call someone an idiot, you are in danger of being brought before the high council. And if you curse someone, you are in danger of the fires of hell.” Matthew 5:21-22)

** "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.** Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ (NIV, Matthew 7:21-23

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like.** I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.** But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no lawJesus said to the people who believed in him, “You are truly my disciples if you keep obeying my teachings. And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” John 8:31-32)
**
Those who obey my commandments are the ones who love me. And because they love me, my Father will love them, and I will love them. And I will reveal myself to each one of them.", John 14:21)**

I could copy and paste the whole bible, Faith and obedience go hand in hand you can not seperate the two.You must describe what it means to have real faith in Christ.

Sara

 

[sara888]

**
Jesus said “if you love me, you will keep my commandments” (John 14:15). Moreover, we will strive to teach others to observe whatever is required from the Lord .

Matthew 5:19 Whoever breaks one of the least of these comm
andments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
.**

.

 

[DianJo]

OOOO - Blest One! You did good! But…I could hear the anger in your typing! I’ve been there! I read the same article and clicked on the “Contact Us” button because I was gonna chastise them for being so insulting, arrogant and most of all judgemental - especially about the most beloved Christ-like man this world had known in some time! They could only dream of being half the God-fearing and loving man he was!

I think I felt the same thing you did and I’m not entirely sure it was pride - it was probably anger at the outright lies about Jesus’ representative and church. I get so angry when I hear that kind of thing. It’s like - do you really believe what you say when you know it could only be outright lies!!! Are people that gulible? I guess so! All you really want to do is set them straight, straighten out the lies and misconceptions, but … people like that want to believe the lies and there’s nothing you can do to change that. I never did hit that “Contact Us” button because I knew it would only make my blood boil and I’d have to go to confession for being un-Christ-like! So, I let it go.

That bunch - their goal in life is to take people out of the Catholic Church - and they say so on their homepage! I couldn’t believe it! Do we do that in our church - certainly not! How uncharitable - how arrogant! Do we ever disparge anothers faith? Never!

Our job is to be charitable to them. Show them Christ through us - the Catholic! Kill them with kindness! Maybe, one day, the light bulb will come on and they will come out from under the dark veil that Satan has draped across their eyes and their hearts! We can only hope!

Next time - take a few minutes before you hit that “Contact Us” button and let the anger pass. Pray for them and if you still feel the need to respond, you’ll be in a much better position to do so.

Go get 'em, girl!

 

[sandusky]

Sara,

You have presented some interesting verses for me to consider, and I will consider them, but you have not addressed any of the verses that cited in answer to your question.

Let’s just look at one of them, then.

John 5:24-26
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
26 “For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;

Are you saying, that in v24, Jesus does not really mean that the one who hears and believes has eternal life, and escapes judgment?

If He does not mean what He is saying, then what does He mean?

 

[CARose]

Sandusky,

Certainly Christ desires that all whom the Father has called should answer and come to Him. God loves all His children and desires that we all come to him freely, of our own free will. But he also allows us the freedom to turn from him, this is called sin.

We turn our backs on him in big and little ways through our sin, mortal (big sins which cut us off from God) and venial (little sins, which dull our souls and make us more prone to additional sin).

Satan alone cannot snatch us from God, for none can take us from God. But Satan can tempt us, and we in our weak and fallen nature are prone to sin. When we find ourselves tempted, the surest way of returning to grace is to pray for the help of Jesus.

If we have actually committed sin, we can get right with God through the sacrament of confession, a beautiful gift given to mankind by Christ.
21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” 22 And when he has said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. 23 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and who sins you retain are retained.”
(John 20:21-23).
One cannot forgive the sins of another if he does not know what they are. And without the authority of the Church, how would anyone presume to fail to forgive the sins of another, for we are forgiven according to how we forgive others (the Lord’s Prayer).
Our Father, who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come,
thy will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
I’m pleased to hear that the wonderful list of passages Sara has quoted for you have given you pause and an opportunity to reconsider your position. Certainly God desires all from you that you are capable of giving, and the Catholic Church provides to her children the surest access to grace, given to us by Christ himself.

God Bless,

CARose