Did James White win the debate?

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On James White’s web site, he is advertising’s a number of debates against Tim Staples, Patrick Madrid and Mitch Pacwa.

Presumably, he believes he ‘won’ these debates, at one point noting that St. Joseph’s Communications would not want Catholics to hear them. I did notice that the debates against Mr. White are not for sale there or on Catholic Answers (except one with Jimmy Akin).

Question: Would it be worth procuring the debates against Staples, Madrid and Pacwa from James White’s web site? Or would it be a disappointment, ie, did the Catholic side not do so well?

Ref: aomin.org/bookstore/shop.html?shop=audio
 
Marian doctrines 1996, winner White (vs. Matatics)
sola scriptura 1996, winner Staples (vs. White)
sola scriptura 1997, winner Matatics (vs. White)
papacy 1998, winner White (vs. Pacwa)
eucharist 1999, winner Sungenis (vs. White)
justification May 2000, winner Sungenis (vs. White)
papacy July 2000, winner White (vs. Staples)
papacy Oct 2000, winner Sungenis (vs. White)
sola scriptura 2000, winner White (vs. Pacwa)
purgatory 2001, winner White (vs. Stravinskas)
saints 2002, winner Madrid (vs. White)
OT canon 2003, winner Michuta (vs. White)
eucharist 2003 (again), winner Sungenis (vs. White)

If you wanna just get the debates where White lost, there you go, in my objective carefully scored opinion 😃

And of course Akin won his two debates with White: eternal security and BAM (1995) radio debates so those are safe. And my opinion of the older debates here.

So get the Sungenis ones from CAI, get the Akin ones from CA, and get the Hahn ones from St. Joe Comm. And you’ll have to get the others from White, or send me an Email.

Phil P
 
there are no winners in debates

both sides talk past each other and play a giant game of nigyysob

they do no good whatsoever … imo 🙂
 
<< there are no winners in debates >>

Battle for Earth debate, 4.5 billion B.C., winner Satan (vs. God)

Remember just because you win a debate doesn’t mean you are right. Jesus had a good cross-exam in Matthew 4 though. :eek:

Phil P
 
PhilVaz said:
Marian doctrines 1996, winner White (vs. Matatics)
sola scriptura 1996, winner Staples (vs. White)
sola scriptura 1997, winner Matatics (vs. White)
papacy 1998, winner White (vs. Pacwa)
eucharist 1999, winner Sungenis (vs. White)
justification May 2000, winner Sungenis (vs. White)
papacy July 2000, winner White (vs. Staples)
papacy Oct 2000, winner Sungenis (vs. White)
sola scriptura 2000, winner White (vs. Pacwa)
purgatory 2001, winner White (vs. Stravinskas)
saints 2002, winner Madrid (vs. White)
OT canon 2003, winner Michuta (vs. White)
eucharist 2003 (again), winner Sungenis (vs. White)

If you wanna just get the debates where White lost, there you go, in my objective carefully scored opinion 😃

And of course Akin won his two debates with White: eternal security and BAM (1995) radio debates so those are safe. And my opinion of the older debates here.

So get the Sungenis ones from CAI, get the Akin ones from CA, and get the Hahn ones from St. Joe Comm. And you’ll have to get the others from White, or send me an Email.

Phil P
Click to expand...
thanks … i’ll check them out

at least Staples could kick White’s butt if he can’t out-debate him … not a bad trait to have
 
JohnPaul said:
On James White’s web site, he is advertising’s a number of debates against Tim Staples, Patrick Madrid and Mitch Pacwa.

Presumably, he believes he ‘won’ these debates, at one point noting that St. Joseph’s Communications would not want Catholics to hear them. I did notice that the debates against Mr. White are not for sale there or on Catholic Answers (except one with Jimmy Akin).

Question: Would it be worth procuring the debates against Staples, Madrid and Pacwa from James White’s web site? Or would it be a disappointment, ie, did the Catholic side not do so well?

Ref: aomin.org/bookstore/shop.html?shop=audio
Click to expand...
Madrid happily notes that his sola scriptura debate is one of his best sellers. I don’t think HE thinks he lost, and neither do I.
 
JohnPaul said:
On James White’s web site, he is advertising’s a number of debates against Tim Staples, Patrick Madrid and Mitch Pacwa.

Presumably, he believes he ‘won’ these debates, at one point noting that St. Joseph’s Communications would not want Catholics to hear them. I did notice that the debates against Mr. White are not for sale there or on Catholic Answers (except one with Jimmy Akin).

Question: Would it be worth procuring the debates against Staples, Madrid and Pacwa from James White’s web site? Or would it be a disappointment, ie, did the Catholic side not do so well?

