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stevekehl
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This is a very good, concise post about the topic at hand. Anyone interested in researching Islam and how it differs with Christianity should read the writings of Dr. Mark Gabriel. Once a professor at Al Ahzar University in Cairo with a doctorate in Islamic history he was fired, jailed and totured after questioning Islam. After fleeing Egypt he lived in South Africa and America and became a Christian. He has written books about terrorism, radical Islam, Islam and Jews and Mohammed and Jesus. I am currently reading âInside the Mind of an Islamic Terrorist,â a sober and thorough examination of the development of the radical movement, their theology, their strategy, their goals, etc⌠He uses the Koran and writings of radical leaders to support his conclusions, but is also respectful.
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elwill
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if you are not trust muslims or history , then check the history you lives within
many are converts to islam in europe these days , are they converted by sword ?
just remember the results of your research becsue may be thousand years later they will tell for your next generations that islam were spreaded by sword again
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Isa_is_Allah
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Pretty much this. You had two choices back then.
- Convert to Islam
- Pay heavy taxes
- Die
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Amir_the_Masihi
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First rule of common sense: whatâs happening now doesnât necessarily reflect what happened over 1,000 years ago!
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PiousTemplar
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Sam_777
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âŚ
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Poof
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And they think we started the crusadesâŚ
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GaryTaylor
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And the second rule is the further you look into the past, the clearer youâll see into the future.
The immediate is âalwaysâ the most difficult to clarify. Which is exactly why insanity and evil are allowed to escalate to the extent they do.
I could care less if you pray the Tree in your back yard. The simple fact is âallâ faith in this period of pronounced violence must stand against the violence. In fact they must go outside the individual protective bubble they feel safe in to do so. So yes there must an interaction of the violent and those who chose to stop its spread.
Islam has been defined as âheresyâ from day one in Christianity. The fact that Islam infiltrates Europe in a trickle effect has no bearing on the âSwordâ Wherever Islam conquers and becomes the âmajorityâ then violence becomes the calling card in order to inflict a totalitarian rule . They win by becoming the âmajorityâ. And the issues start way before this becomes a reality. As we see in Europe.
All these very good Muslims need to stop talking about how good they are, and get off their stoop and out in the real world and be part of the solution. So far the only ones I see flapping their jaws is Radical Islam. And we all know the noisey wheel gets âallâ the attention. Combine this with âlearned behaviorâ which breeds concepts like world Jihad and we have âindifferenceâ of others and the sanctity of Life.
- Convert to Islam
- Pay heavy taxes
- Die
Christianity and the Crusaders is so old worn out and tired its like a skip in a record. Please, when was the last time Christians went to war againt ANYONE? And then we all woke and once again ârealityâ was in the drivers seat.
I find it amazing, simply amazing one could mention Eurpope as a shining example. Watch how this works in the next decade. And weâll have this same conversation again.
This screaming problem isnât going to work itself out, its not going away. And you can rest assure that the violence will escalate into âpeaceâ loving areas âconstantlyâ. Preaching lofty ideas of peace is falling on deaf ears. What Peace? Wheres that exist at?
Every General in the USA is 100% against Obamaâs withdrawal plan in the middle east. And you know what I couldnât agree more. And I canât even find an American who takes any pride in this situation. Its an outright horror show.
Its not an issue of not being able to enter into rational dialogue with those who are capable. Of course that should always happen. The issue is the incapable dialogue with those who have a kill, kill, kill attitude as and when they become the majority. Because its Allahs Will for Islam to rule the world and usher in this wonderful period of exactly what???
My only question is when is JIHAD over???
Peace
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PiousTemplar
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All those happenings were from secular authorities, not sanctioned by the ChurchâŚ
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sedonaman
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I suspect this is not the same elwill weâve known in the past.
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sedonaman
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This discussion is taking on the same pattern as ones in the past:
Getting suckered into this pattern is a way to deflect criticism of Islam. IOW, you have become a victim of jihad of the pen and hence a dhimmi. The best way to avoid this is to stay on topic. Whether or not Christianity forced conversions or not has NOTHING [as in **NO THING] to do with Islamâs forcing conversions at the point of the sword. Islam must be judged on its own against an independent standard [in this case, forced conversions are bad].
- Question about Islam
- Comparison of Islam with Christianity
- Lengthy debate about Christianityâs history.
Getting suckered into this pattern is a way to deflect criticism of Islam. IOW, you have become a victim of jihad of the pen and hence a dhimmi. The best way to avoid this is to stay on topic. Whether or not Christianity forced conversions or not has NOTHING [as in **NO THING] to do with Islamâs forcing conversions at the point of the sword. Islam must be judged on its own against an independent standard [in this case, forced conversions are bad].
