Did I steal?

[JSSD]

You cannot want something that you do not know exists.

But you can know, generically speaking, that people out there wish to advertise, proselytize, whatever. If I want to see it, well

A transaction of any kind requires that two parties consent to the transfer of ownership.

And several of us have indicated that, yes, we would like the religious tracts, pizza coupons, book of mormon, whatever - when dropped at our homes. We have indicated that yes, we want all future transactions.

If I put illegal material on your property with the intent that you receive and read it, are you willing to be charged with the crime of owning such material?

So you’re going to pay the fine?

Well, that gets into something entirely different, doesn’t it? I’m sorry I’m not willing to equate the above with the heinous crime some of you think it is.

If you spray paint graffiti all over my garage door, yeah, it is a crime, but yeah, I’m ultimately responsible and if I ignore it, you bet I’ll ultimately pay the fine.

You don’t seem to understand the purpose of the mail service and the laws surrounding it. It is set up in such a way to allow the kind of

Perhaps you missed above where I mentioned my FIL, the postmaster. I’m quite aware of the laws. We’ve all noted the OP left and this was likely a troll, but…

…what some of the presumptions don’t allow for is the fact that it may not have been anything like this. I did note above, my mailbox isn’t on public property. It isn’t on an easement. You can reach it from one, but it is certainly on my property. (Edit PS for those who seem to think your mailbox is owned by the feds: When it gets weathered, try to get them to replace it and then see who owns it). But I’ve owned homes where the mailbox is completely remote from the property. I’ve lived in homes where the mailbox was on the porch. All this is neither here nor there, IMHO, but a lot of the “this is perfectly acceptable behavior” argument seems to hinge on this.

If you wrote the laws, someone could walk out to their mailbox, be killed by the bomb that was left there, and be understood to have committed suicide.

Well, that took it to the extreme fast.

But more to the point, it is in no way illegal for someone else to pick up such a package. It has been left in the public domain.

And the porch where my mailbox just might be is now “public domain?” Is that true in states with castle doctrine, because now you’d have two fiercely competing laws, eh? This is again reductio ad absurdum.

Now, all other things equal, I agree that one should not go about frustrating the intentions of others. If I see a reputable citizen place a box of cookies on a mailbox, I will certainly not take it. If I see someone place pornography and a subscription to Playboy on a mailbox, I will throw it away. I suspect that this is our main point of disagreement: the JW literature is more like pornography than cookies.

I think the bolded part is our point of disagreement personally, and I’d say especially when it 1) doesn’t involve you and 2) involves activity on their property. Where do you draw the line between cookies → JW papers → porn → bomb? If you knew it were a bomb, would you take matters into your own hands or call authorities? Again, neither here nor there. We all acknowledge this “illegal junk delivery” happens to us at our homes with some regularity. If it were truly litter or whatever else, why aren’t there boy scouts or chain gangs cleaning up our neighborhoods like they do roadways?

I (and several others) think it is stealing. $0.02 I don’t think any of us are arguing it is the kind of thing that police would ever have to handle, but my biggest point of disagreement is regardless of material or delivery method, why in the world would OP have a higher claim on it than the homeowner?

 

[LeafByNiggle]

…what some of the presumptions don’t allow for is the fact that it may not have been anything like this. I did note above, my mailbox isn’t on public property. It isn’t on an easement. You can reach it from one, but it is certainly on my property. (Edit PS for those who seem to think your mailbox is owned by the feds: When it gets weathered, try to get them to replace it and then see who owns it). But I’ve owned homes where the mailbox is completely remote from the property. I’ve lived in homes where the mailbox was on the porch. All this is neither here nor there, IMHO, but a lot of the “this is perfectly acceptable behavior” argument seems to hinge on this.

And the porch where my mailbox just might be is now “public domain?” Is that true in states with castle doctrine, because now you’d have two fiercely competing laws, eh? This is again reductio ad absurdum.

For something as insignificant as picking up litter, the castle doctrine is clearly dominant. Even to do a “good deed” like cleaning up my neighbor’s lawn, I think it would be more of an affront to his privacy to go tromping around on his property, unless I knew him well and knew that he appreciated such action. So it is relevant to this discussion to consider the cases separately and have different answers depending on how private or public the mailbox access is.

By the way, for those of you who thought it was kind of creepy for someone to come onto your property to remove litter from the top of the mailbox, why don’t you think it was kind of creepy for the JW or anyone besides the postman to come onto your property and place the material there in the first place?

