Did I go to a Tridentine Mass?

  • Thread starter Thread starter beleg
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Ad_Orientem said:
That’s fine, but keep in mind that the traditional Mass is a different experience, and our participation is a little different. It emphasizes more the unique role of the priest as the principal offerer of the sacrifice. He uses (I think) three levels of voice, one of which is nearly inaudible even to the altar servers. That voice (essentially a whisper) is used when he is most solemnly exercising his priestly office (e.g. the Canon of the Mass). We can of course follow along in our missals, even silently pray along, taking cues from his movements; but we should not expect to hear every word he says, or think that we are thereby excluded from the sacrifice.
Click to expand...
I never realized there were three levels of voice tone. I know one of them is the submissa voce*, the low tone; the other may be secreta voce, the most silent. (normative voce would be the third?)
  • using ablative case
And whereas such is the nature of man, that, without external helps, he can not easily be raised to the meditation of divine things; therefore has holy Mother Church instituted certain rites, to wit, that certain things be pronounced in the mass in a low, and others in a louder, tone.
Click to expand...
Session XXII, Council of Trent
 
Ad_Orientem said:
That’s fine, but keep in mind that the traditional Mass is a different experience, and our participation is a little different. It emphasizes more the unique role of the priest as the principal offerer of the sacrifice.
Click to expand...
Above the altar of a Catholic Church there is or was a large Crucifix. Catholic Churches were historically constructed so that both the priest and the congregation faced the East. In early Christianity, it was believed that Christ’s returned was imminent, and that He would return from Heavenly Jerusalem from the East. This is why the priest faces the Crucifix above the altar during the Tridentine Mass.
 
I wish we could go to a Tridentine Mass! How did you receive Holy Communion?
 
grotto said:
I wish we could go to a Tridentine Mass! How did you receive Holy Communion?
Click to expand...
Holy Communion was received from the priest while kneeling at the Communion rail. Either an altar boy or a paten boy preceded the priest along the Communion rail and held a gold paten beneath the chin of the recipient. The altar server or paten boy stepped backwards from one recipient to the next and it was important to remain alert to the movements of the priest whose attention was focused on serving Holy Communion. Only the priest served Holy Communion, and it was received only on the tongue. And only the priest was normally permitted to touch the Host. The altar servers also received Holy Communion during every Mass during which they served. (If not, it was a good idea to have an explanation ready following Mass. It wouldn’t happen twice. There was both daily Mass (actually three morning Masses at our Parrish Church) and daily Confession during that era. As a result, I was acting as an altar server on the seven days of nearly ever week.)

Traditional Catholic Churches were of cruciform design, often with the design facing the
East. The Communion rail symbolized the horizontal beam of the Cross. The altar was at or near the top of the Cross, with the main isle of the Chuch symbolizing the upright part of the Cross.

It is correct that even the altar servers, kneeling on the steps of the altar and only feet below the priest, could not easily hear all of the Latin spoken by the priest. However, the server had to know by memory the Latin responses and say them aloud at the correct moment. There were also bells that the server rang during the Consecration.
 
grotto said:
I wish we could go to a Tridentine Mass! How did you receive Holy Communion?
Click to expand...
I didn’t. I stayed in the back so that I could see what everyone was doing. I wasn’t sure how to approach the Communion rail, so I didn’t even try. That’s for next time, now that I know the procedure.
 
beleg said:
I didn’t. I stayed in the back so that I could see what everyone was doing. I wasn’t sure how to approach the Communion rail, so I didn’t even try. That’s for next time, now that I know the procedure.
Click to expand...
I guess you’ve never received kneeling at the altar rail before? It is not unheard of in the Ordinary Form (Novus Ordo). At my cathedral it is the norm as well as in a number of the other parishes in the archdiocese. I know from experience how much more efficient it is… it cuts down on the “need” for an army of extraordinary ministers. At my cathedral the priests in residence come in at the appropriate moment to help distribute holy communion (there are 4 masses each week day and 7 on Sundays) so that lay ministers are almost never required. Latin is often used, as is incense and chant… but this is the Novus Ordo.
 
