Did Jesus abolish Jewish sacrifice ?

[pauliztarza]

This seems rather hostile. Have you thoughtfully researched Catholic teaching on the Mass? You seem to think we believe things we do not believe.

Well since none of us has been there, we need to believe some authority now.

And that is the core of my point - do you accept instruction from bona-fide authority ?

Or someone who is so misguided, fully believing the misconception ?

I did - did you - thoroughly examine personal example of those who told you Jesus is bread and wine after consecration at the altar ?

It is like I tell you to walk out the door. If you listen and do - you might be stepping in a beautiful valley for ever - or - the abyss.

That’s it - know the people you trust. And examine them again - if you have to.

Ask them what really happened in any event from life of Jesus - then find out for yourself - from another - independent - source.

But trusting one source and believing without questioning - puts you in the walking-out-the-door situation.

See for yourself - miracles performed by our beloved master Christ, love for us so vast He gave up his life, and find out - is something really His command or - else.

And if you had a girl, and say you are departing. But you want her to have something from you, say a necklace. You give her a necklace to remember you**. And you leave. But somehow, she starts believing necklace is reallyyou - your eyes, hands, body - and she starts having relationship with the necklace.You show up afterwards and see her walking with the necklace, talking tot he necklace, sleeping with the necklace and she refuses to admit you are now - you. What would you decide your girl has become ?

Looking forward to your next post.

 

[pauliztarza]

Both the Scriptures and the Church tell us this.

I know what the RC Church says.
I also know what the Scripture says.

How come we came up with two different conclusions ?

It must be that one of us believed wrong authority.

 

[pauliztarza]

The Sacrafice of the Mass is the one self same sacrafice the Christ wrought upon the cross at calvary. We do this because…JESUS SAID TO DO SO!

If the sacrifice of bread and vine at the mass was the one self same sacrifice of Christ, then God would keep accepting Jewish offerings like He did before and - there would be no reason for Christ to die. But He did die.

 

[mercygate]

Well since none of us has been there, we need to believe some authority now.

And that is the core of my point - do you accept instruction from bona-fide authority ?

Or someone who is so misguided, fully believing the misconception ?

I did - did you - thoroughly examine personal example of those who told you Jesus is bread and wine after consecration at the altar ?

As a person trained in a Protestant seminary, I assure you that I have examined the entire issue up one side and down the other, and the ONLY position that makes sense historically, theologically, sacramentally and mystically is the position of the Catholic and Orthodox traditions that acknowledge the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

It is like I tell you to walk out the door. If you listen and do - you might be stepping in a beautiful valley for ever - or - the abyss.

That’s it - know the people you trust. And examine them again - if you have to.

Ask them what really happened in any event from life of Jesus - then find out for yourself - from another - independent - source.

But trusting one source and believing without questioning - puts you in the walking-out-the-door situation.

I came from “out the door.” It is actually because of studying history and doctrine that I came to understand where authority lay. As a Catholic, I very much know whom to trust. As a Catholic, I know from Whom the teaching comes.

See for yourself - miracles performed by our beloved master Christ, love for us so vast He gave up his life, and find out - is something really His command or - else.

“Do this in remembrance of me.” Yup. Seems like a command. “If you love me, keep my commandments.” Yup. Seems like a command.

And if you had a girl, and say you are departing. But you want her to have something from you, say a necklace. You give her a necklace to remember you. And you leave. But somehow, she starts believing necklace is reallyyou - your eyes, hands, body - and she starts having relationship with the necklace.You show up afterwards and see her walking with the necklace, talking tot he necklace, sleeping with the necklace and she refuses to admit you are now - you. What would you decide your girl has become ?

Well, I am not leaving my daughter my promise to be “with her always.” A string of pearls is not “living bread come down from heaven.” I am not leaving her a promise that “This is my Body.” I am not promising to send my Spirit to guide her into all the truth.

You did not comment on posts above that the Sacrifice of the Mass is not a repetition of the Sacrifice of Calvary but that it is a participation in the Supper of the Lamb, Christ’s eternal Sacrifice to the Father, with Christ Himself, our great high priest.

This understanding seems to be quite different from what you have told us Catholics believe and do in the Mass.

And, of course, that priest was right. Blood sacrifices have been obviated by the Perfect Sacrifice of Christ on Calvary. The bloodless sacrifice of the Mass is that of the “lamb standing as if it had been slain.” This is beautifully laid out in the Epistle to the Hebrews. Hebrews, along with the Gospel according to St. John and Revelation, are the three most Eucharistic books of the New Testament.

What do you mean by “sacrifice” when you say God does not accept sacrifice?

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

Well, what I mean is : After God sacrificed Jesus, all other sacrifices - including animals, flowers, chanting, bread - are not accepted by Him any more.