 

[JSSD]

For something as insignificant as picking up litter, the castle doctrine is clearly dominant. Even to do a “good deed” like cleaning up my neighbor’s lawn, I think it would be more of an affront to his privacy to go tromping around on his property, unless I knew him well and knew that he appreciated such action. So it is relevant to this discussion to consider the cases separately and have different answers depending on how private or public the mailbox access is.

And I do think all of this is secondary to the main point of should [OP] be doing this in the first place. These are all good points. You really shouldn’t be there, period.

By the way, for those of you who thought it was kind of creepy for someone to come onto your property to remove litter from the top of the mailbox, why don’t you think it was kind of creepy for the JW or anyone besides the postman to come onto your property and place the material there in the first place?

I didn’t use the word creepy, myself, but I don’t think it is unfair. I also agree the JW shouldn’t be doing this, but that’s never been the point, IMHO. As such, I do think it gets back to the two wrongs not making a right - and I do think OP was in the wrong myself. I cannot wrap my own conscience around any of the justifications for that behavior that have thus far above, but that’s just me personally. I don’t think Jesus would’ve gone behind and collected the tracts. $0.02

Hoosier (whom I’ve disagreed with a lot in this thread) did make the right point on p.1 when he pointed out their laziness in [JW] not coming to the door. I completely agree to that. And to that, using the neighborly cookies example - yeah, bring them to the door as well. Otherwise by all these mental gymnastics, why can’t I help myself to the cookies left on the mailbox because neighbor #1 was too lazy to actually go introduce himself (or whatever the circumstances were)?

 

[zippy2006]

All this is neither here nor there, IMHO, but a lot of the “this is perfectly acceptable behavior” argument seems to hinge on this.

I don’t think so, we’re not talking about trespassing. You’re bringing in an extraneous variable. The OP clearly was not trespassing.

Now, all other things equal, I agree that one should not go about frustrating the intentions of others.

If I see a reputable citizen place a box of cookies on a mailbox, I will certainly not take it. If I see someone place pornography and a subscription to Playboy on a mailbox, I will throw it away. I suspect that this is our main point of disagreement: the JW literature is more like pornography than cookies.I think the bolded part is our point of disagreement personally,

You disagree that, all other things equal, one should not go around frustrating the intentions of others?

and I’d say especially when it 1) doesn’t involve you

Are you familiar with God’s conversation with Cain?

and 2) involves activity on their property.

Again, we aren’t talking about trespassing.

Where do you draw the line between cookies → JW papers → porn → bomb?

It’s a prudential judgment.

If you knew it were a bomb, would you take matters into your own hands or call authorities?

Either way I would attempt to frustrate the intention of the person who left it there.

I (and several others) think it is stealing.

Be consistent. If removing the bomb or the porn is not stealing, then neither is removing the pamphlet.

but my biggest point of disagreement is regardless of material or delivery method, why in the world would OP have a higher claim on it than the homeowner?

This is another strawman. Who has claimed that the OP has a higher claim on it than the homeowner?

Otherwise by all these mental gymnastics, why can’t I help myself to the cookies left on the mailbox because neighbor #1 was too lazy to actually go introduce himself (or whatever the circumstances were)?

You can. It’s not illegal. No one said it was.

 

[MacQ]

For something as insignificant as picking up litter, the castle doctrine is clearly dominant. Even to do a “good deed” like cleaning up my neighbor’s lawn, I think it would be more of an affront to his privacy to go tromping around on his property, unless I knew him well and knew that he appreciated such action. So it is relevant to this discussion to consider the cases separately and have different answers depending on how private or public the mailbox access is.

By the way, for those of you who thought it was kind of creepy for someone to come onto your property to remove litter from the top of the mailbox, why don’t you think it was kind of creepy for the JW or anyone besides the postman to come onto your property and place the material there in the first place?

You can keep your “good deeds” and arrogant ideas about what people consider litter out of my neighborhood, thank you very much.
Creepy that you’re engaging in this sort of thing? Yep

 

[MacQ]

.

Zippy and (Leafy and anyone else here who is so defensive of this behavior:
If you feel so compelled to canvass and censor what your neighbors are reading, you’re kinda sick… or maybe just need to get a life. If you feel like escalating this behavior, you should really see someone about it.