ServusHumilis said:
Also, “Tridentine Mass” isn’t a good term for the Extraordinary Form as the Mass in that form certainly predates the Council of Trent.
Click to expand...
I thought the Extraordinary Form was the Latin Rite Mass of the 1962 Missal. Is that not correct?
 
Thomas_White said:
I thought the Extraordinary Form was the Latin Rite Mass of the 1962 Missal. Is that not correct?
Click to expand...
The Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite, “Traditional Latin Mass” (TLM), and “Tridentine Mass” are one in the same.

I disprove of the use of the term “Tridentine Mass” because the Mass in that from certainly predates the Council of Trent. It almost seems to be a derogatory term amongst some of the Ordinary Form crowd, just as “Novus Ordo” seems to be amongst some of the EF crowd.
 
I’ve heard lots of talk about what is the correct term for the 1962 Mass, but it really doesn’t matter. Pope Benedict XVI called it the Extraordinary Form, but for several hundred years it was just called “the Mass” because it was the only one in the western church. Prior to Trent there were dozens of variations of the Mass. The protestant revolution brought about the call for a Council to combat the revolt. The Council set about “standardizing” the liturgy allowing for few exceptions, Dominican, Ambrosian and a couple of others as they were more than 200 years old. For the most part what Trent came up with was what had been celebrating for 1500 years. Hear again there were some minor changes. So from the mid 1500’s until 1969 the Mass was basically the same everywhere. Yes, there were some priests that experimented with what we would call oddities and this is why Pope Pius X warned about modernism. Leo XIII also warned about it prior.

Benedict XVI has called the Novus Ordo (so named by Paul VI) a complete break with the past, yet says it is valid. So be it.
 
ServusHumilis said:
The Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite, “Traditional Latin Mass” (TLM), and “Tridentine Mass” are one in the same.

I disprove of the use of the term “Tridentine Mass” because the Mass in that from certainly predates the Council of Trent. It almost seems to be a derogatory term amongst some of the Ordinary Form crowd, just as “Novus Ordo” seems to be amongst some of the EF crowd.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the explanation. I’m thinking now that the EF Mass simply uses the 1962 Missal since it was the last Roman Rite Missal promulgated. But the history of this form of the Mass does indeed predate the Council of Trent.

Tridentine: of or about Tridentium, the modern day city of Trent, Italy.
 
Thomas_White said:
I’m thinking now that the EF Mass simply uses the 1962 Missal since it was the last Roman Rite Missal promulgated.
Click to expand...
Actually the 1962 Missal is the last typical edition of the Roman Rite published before Vatican II. Before that, it was 1920, I believe.
 
ProVobis said:
Actually the 1962 Missal is the last typical edition of the Roman Rite published before Vatican II. Before that, it was 1920, I believe.
Click to expand...
Yes, I realize that is correct. What’s worse is I knew it too. There were of course a number of typical editions over the centuries following the Council of Trent.
 
Ad_Orientem said:
That’s fine, but keep in mind that the traditional Mass is a different experience, and our participation is a little different. It emphasizes more the unique role of the priest as the principal offerer of the sacrifice. He uses (I think) three levels of voice, one of which is nearly inaudible even to the altar servers. That voice (essentially a whisper) is used when he is most solemnly exercising his priestly office (e.g. the Canon of the Mass). We can of course follow along in our missals, even silently pray along, taking cues from his movements; but we should not expect to hear every word he says, or think that we are thereby excluded from the sacrifice.
Click to expand...
Three levels of voice is correct. As Ad Orientem mentioned, one of them is hard for even the altar servers to hear. Another is supposed to be just loud enough for the servers to hear. The final one is loud enough for the congregation to hear too. I have been serving for about twelve years now, and been head server for about 9 years. It does seem to me that our current chaplain speaks a bite louder then some of our previous ones. So maybe it depends partly on how the priest celebrating understands the three levels.
 
tradcathconvert said:
Three levels of voice is correct. As Ad Orientem mentioned, one of them is hard for even the altar servers to hear. Another is supposed to be just loud enough for the servers to hear. The final one is loud enough for the congregation to hear too. I have been serving for about twelve years now, and been head server for about 9 years. It does seem to me that our current chaplain speaks a bite louder then some of our previous ones. So maybe it depends partly on how the priest celebrating understands the three levels.
Click to expand...
During the elementary school grades of 6-8, from 1955-59, I was an altar server. The Mass was of course a Tridentine Mass. Mass was said daily, and I was an altar sever for the seven days of most weeks during this period since there were three morning Masses every day.