And people keep sacrifiicng - to no avail. LIke in the mass. You have the altar - sacrificial tool. Tabernacle - place where sacrifice is kept. That is not accepted by God anymore.

I don’t know about other “people”, but in the Mass there are no new sacrifices. It is the Sacrifice. As in, the one and final Sacrifice of Jesus Christ. His died only once but His* Sacrifice *is eternal, and we Catholics (and Orthodox) are re-presenting that same Sacrifice to God. Just as it was accepted 2000 years ago, it is accepted now.

 

[mercygate]

But that is simply not true. God sacrificed Jesus and after that, He does not accept any other sacrifice - blood or not blood.

Right. There is only one Sacrifice: the Sacrifice of Christ Himself. Because we are limited by time and space, and because He commissioned the Church to take the Gospel to all nations until He comes again, He promised to be with us “all days,” and He left us the Eucharist – a sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving – as a means of being Present to us – to the whole Church: with Him, in Him, through Him.

If it was true -that God accept bread and wine sacrificed by the priest - then Jesus would have died in vain - and that is not true either.

I do not understand what you mean by suggesting that the Eucharist means Christ would have died in vain.

The Epistle to the Hebrews speaks of Christ as “a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek” – the priesthood of Melchizedek is intimately related to the promise of Abraham, and it is a thank-offering of bread and wine. It is because the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ that the Eucharist is not just an endless repetition of sacrifice after sacrifice; this is the fulfillment of all sacrifices because He is Present in it as both priest and victim.

 

[Reuben_J]

But that is simply not true. God sacrificed Jesus and after that, He does not accept any other sacrifice - blood or not blood.

If it was true -that God accept bread and wine sacrificed by the priest - then Jesus would have died in vain - and that is not true either.

We would not like Jesus to die in vain. A sacrifice was made at Calvary once and for all times.

Then that’s should be the end of the story - everyone saved and no sins ever committed again.

Unfortunately, it does not go that way. Human minds are forgetful. We forget this great deed. We sin many times over, again and again.

The Holy Mass is a grace. If anyone does not appreciate this grace, by all means do so. But for those who accept it and thrive in its saving grace, nobody should stop them. Why should anybody? The mass has been proven many times to be a grace that keeps Christians holy and to help us in living a life of grace!

Well, human are forgetful, we need to be reminded again and again about Calvary. There is surely nothing wrong with that.

That’s what the mass is all about. Rather than makes God a liar, the mass actually proclaims God’s truth.

 

[pauliztarza]

We would not like Jesus to die in vain. A sacrifice was made at Calvary once and for all times.

Then that’s should be the end of the story - everyone saved and no sins ever committed again.

Unfortunately, it does not go that way. Human minds are forgetful. We forget this great deed. We sin many times over, again and again.

The Holy Mass is a grace. If anyone does not appreciate this grace, by all means do so. But for those who accept it and thrive in its saving grace, nobody should stop them. Why should anybody? The mass has been proven many times to be a grace that keeps Christians holy and to help us in living a life of grace!

Well, human are forgetful, we need to be reminded again and again about Calvary. There is surely nothing wrong with that.

That’s what the mass is all about. Rather than makes God a liar, the mass actually proclaims God’s truth.

No. Person doesn’t sin after receiving Jesus as savior. If you do, then you didn’t receive Him as savior.

And no other sacrifice is accepted or your sin. If it is, Jesus wouldn’t have to die.

 

[MH84]

Paul, what did St. Paul mean in 1 Corinithians 17? What do you think the “one bread” is?

No. Person doesn’t sin after receiving Jesus as savior. If you do, then you didn’t receive Him as savior.

Who taught you this? Are you saying that you are not a sinner? This is dangerous thinking if you ask me.

 

[pauliztarza]

As a person trained in a Protestant seminary, I assure you that I have examined the entire issue up one side and down the other, and the ONLY position that makes sense historically, theologically, sacramentally and mystically is the position of the Catholic and Orthodox traditions that acknowledge the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.
I came from “out the door.” It is actually because of studying history and doctrine that I came to understand where authority lay. As a Catholic, I very much know whom to trust. As a Catholic, I know from Whom the teaching comes.

“Do this in remembrance of me.” Yup. Seems like a command. “If you love me, keep my commandments.” Yup. Seems like a command.

Well, I am not leaving my daughter my promise to be “with her always.” A string of pearls is not “living bread come down from heaven.” I am not leaving her a promise that “This is my Body.” I am not promising to send my Spirit to guide her into all the truth.

You did not comment on posts above that the Sacrifice of the Mass is not a repetition of the Sacrifice of Calvary but that it is a participation in the Supper of the Lamb, Christ’s eternal Sacrifice to the Father, with Christ Himself, our great high priest.

