Did Jesus also give the "keys" to the other apostles?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Senyorico
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
It would seem more the case that this variant reading – which wasn’t held to be a “Christian” reading until after 1500 years of the Church’s existence! – seems to be making a claim to novel and heretofore hidden knowledge!
Again, it isn’t a novel reading when the text links the keys to loosing and binding of sins, and when the early Church Fathers acknowledge this in their writings. What seems novel is trying to use this to say that Peter’s successors, by virtue of the office of the keys, have the right to declare doctrines that were not revealed by Christ or his apostles, rather than its original meaning in the context of forgiving or retaining sins.
 
Last edited:
Again, it isn’t a novel reading when the text links the keys to loosing and binding of sins
Except that it doesn’t. There’s no “of sins” there except in your interpretation.
the early Church Fathers acknowledge this in their writings
No – the ECFs note that the link is Peter, himself, in his person! You seem to keep on forgetting that!
What seems novel is trying to use this to say that Peter’s successors, by virtue of the office of the keys, have the right to declare doctrines that were not revealed by Christ or his apostles
Except that this isn’t what the Catholic Church claims! We don’t invent “new doctrine”!
rather than its original meaning in the context of forgiving or retaining sins.
Again, if you can find an instance of the notion of divine forgiveness of sin through apostolic action in Mt 16 or 18, please cite it.
 
Except that it doesn’t. There’s no “of sins” there except in your interpretation.
Again, you are ignoring the other passages of scripture we discussed where loosing and binding are defined.
No – the ECFs note that the link is Peter , himself, in his person! You seem to keep on forgetting that!
Not forgetting it. Ignoring the premise because they say Peter first, followed by the apostles.
Except that this isn’t what the Catholic Church claims! We don’t invent “new doctrine”!
I reject this premise as well.
Again, if you can find an instance of the notion of divine forgiveness of sin through apostolic action in Mt 16 or 18, please cite it.
Matthew 16:19, Matthew 18:18; John 20:23 as previously discussed.
 
Last edited:
Again, you are ignoring the other passages of scripture we discussed where loosing and binding are defined.
There are precisely two: Mt 16:19 and Mt 18:19. Other passages talk about the forgiveness of sin (namely, John 20:22), but not in terms of “binding and loosing,” as such.
Not forgetting it. Ignoring the premise because they say Peter first, followed by the apostles.
Really? Let’s look, again:
Upon [Peter] being one He builds His Church

although He gives to all the Apostles an equal power, …in order to manifest unity, He has by His own authority so placed the source of the same unity, as to begin from [Peter].
So… Peter. Not “Peter and apostles” as source of unity.

Why this entrenched desire to deny what’s being said about Peter – by Jesus, by the ECFs, by the Church?
 
Last edited:
So… Peter . Not “Peter and apostles” as source of unity.

Why this entrenched desire to deny what’s being said about Peter – by Jesus, by the ECFs, by the Church?
You ignored the rest of the quote where binding and loosing was described as the power to forgive and retain sins and that this power was provided to all the apostles. Which was my point to begin with. Also, this assumes that later generations remained faithful to the doctrine of Peter, which is another question altogether.
 
Last edited:
You ignored the rest of the quote where binding and loosing was described as the power to forgive and retain sins and that this power was provided to all the apostles.
Except that this isn’t what the quote says! C’mon, Hodos!

The quote is merely enumerating things that Jesus said to Peter:
  • you are Peter
  • upon this rock I will build My Church
  • I give you the keys to the kingdom
  • whatsoever you loose…
  • feed my sheep
Then we see the things that are said to the apostles and to Peter:
  • as My Father sent me, so I send you
  • receive the Holy Spirit
  • whosoever sins you remit / retain, shall be remitted / retained
Notice the two distinct audiences and the two distinct sets of statements from Christ. “Keys” are only in the “said to Peter” set of statements.

If you refuse to admit that this is what your quote says, then I think it says something about how you’re attempting to use these texts. 🤷‍♂️
 
There is an interesting footnote in Hans Urs Von Balthasar’s book: The Office of Peter and the Structure of the Church; pg. 76; “Also, as is well known, it was not until the third century that the popes interpreted Matthew 16:18 as applying to the primacy. So much the better: papal primacy is thus seen to have existed and grown organically without theological reliance on scriptural proof-texts.”
 
Could this quote also be used by protestants against us Catholics?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top