 

[JSSD]

I don’t think so, we’re not talking about trespassing. You’re bringing in an extraneous variable. The OP clearly was not trespassing.
You disagree that, all other things equal, one should not go around frustrating the intentions of others?
Are you familiar with God’s conversation with Cain?
Again, we aren’t talking about trespassing.
It’s a prudential judgment.
Either way I would attempt to frustrate the intention of the person who left it there.
Be consistent. If removing the bomb or the porn is not stealing, then neither is removing the pamphlet.
This is another strawman. Who has claimed that the OP has a higher claim on it than the homeowner?
You can. It’s not illegal. No one said it was.

Wow. Just wow.
We’re obviously not going to agree on this or even the assumptions of the discussion. That’s fine, and I’m sincerely glad most folks aren’t this brand of “neighborly.”

But huge roffles at the “be consistent” remark. I do appreciate the laugh, unintentional as you meant it.

Sincerely, have a terrific holiday weekend all!

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Zippy and (Leafy and anyone else here who is so defensive of this behavior:
If you feel so compelled to canvass and censor what your neighbors are reading, you’re kinda sick… or maybe just need to get a life. If you feel like escalating this behavior, you should really see someone about it.

Let’s be clear about what is being defended. The premise of the original question (from the poster who is long gone) was is this stealing. Since it is posted in a forum on Moral Theology, we can assume that the question is whether this violates the 7th Commandment. To that question I still say no, it is not stealing. Now as to the more practical question of whether such action is advisable, there are many practical reasons to avoid such behavior. I would not defend it on those grounds. But I will say that the person doing this need not go to confession over it.

 

[zippy2006]

Wow. Just wow.
We’re obviously not going to agree on this or even the assumptions of the discussion. That’s fine, and I’m sincerely glad most folks aren’t this brand of “neighborly.”

But huge roffles at the “be consistent” remark. I do appreciate the laugh, unintentional as you meant it.

Sincerely, have a terrific holiday weekend all!

I see you’re back to your same childish antics. My post here is applicable yet again. Good luck *thinking *through this problem.

 

[Iheartcoffee]

It sounds like you were at a communal mailbox station of sorts. A lot of places are moving toward these things because they are easier to deliver mail to. You didn’t go up to a person’s house and remove the item, you removed an item that was left out for ANY NUMBER OF PEOPLE to pick up, not a particular person.

I see it as being the same as if someone left some type of literature in a bathroom, on a park bench, etc. It’s not intended for a particular person, it’s just there because more than one person will have a chance to pick it up and see it.

Therefore, I see no problem with removing it.

 

[MacQ]

It sounds like you were at a communal mailbox station of sorts. A lot of places are moving toward these things because they are easier to deliver mail to. You didn’t go up to a person’s house and remove the item, you removed an item that was left out for ANY NUMBER OF PEOPLE to pick up, not a particular person.

I see it as being the same as if someone left some type of literature in a bathroom, on a park bench, etc. It’s not intended for a particular person, it’s just there because more than one person will have a chance to pick it up and see it.

Therefore, I see no problem with removing it.

Actually, the OP said he had guilt pangs later and would have returned them if he could remember which mailboxes he took them from.
Doesn’t sound like a stack of pamphlets on top of a communal mailbox to me.

 

[MacQ]

Let’s be clear about what is being defended. The premise of the original question (from the poster who is long gone) was is this stealing. Since it is posted in a forum on Moral Theology, we can assume that the question is whether this violates the 7th Commandment. To that question I still say no, it is not stealing. Now as to the more practical question of whether such action is advisable, there are many practical reasons to avoid such behavior. I would not defend it on those grounds. But I will say that the person doing this need not go to confession over it.

I agree with that he may not need to bring it up in confession.
I disagree vehemently with people here who say it was right to take it because it’s “trash”.
If you weren’t defending it on those grounds, I apologize.

 

[yellowbird]

I’m shocked at the number of posters who think it’s OK to walk around a neighborhood removing things that were placed on top of other people’s mailboxes. I read through the entire thread and I completely disagree with those posters who stated that it was left behind but the since the homeowners didn’t claim it yet, it basically was trash. (#60, #74, #82)

I suffered a bad injury early this year and my fellow parishioners left all sorts of things outside my door or in bags hanging from my mailbox. Food- books -cards - magazines - candy - even a prayer shawl the ladies knitted. I never knew the things were coming, they were just nice surprises.