Ref: aomin.org/bookstore/shop.html?shop=audio
Click to expand...
Hello JP,
Code: 
Many blessings to you and your family. I've always been suspect of debates. For one thing unless there is an objective third party, following a criteria and making a final determination, claims of wining or loosing by any of the parties involved should be taken with a grain of salt (After all which professional apologist will ever admit that they lost a debate? It is not good for business). In the case of others making these claims...well the claim can be made their decision might influence their objectivity.
Second what does it means to “win” a debate? Does it means that the arguments of one side are stronger than the arguments of the other side, or does it mean that one side was not able to defend his/hers arguments better than the other side? Notice that the second one has nothing to do with who is right or wrong.

Personally, I rather read or listen to what one side has to say and them do my own study, against scripture/church documents/magisterium this has work quite well in my ministry. (And the fact that I live in Baltimore and have one of the best Theological Libraries in the East coast, the The Knoch library at St Marie’s Seminary, to my disposal.

In His love,

A Catholic Deacon
 
Catholicdeacon said:
Hello JP,

Many blessings to you and your family. I’ve always been suspect of debates. For one thing unless there is an objective third party, following a criteria and making a final determination, claims of wining or loosing by any of the parties involved should be taken with a grain of salt (After all which professional apologist will ever admit that they lost a debate? It is not good for business). In the case of others making these claims…well the claim can be made their decision might influence their objectivity.

Second what does it means to “win” a debate? Does it means that the arguments of one side are stronger than the arguments of the other side, or does it mean that one side was not able to defend his/hers arguments better than the other side? Notice that the second one has nothing to do with who is right or wrong.

Personally, I rather read or listen to what one side has to say and them do my own study, against scripture/church documents/magisterium this has work quite well in my ministry. (And the fact that I live in Baltimore and have one of the best Theological Libraries in the East coast, the The Knoch library at St Marie’s Seminary, to my disposal.

In His love,

A Catholic Deacon
Click to expand...
I agree. A huge part of the reason I came to faith was due in part to Dave Hunts six tape debate series with Gerry Matatics in which he was proudly selling on His website. A Protestant friend let me borrowit for a few weeks. Dave Hunt in my opinion did a horrible job while Matatics arguements were clear, conscise and artilculate. He was also pretty charitable and it really impacted me in the right direction.
 
Randy_Carson said:
Madrid happily notes that his sola scriptura debate is one of his best sellers. I don’t think HE thinks he lost, and neither do I.
Click to expand...
I think Pat won in the Sola Scriptura debate White did make a case but it fell apart with Madrid’s answers.
 
do you have to buy the debates in order to listen to them or is there is a way to listen to them for free.:cool: V. Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed are thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
R. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.🙂
 
Indeed there are no winners, but there are people who change their minds about the topic-for or against. I listened to James White in two debates. Both times he came off as less than convincing. At one point he said, in exasperation, that if we believed the Catholic position we would all think alike. As if think differently about God and his saving grace is what we should be doing. In sum, James White sounds like the type of school teacher who has to be right and have the last word.
 
The purpose of debate, or dialogue, is not for one party or the other to win - one hopes that through debate the truth wins.

Debate might not be all that wonderfull - but it sure beats war. Now, do you think we’d have all this terrorism going on if we could buy similar recorded debates between the pope and the various Islamic leaders?

The results of a debate cannot be measured immediately after the debate. But rather the next time the topic is debated. When a criticism was made in the previous debate is no longer used in subsequent debates - that criticism was deemed ineffective.

Eventually there may be certain entire topics that a debater will refuse to debate over. He may preserve his pride with some excuse - but you know that he knows he lost.

And if Americans followed these debates like they follow NASCAR or NFL, we’d all win!!!
 
[sign]:rolleyes: Sarcasm alert!! :rolleyes: Sarcasm alert!!!:rolleyes:**** [/sign]

As far as I can tell, James White always wins everything.He wins every debate he takes part in.
He wins at Monopoly, and is a grand champion at Scrabble.
Every time James White goes to the grocery store, he buys winning lottery tickets from the special “James White is a Winner!!!” lottery ticket counter.
James White has won 53,283 trips around the world, the Irish Sweepstakes 982 times, and he never has to buy a car, because he wins a new one from “Win a New Car” drawings at local businesses every 3 months to 100 days.
James White actually won his wife in a poker game many years ago. She has been marking the cards for his opponents to get “un-won” ever since, but James White is such a winner that he wins, even when everybody else is cheating.

Other than that, http://bestsmileys.com/clueless/4.gifhe doesn’t do much, but hey!! Nobody’s perfect!!