During the Tridentine Mass, we knelt on the altar steps and were only a few feet from where the priest stoood at the altar. We had not yet studied Latin, but we knew from the English translation what was essentially said. We memorized the Latin responses, and we knew the meaning of many Latin words. When the priest spoke in a low voice, in essence a whisper, we could hear the spoken Latin. This was quickly said and not clearly understood by us. But hear it we did. The congregation was some distance away beyond the communion rail and could not possibly have heard what the priest spoke with a low voice. We did not know the names of these voices, but we certainly knew the three voices.
 
Thomas_White said:
During the elementary school grades of 6-8, from 1955-59, I was an altar server. The Mass was of course a Tridentine Mass. Mass was said daily, and I was an altar sever for the seven days of most weeks during this period since there were three morning Masses every day.

During the Tridentine Mass, we knelt on the altar steps and were only a few feet from the priest while he was at the altar. We had not yet studied Latin, but we knew from the English translation what was essentially said. We memorized the Latin responses, and we knew the meaning of many Latin words. When the priest spoke in a low voice, in essence a whisper, we could hear the spoken Latin. This was quickly said and not clearly understood by us. But hear it we did. The congregation was some distance away beyond the altar rail and could not possibly have heard what the priest spoke with a low voice. We did not know the names of these voices, but we certainly knew the three voices…
Click to expand...
 
I went back today, and as I sat nearer to the altar, and had a guide to the Mass with me, things were a lot clearer. The guide wasn’t the best, and confused me a little, since there were whole sections of what the priest and choir were saying that simply weren’t in there, and whole sections for the Low Mass that they didn’t do. But I think those things were supposed to be specific to the day the Mass is said on (the epistle and gospel readings in the guide were obviously for a different day). I’m probably going to have to get a daily missal if I’m going to be able to follow everything perfectly.

I’m still a little confused why the Last Gospel isn’t read aloud, though. I had been under the impression that it would be.

Overall, I think that I’ll continue going to that Mass. It wasn’t so completely alien like I thought it might be, though it’ll still take some getting used to. (Also, the church building itself is absolutely beautiful, and the choir is quite good, so that’s a big plus ;).)
 
beleg said:
I’m still a little confused why the Last Gospel isn’t read aloud, though. I had been under the impression that it would be.
Click to expand...
Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn’t. The priest has some discretion in the loudness of certain prayers. This particular one isn’t bound to be in secret, though, as some other prayers are.
 
beleg said:
I went back today, and as I sat nearer to the altar, and had a guide to the Mass with me, things were a lot clearer. The guide wasn’t the best, and confused me a little, since there were whole sections of what the priest and choir were saying that simply weren’t in there, and whole sections for the Low Mass that they didn’t do. But I think those things were supposed to be specific to the day the Mass is said on (the epistle and gospel readings in the guide were obviously for a different day). I’m probably going to have to get a daily missal if I’m going to be able to follow everything perfectly.

I’m still a little confused why the Last Gospel isn’t read aloud, though. I had been under the impression that it would be.
Overall, I think that I’ll continue going to that Mass. It wasn’t so completely alien like I thought it might be, though it’ll still take some getting used to. (Also, the church building itself is absolutely beautiful, and the choir is quite good, so that’s a big plus ;).)
Click to expand...
High mass take a bit of getting used to. The choir and the Priest are on different time tables. The priest will normally recite the parts that the choir chants silently and then continue with the mass. Don’t sweat that stuff, just enjoy the beauty and you will pick it up. I still remember my first Latin Mass 10 years ago… I was soooo lost… now I know enough to post in Catholic Answers.
Technically the Last Gospel is not part of the Mass (it’s after the “Ite missa est”) It’s intention is for the priest to meditate on as he returns to the sacristy. While many priests read it aloud at low masses it is not required and rarely done at high mass.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top