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Amir_the_Masihi
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Doesnât it annoy you when someone does something bad, it reflects badly on the group that that person belongs to; when someone does something good, itâs only that personâs personal achievement?!
And even if the clergy â including some Popes â have sanctioned (note: the clergy, not the Church) some less-than-holy things in its time, that doesnât change the fundamental teachings [which is what matters] of the Church. Whereas violence is interwoven into Islam like a weave, violence is an unwanted â but sometimes unavoidable â accessory to Church forced upon it for one reason or another.
Nonetheless, people should not conveniently âforgetâ some of the more audacious things men in the Church have done for which there is no valid excuse.
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sedonaman
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This isnât always the way. There are any number of stories of pagans converting because they observed how the first Christians treated even their enemies.
This has happened even in modern times. There is a biography, Godâs Samurai, about the Japanese officer who led the attack on Pearl Harbor, survived the war, and not only became a Christian but an evangelist in Japan because of the kindness Christians showed their defeated enemies.
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PiousTemplar
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I completely agree. Someone posted a question which I admire on one of my threads, I think it is completely relevant:
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LOCO
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The difference is the Church has evolved and moved on.
Today, look at Saudi Arabia and Iran and Africa where there are horrific human rights abuses being perpertrated especially against women with stonings, female circumcision and women not allowed to drive. Come on weâre not that bad
I know not being able to drive may not be a horrific abuse of human right. Seriously though, oppression has continued in other forms. If you are a Muslim in Iran, Yemen, Afghanistan or Pakistan and some areas of Africa and you want to convert to Christianity or the Flying Spaghetti Monster religion you will receive âdeath threatsâ.Not so for Christians wanting to convert to Islam. Maybe a stern lecture or two is about all we Catholics can muster up in this day and age. Maybe for the fundies at worst they banish you from the family and/or burn a quran.
The Islamisation of Europe has already occurred, while they were sleeping. You can see the stirrings now in Netherlands, France and England. The pot is boiling.
My English friend told me about a suburb near her where a man was bashed up for smoking during Ramadan and how they want to introduce âSharia Lawâ. Honestly, would you not be bothered by that? The Westminster system of justice side by side with âSharia Lawâ. The irony is that the most admired, progressive justice system may just legislate to support the most primitive âsystem of justiceâ operating side by side with the most advanced. The argument being that we must protect the religious rights of all (except Christians).
On the flipside it amazes her how people who rally in support of English âtradition, values and way of lifeâ are portrayed by the media leftist and racist.
The silent majority of Muslims who are peaceloving are nowhere to be found or heard. They donât want to speak out for fear of repercussions or they donât care or the media doesnât want the moderate Muslim on because they want to keep on perpetuating that âsiege mentalityâ.
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elwill
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i agree
i just want to say that converters to islam can happens in mass because of strenght of relegion itself , may be it was the same 1000 years ago either
so let us get the facts
if christians will leave their relegion simply to not pay jeziah , it will make me think about this weak faith of christians in the first place
actually the fact that jeziah which payed by christians were less than zakaht which payed by muslims , so itâs not logic for someone to convert to pay more money for example
so we can neglect this issue as a reason for convert
what are the other reasons
is it " no maintaining for churchs or not building new churchs" ? ( i doubt in that to be islamic by the way )
can be this to be a reason for convert ?
others will raise the issue of apostates , is that really what the OP asking about ?
where are the clear historical facts of converting people to islam by swords like these facts which known about christianity for example
where is the histotrical fatcs which fit " convert or die expression "
i think that we didnât really answered the question of OP by convinced historical facts
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aicirt
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If you came from Iran, then Iâm sure there must have been people who sounded the alarm when muslim armies marched into your country. What is the difference if Robert Spencer or Geert Wilder says the same now? They do not want what happened to Iran to happen elsewhere. Makes sense to me.Iâve read that book by Robert Spencer and I have to say - even as an ex-Muslim - that itâs full of hate. Yes, Islam can be quite militant, like the story of 2 men from Muhammadâs day who didnât join in the jihad and Allah didnât accept any of their repentance for a month (I think thatâs how the narration goes) reminds me. And I know very well of Muslim aggression; coming from Iran, my peopleâs land was one of the first places Muslim armies marched into, this battle alone shows how severe Islamic aggression can be. Nonetheless, Robert Spencer is a fear-monger who I believe takes things out of context and uses both subtle as well as overt insults in his work.
Sure, he may be driving towards the same point that we are, but that doesnât mean we - unlike him - canât be respectful, decent and modest about this subject. There are enough Robert Spencerâs and Geert Wilderâs in the world already.
Peace.
The Netherlands is known to be a pretty laid back country. Hasnât worked for them. Pim was assasinated followed by Van Goghâs nephew. Both were killed by Muslims.
Would it be an wrong assumption to think that Wilder now has a body guard, or maybe is in hiding like so many others before him?