This understanding seems to be quite different from what you have told us Catholics believe and do in the Mass.

And, of course, that priest was right. Blood sacrifices have been obviated by the Perfect Sacrifice of Christ on Calvary. The bloodless sacrifice of the Mass is that of the “lamb standing as if it had been slain.” This is beautifully laid out in the Epistle to the Hebrews. Hebrews, along with the Gospel according to St. John and Revelation, are the three most Eucharistic books of the New Testament.

What do you mean by “sacrifice” when you say God does not accept sacrifice?

This is your saying :

“You did not comment on posts above that the Sacrifice of the Mass is not a repetition of the Sacrifice of Calvary but that it is a participation in the Supper of the Lamb, Christ’s eternal Sacrifice to the Father, with Christ Himself, our great high priest.”

If it is only “participation”, why does the priest say “Body of Christ” while raising the “host” (Latin - hostia = sacrifice) ? Because he - priest means it, believes it and affirms it - priest just sacrificed “jesus” at the altar and eats “him” with the rest of the believers.

No my friend.No. They who participate in the sacrifice believe that the thing sacrificed at the altar is atonement for their sins. And no theology or doctrine can help denying this simple fact.

And that belief is wrong.

Also, this post is my final say on the subject.

No point further discussing.

 

[pauliztarza]

Paul, what did St. Paul mean in 1 Corinithians 17? What do you think the “one bread” is?

Who taught you this? Are you saying that you are not a sinner? This is dangerous thinking if you ask me.

No. It means that you simply do not sin after repenting and receiving Jesus.

Why would you insult somebody who laid His life for your salvation ? Sin is simply not an option, out of concept, not even close to being committed - after receiving Jesus.

 

[MH84]

You have no idea how to answer this do you?

Paul, what did St. Paul mean in 1 Corinithians 17? What do you think the “one bread” is?

Or post #30?

Paulistarza: Why would you insult somebody who laid His life for your salvation ? Sin is simply not an option, out of concept, not even close to being committed - after receiving Jesus.

Just because it is wrong to sin, especially after the sacrifice of Jesus, doesnt mean it is not the reality in the fallen human race.

 

[pauliztarza]

I don’t know about other “people”, but in the Mass there are no new sacrifices. It is the Sacrifice. As in, the one and final Sacrifice of Jesus Christ. His died only once but His* Sacrifice *is eternal, and we Catholics (and Orthodox) are re-presenting that same Sacrifice to God. Just as it was accepted 2000 years ago, it is accepted now.

God doesn’t accept those sacrifices - re-presented,as you say. Why ? Think of it this way : say you have a child. And this child is sentenced to death.To satisfy justice, you take the electric chair instead. After being released, and his parent dead, child keeps making sacrifices to his parent.

To what avail ? Child is alive. Death is beaten by - parent’s sacrifice.

 

[pauliztarza]

You have no idea how to answer this do you? Or post #30?

Just because it is wrong to sin, especially after the sacrifice of Jesus, doesnt mean it is not the reality in the fallen human race.

Sin = cutting relationship with God (turning off the light) and spitting on the sacrifice of Jesus.

If person “sins from time to time” and is prone to “fall here and there”, the person of Jesus Christ did not settle in this person’s heart.

I need to look Paul’s verse and I shall be coming back to tell you.

 

[MH84]

If person “sins from time to time” and is prone to “fall here and there”, the person of Jesus Christ did not settle in this person’s heart.

This is a good point. But, then we are all guilty of not letting Jesus abode within us, arent we? It is impossible for any man to not sin, unless he was incapable eg. mental illness. Even the canonised saints were sinners in some ways.

I don’t know, maybe you are right.

 

[pauliztarza]

Right. There is only one Sacrifice: the Sacrifice of Christ Himself. Because we are limited by time and space, and because He commissioned the Church to take the Gospel to all nations until He comes again, He promised to be with us “all days,” and He left us the Eucharist – a sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving – as a means of being Present to us – to the whole Church: with Him, in Him, through Him.

I do not understand what you mean by suggesting that the Eucharist means Christ would have died in vain.

The Epistle to the Hebrews speaks of Christ as “a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek” – the priesthood of Melchizedek is intimately related to the promise of Abraham, and it is a thank-offering of bread and wine. It is because the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ that the Eucharist is not just an endless repetition of sacrifice after sacrifice; this is the fulfillment of all sacrifices because He is Present in it as both priest and victim.

This exchange at the forum is really good for me because it sharpens my mind.

Listen, bread Jesus left is one thing (1) and his body hanging on the cross is another (2).

Bread versus body on the cross.

If someone says bread (1) is the body (2) , then I just don’t have any option but not to believe. Because my master Christ laid Himself on the cross, was spitted on and much more for me. And He didn’t say make people believe bread is the body, but do this pasha in remembrance of me.