[sign]

**:rolleyes:Sarcasm over!! :rolleyes: Sarcasm over!!! :rolleyes: Sarcasm over!!!:rolleyes: **
[/sign]
 
Years ago, in the days of BBS and FidoNet, I encountered James White many, many times. While I found him knowledgeable about the Fathers (in many cases) when certain points of doctrine would come up – all reasonable and rational discussion would go out the window and the ad hominim attacks would begin. And I wasn’t even a Catholic then!

To paraphrase Shakespeare “Methinks Mr. White doth protest too much”!

I don’t find him credible at all.
 
Catholicdeacon said:
Hello JP,
Code: 
Many blessings to you and your family. I've always been suspect of debates. For one thing unless there is an objective third party, following a criteria and making a final determination, claims of wining or loosing by any of the parties involved should be taken with a grain of salt (After all which professional apologist will ever admit that they lost a debate? It is not good for business). In the case of others making these claims...well the claim can be made their decision might influence their objectivity.
Second what does it means to “win” a debate? Does it means that the arguments of one side are stronger than the arguments of the other side, or does it mean that one side was not able to defend his/hers arguments better than the other side? Notice that the second one has nothing to do with who is right or wrong.

Personally, I rather read or listen to what one side has to say and them do my own study, against scripture/church documents/magisterium this has work quite well in my ministry. (And the fact that I live in Baltimore and have one of the best Theological Libraries in the East coast, the The Knoch library at St Marie’s Seminary, to my disposal.

In His love,

A Catholic Deacon
Click to expand...
Blessing to you all my brothers and sisters. Another point I would like to make is that I find claims of “I have done X number of debates” amusing. Again without an objective third party to make a decision these claims are rather vacuous. Many years ago I used to play tournament chess, I even went to a few national level tournaments. I have played chess against some of the best Grandmasters and international Masters in the US. Did that made me a Grandmaster? Even and advanced player? Nope, I just played against them they cleaned the board with me every time. (At least I can also claim I never lost a game to Gary Kasparov or Bobby Fisher:thumbsup: 😃 )

In His love…

A Catholic Deacon
 
PhilVaz said:
Marian doctrines 1996, winner White (vs. Matatics)
sola scriptura 1996, winner Staples (vs. White)
sola scriptura 1997, winner Matatics (vs. White)
papacy 1998, winner White (vs. Pacwa)
eucharist 1999, winner Sungenis (vs. White)
justification May 2000, winner Sungenis (vs. White)
papacy July 2000, winner White (vs. Staples)
papacy Oct 2000, winner Sungenis (vs. White)
sola scriptura 2000, winner White (vs. Pacwa)
purgatory 2001, winner White (vs. Stravinskas)
saints 2002, winner Madrid (vs. White)
OT canon 2003, winner Michuta (vs. White)
eucharist 2003 (again), winner Sungenis (vs. White)

If you wanna just get the debates where White lost, there you go, in my objective carefully scored opinion 😃

And of course Akin won his two debates with White: eternal security and BAM (1995) radio debates so those are safe. And my opinion of the older debates here.

So get the Sungenis ones from CAI, get the Akin ones from CA, and get the Hahn ones from St. Joe Comm. And you’ll have to get the others from White, or send me an Email.

Phil P
Click to expand...
What debates has Hahn done?
 
PhilVaz said:
<< there are no winners in debates >>

Battle for Earth debate, 4.5 billion B.C., winner Satan (vs. God)

Remember just because you win a debate doesn’t mean you are right. Jesus had a good cross-exam in Matthew 4 though. :eek:

Phil P
Click to expand...
Don’t you mean 3000BC? 🙂
 
<< What debates has Hahn done? >>

Hahn debates:

vs. Robert Knudsen (authority and salvation) 1989
vs. Ken Samples / CRI B.A.M. 1990
vs. Robert Bowman (Justification, part of "The Ultimate Challenge" set) 1997
vs. anyone every day on the phone since at least 1986

Bonus Trivia: Hahn moderated the first Matatics vs. White debate on the papacy (Dec 1990). 👍

vs. White (sola scriptura, 2022 AD), Hahn loses
vs. White (papacy, 2023 AD), Hahn loses
vs. White (Marian doctrines, 2024 AD), Hahn loses
Hahn is now Protestant. Then
vs. White (infant baptism, 2025 AD), Hahn loses
vs. White (predestination, 2028 AD), Hahn loses

Hahn becomes Reformed Baptist, 2033 AD. Re-writes all his books, re-records all his tapes, but stays with same publisher (Doubleday). :confused: Joins Alpha/Omega, replaces Rich Pierce. Just kidding 😃

<< Don’t you mean 3000BC? 🙂 >>

Oops, that’s old earther: 150,000 B.C. with first homo sapiens.
young earther: 6000 B.C. with Adam.
Middle Earther: Gandolf defeats Frodo 45,000 A.D., sorry I don’t know the characters that well.

Phil P
 
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