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dzheremi
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Yes. That means you stop speculating and start listening to people who deal with primary sources. Letâs see what they have to say.
From Grypeou, Swanson and Thomas (eds) âThe encounter of Eastern Christianity with early Islamâ (Brill Academic Pub. 2006):
âAbu 'Ubayda Ibn al-Jarrah, the general who conducted the siege [of Jerusalem], offered either conversion to Islam or capitulation of the city and payment of taxes in exchange for the safe conduct of its inhabitants, or else war and, in the case of defeat, destruction.â (2006: 35)
This squares exactly with what Isa is Allah has written, and what all Christians generally know to be the case about Islam. A few additional comments could be made, like: Conversions precipitated by military generals conducting sieges upon foreign territory are INHERENTLY unacceptable and clash with the peaceful picture of Islam that you and other apologists for evil try to present favorably with reference to some lie about the âstrength of the religionâ or what the horrible, horrible Christians have done in the Crusades (literally 400 years after the event described in the chapter of this book happened). When the Christians did those things (and forever afterward), Muslims whined and cried foul and chastised us for going against our religion, as you understand it to mean that we are not allowed to fight you. Well we can certainly still fight your ignorance and misinformation, which brings me toâŚ
There is very little that I can write in response to this that would not result in an immediate infraction for a severe lack of charity, so I will try to control the passions by instead simply pointing out that according to your own book, in Surat 9 (al-Tawba) the jaziyah is instructed to be paid âin acknowledgment of superiority and âŚ] in a state of subjectionâ. If you think that not wanting to be treated this way points to weak faith among the Christians, than I can only request that you be fair and apply the same to your own community whenever you hear a fellow Muslim complaining about America and Israel and all the daily humiliations suffered by Palestinians or Iraqis or whoever at the hands of foreign powers, which by the way does not even carry this dimension of intentional degradation prescribed in holy texts, so really what the Muslims do is much, much worse. And now you call us weak for what? For not responding as Muslims do by beheading or blowing you guys up? Again, when Christians have behaved like that, you IMMEDIATELY and forever cried foul and expended no small amount of energy and time demonizing us and using that experience as fuel for future jihad. So enough out of you. I refuse to listen to any more Muslim whining and hypocrisy.
Oh but it is very much Islamic. In fact, it is the very first condition placed upon the Christians by the Pact of 'Umar, often pointed to by Muslims and their sycophants as a great example of Muslim progressiveness and charity (barf), undertaken following the aforementioned siege of Jerusalem. It reads, and I quote:
âWe shall not build, in our cities or in their neighborhood, new monasteries, Churches, convents, or monksâ cells, nor shall we repair, by day or by night, such of them as fall in ruins or are situated in the quarters of the Muslims.â (source)
How could it not be? Are you so bereft of basic human emotions and intellect that you cannot place yourself in the shoes of another people and think about how you would feel if this condition was placed against your own community? How did you feel about the Swiss minaret ban, Elwill? Probably not too happy. And this was just a ban on the construction of a certain part of the mosque, not a ban on the construction of mosques outright, nor a ban on their restoration should they fall into ruins. I bet you still saw it as unfair and discriminatory. Again, it is but a taste of what we Christians and our brothers have lived under for CENTURIES under your god-forsaken religion. It is still virtually impossible to build or repair a church or monastery in your home country of Egypt, by the way. The authorization needed (which is not needed to build or repair a mosque, of course) was supposed to have been turned over to the presidential office after some of the recent Coptic protests (I think it was the ones following the Muslim attack on the Abu Fana monastery, but I canât remember exactly), but from what my friends in Egypt tell me it is still in the hands of local governments, which of course simply do not grant such things if they donât want to. Again, if you had to face this yourselves, there is no doubt that you would find it all very discouraging to be discriminated against in such a way.
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dzheremi
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A few of the many, many, many (many!) examples that could be cited include:
- The âdevsirmeâ system during the Ottoman period in the Balkans, starting in the 15th century, wherein non-Muslim children were taken on large scale as levies to enrich the janissaries, leading to the large-scale destruction of native Christian communities in the Balkans. (here)
- The âAllahdad incidentâ in Mashhad, Iran in 1839, in which an entire Jewish community was forced to convert to Islam (here)
- The 2003 attack on the Abu Fana monastery in Egypt (ostensibly a âland disputeâ) included kidnapping and torture of the monks, who were told by their captors to renounce Christianity and embrace Islam, and were forced to spit on the cross. (here)
- Journalist Steve Centanni and his cameraman Olaf Wiig were kidnapped in Palestine in 2006 and forced to convert to Islam. (here)
- The Mandaeans endure forced conversions in Iraq. (here)
- In Maluku region, Indonesia, Christians report forced conversion, and regularly have to switch religions to protect themselves from Muslim gangs. (here)
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