Good thing none of you live in my neighborhood, I guess they all would’ve been up for grabs? Heaven forbid that YOU determined the books they left weren’t worth reading - or maybe the candy wasn’t healthy?

Regarding the JW literature specifically - as a former JW I know that the person who left the literature behind more than likely paid for it. You had no right to insert yourself and take what he left. Also, how do you know that one of the homeowners wouldn’t have used the opportunity to witness to the JW when he returned? It’s always my hope a JW will leave literature or knock on my door so I can share the gospel. You robbed the homeowners of that opportunity. Rather than stealing the books, a better thing to do is pray for you neighbors and witness the truth of our religion to them in word or deed. Pray for the JW - the poor misguided soul is working so hard to please God and is totally brainwashed into thinking he is on the right path. If you see the JW - invite him in. Or at the very least, offer him a drink of water and explain you are dong so because you are a follower of Jesus Christ. Mat 25:40

So many other options rather than gathering up the books that didn’t belong to you. What if someone saw you taking them? They don’t know what the books contained. For all they know, you were just taking things that didn’t belong to you. What a bad witness of our Catholic faith. I understand why you did it - but I think it was the wrong approach.

 

[yellowbird]

Sheesh,

Please, Why did you become Catholic?

Lets stop with the innuendo and passive aggressive slams. You are crossing the line and not being charitable to good posters and good Catholics.

Now perhaps it is you who should feel some shame.

What a terribly uncharitable thing to ask. You don’t want the answer, you’re just bullying this poster. And a new Catholic at that. Shame on you.

 

[yellowbird]

Once I was back home, however, it occurred to me that this could arguable count as stealing, and that since we are not to do sin that good may come of it, I actually acted wrongly. At the moment of doing it, I was rather thinking that since the items were not in the mailboxes, and since no one had asked for them, so that they were, one might argue, just lying around the neighborhoods, I was merely gathering up some books rather than taking something that at that point actually belonged to someone. Afterwards I was not so sure.

.

One final note - the OP has no idea if someone asked for the books. When I was a JW we would often give magazines to the homeowners, then ask if they’d be interested in receiving the most recent book. If the homeowner said yes - we’d make what we called a “return visit” with the book(s). Sometimes we’d leave books without asking in advance - to friendly homeowners who accepted the magazines in the past. However, I can’t recall ever leaving a book - which is something I had to pay for, without some sort of previous interaction. Since the OP seems to have rec’d the book without previous interaction, I would guess the JW confused the addresses. Obviously the JW didn’t leave the books at every residence, otherwise it wouldn’t have been difficult for the OP to put them back when he felt guilty.

 

[MacQ]

I’m shocked at the number of posters who think it’s OK to walk around a neighborhood removing things that were placed on top of other people’s mailboxes. I read through the entire thread and I completely disagree with those posters who stated that it was left behind but the since the homeowners didn’t claim it yet, it basically was trash. (#60, #74, #82)

I suffered a bad injury early this year and my fellow parishioners left all sorts of things outside my door or in bags hanging from my mailbox. Food- books -cards - magazines - candy - even a prayer shawl the ladies knitted. I never knew the things were coming, they were just nice surprises.

Good thing none of you live in my neighborhood, I guess they all would’ve been up for grabs? Heaven forbid that YOU determined the books they left weren’t worth reading - or maybe the candy wasn’t healthy?

Regarding the JW literature specifically - as a former JW I know that the person who left the literature behind more than likely paid for it. You had no right to insert yourself and take what he left. Also, how do you know that one of the homeowners wouldn’t have used the opportunity to witness to the JW when he returned? It’s always my hope a JW will leave literature or knock on my door so I can share the gospel. You robbed the homeowners of that opportunity. Rather than stealing the books, a better thing to do is pray for you neighbors and witness the truth of our religion to them in word or deed. Pray for the JW - the poor misguided soul is working so hard to please God and is totally brainwashed into thinking he is on the right path. If you see the JW - invite him in. Or at the very least, offer him a drink of water and explain you are dong so because you are a follower of Jesus Christ. Mat 25:40

So many other options rather than gathering up the books that didn’t belong to you. What if someone saw you taking them? They don’t know what the books contained. For all they know, you were just taking things that didn’t belong to you. What a bad witness of our Catholic faith. I understand why you did it - but I think it was the wrong approach.