Clear as a summer sunshine day.

In order to deny this, someone making attempt must either lie or have false belief.

I believe those who do deny this at this forum, have false belief. And those who instructed performing bread sacrifices had some other plan on mind. Like unified religion in the country and visible signs of spiritual power. But that is - sin.

 

[mercygate]

This is your saying :

“You did not comment on posts above that the Sacrifice of the Mass is not a repetition of the Sacrifice of Calvary but that it is a participation in the Supper of the Lamb, Christ’s eternal Sacrifice to the Father, with Christ Himself, our great high priest.”

If it is** only “participation”,** why does the priest say “Body of Christ” while raising the “host” (Latin - hostia = sacrifice) ? Because he - priest means it, believes it and affirms it - priest just sacrificed “jesus” at the altar and eats “him” with the rest of the believers.

Why the quotation marks around “participation”? Is it your understanding that “participation” means merely emblematic or symbolic? We believe that the veil of time and space are torn in the Sacrifice of the Mass, that we really, truly are present to the Heavenly Sacrifice.

No my friend.No. They who participate in the sacrifice believe that the thing sacrificed at the altar is atonement for their sins. And no theology or doctrine can help denying this simple fact.

You bet! Catholic theology and spirituality definitely affirm that this IS the Body of Christ. We DO believe it. Christ IS the atonement for our sins. You seem to confuse the bread of the Mass with the Body of Christ. When the priest elevates the consecrated host, it is no longer bread. It is Christ Himself.

And that belief is wrong.

It would be more accurate to say that your understanding of what we believe is inadequate. Your statements here indicate that you think eternity is a really long time line where events “happen” sequentially as they do here on earth. You seem to object to the idea that Christ is truly present in the Eucharist, and you seem to believe that the Sacrifice of the Mass denies the Atonement. Certainly for the first 1500 years of Christianity, nobody in the Church ever believed any such thing.

I don’t know where you picked up your theology but it stands counter to Scripture, to the belief of the early Church, and to the constant teaching of the Christian faith for two thousand years.

Also, this post is my final say on the subject.

No point further discussing.

OK. We’ll still be here if you change your mind.

 

[pauliztarza]

This is a good point. But, then we are all guilty of not letting Jesus abode within us, arent we? It is impossible for any man to not sin, unless he was incapable eg. mental illness. Even the canonised saints were sinners in some ways.

I don’t know, maybe you are right.

True! Well said! You say that those who do not let Jesus abide within their hearts are condemned already by not doing so.

That is exactly what Paul talks somewhere and that is the core of God’s salvation plan

Repent and accept Jesus as your spiritual and life Master.

If you were on the team with our beloved Lord and He would ask like He did “Who do you believe I am ?”, I say you would be like Peter.

“Blessed are thou, Peter, for this was proclaimed to you by my Father who is in Heaven.”

Peter said “You are Christ, son of a living God!”

Tears always come down my eyes when I remember that someone could love this wretched person like me so much, to go to death for me, instead of me.

People can give you gifts, when they love you. But what is the gift of highest love ? Life. And God did exactly that. He said I love you that much that I shall die instead of you. And He did it.No greater love than that.

Thank you, Father,

 

[MH84]

Why don’t you agree that St. Paul was talking about the Eucharist in 1 Corinthians 10? What is the one bread that the followers of Christ all partake of?

 

[mercygate]

This exchange at the forum is really good for me because it sharpens my mind.

Listen, bread Jesus left is one thing (1) and his body hanging on the cross is another (2).

Bread versus body on the cross.

**“Versus?” **Jesus Himself took bread and said “this is my body.” In Christ, there is no versus. The form of bread remains, but the reality of Christ overtakes it, subsumes it. The entire Passion is present in it. There is no “versus” – there is only the promise of Christ.

If someone says bread (1) is the body (2) , then I just don’t have any option but not to believe.

Since Jesus said it, WE believe it.

Because my master Christ laid Himself on the cross, was spitted on and much more for me. And He didn’t say make people believe bread is the body, but do this pasha in remembrance of me.

We absolutely “do this” in remembrance of Him.

Clear as a summer sunshine day.

Apparently, it is not “clear as a summer sunshine day” to you.

In order to deny this, someone making attempt must either lie or have false belief.

Only to a spiritually dead, post-“enlightenment”, totally rationalist, materialist, earth-bound world is the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist a false belief.

I believe those who do deny this at this forum, have false belief.

You have made that quite clear.

And those who instructed performing bread sacrifices had some other plan on mind. Like unified religion in the country and visible signs of spiritual power. But that is - sin.

Now you’re headed toward some millennialist tangent that has nothing to do with this thread.