Did Jesus and Judas coordinated beforehand about Judas' betrayal?

[ckoeber101]

Hello,

I am in deep discussion with a close friend about Judas’ role in Jesus’ resurrection.

Essentially we would like to know more about how much Jesus and Judas knew or potentially coordinated about in terms of Judas’s betrayal.

Specifically:

1). Did Jesus and Judas coordinate about Judas betraying Jesus?

2). Related, could Jesus have asked all of the disciples to fulfill that role but only Judas could do it?

3). Did Judas 100% know that Jesus would be killed after betraying him?

Thank you for your time.

 

[robertmidwest]

When I left work last night George Noory on Coast to Coast AM had a guest on his show that was discussing The Gospel of Judas.

I have to wonder if your post was stimulated by that.

 

[Trishie]

Jesus spent much time with His apostles, and their natures were not hidden from Him, nor from each other, John ( 12:6) mentions that Judas succumbed to stealing from the share purse. Money clearly was important to Judas, and he finally betrayed Jesus for money
Scripture, and Jesus’ apostles and evangelists believed that the betrayal was at the instigation of Satan

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08539a.htm

This fact that Judas carried the purse is again referred to by the same Evangelist in his account of the Last Supper (13:29). The Synoptic Gospels do not notice this office of Judas, nor do they say that it was he who protested at the alleged waste of the ointment. But it is significant that both in Matthew and Mark the account of the anointing is closely followed by the story of the betrayal:

Then went one of the twelve, who was called Judas Iscariot, to the chief priests, and said to them: What will you give me, and I will deliver him unto you? (Matthew 26:14-5)

And Judas Iscariot, one of the twelve, went to the chief priests, to betray him to them. Who hearing it were glad; and they promised him they would give him money. (Mark 14:10-1)

In both these accounts it will be noticed that Judas takes the initiative: he is not tempted and seduced by the priests, but approaches them on his own accord. St. Luke tells the same tale, but adds another touch by ascribing the deed to the instigation of Satan:

And Satan entered into Judas, who was surnamed Iscariot, one of the twelve. And he went, and discoursed with the chief priests and the magistrates, how he might betray him to them. And they were glad, and convenanted to give him money. And he promised. And he sought opportunity to betray him in the absence of the multitude. (Luke 22:3-6)

St. John likewise lays stress on the instigation of the evil spirit: “the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, to betray him” (13:2)."

 

[ChunkMonk]

1. No.
2. No.
3. He didn’t care.

 

[spiritualsoldier]

"1). Did Jesus and Judas coordinate about Judas betraying Jesus?

2). Related, could Jesus have asked all of the disciples to fulfill that role but only Judas could do it?"

I’ve never read a more absurd or outlandish proposal, and that is really saying something.

Jesus referred to Judas as the “son of perdition,” and declared that it would have been better for him to never have been born.

If Judas coordinated with anyone besides mere human beings regarding his betrayal of Jesus, it was with Satan, who “entered into Judas” (Luke 22:3).

 

[ckoeber101]

Thank you for all of your responses.

The responses sparked a lot of debate, we are currently centered on John 13:22.

A few additional questions arise:

1. Jesus declares that one person seated at the table will betray him. This sparks a discussion about who is the betrayer, then also who will be the greatest among them. Why is there an argument about greatness right after Jesus mentions that there is a betrayer amongst them?
2. Peter then asks a disciple (possibly James?) to ask Jesus whom it might be. Jesus directly answers the question by mentioning that he will dip bread and then hand the dipped bread to the one who will “betray” him. After doing so, at least one disciple knew that Judas was the betrayer. Why didn’t he protest? Why wasn’t there an argument?
3. When Judas brings a group of people and identifies Jesus with a kiss, why were the other discisples not angry or surprised about Judas?

 

[ChunkMonk]

1. Probably because the nature of man. Everyone wants to be the best, so when Jesus mentions there is a worst, they all immediately KNOW it isn’t them, and then since the topic was brought up, they probably thought it was an appropriate time to hammer down who was the greatest.
2. I doubt any of them really knew what Jesus was talking about, or had any real conception that Jesus would be arrested within the next twenty-four hours, much less crucified. You have to remember that the apostles usually had a very hard time listening to what Jesus was actually saying. That should serve as a warning to all of us. If the apostles, who knew and loved him best of all, found it difficult to really listen to him, then we should be extra careful to make sure we shut up sometimes and just let him talk and believe what he says.
3. Peter was obviously angry. They probably were angry and surprised at Judas but I get the feeling that they one: didn’t like to talk about Judas very much after the events of the following few days, two: had much, much more important things on their minds, and three: it all happened so fast that they didn’t have very much time to sit around and think about their reactions. Do you think Peter would have betrayed Jesus if he’d had a few hours to sit down and consider his next move? Of course not! He was standing around trying to figure out what was going on and the next second there was an angry crowd surrounding him, accusing him. He reacted without thinking. Another warning for us. We don’t always get a lot of time to make the right decision. Sometimes the defining moments of our lives happen suddenly and without warning. Peter got a second chance, but maybe we are not all so lucky. That is why it is so important to train yourself to always, always, always be righteous in everything you do.

 

[Benadam]

Peter then asks a disciple (possibly James?) to ask Jesus whom it might be. Jesus directly answers the question by mentioning that he will dip bread and then hand the dipped bread to the one who will “betray” him. After doing so, at least one disciple knew that Judas was the betrayer. Why didn’t he protest? Why wasn’t there an argument?

They knew Jesus could read their hearts. Way to afraid to argue. When Jesus mentioned this most of them started saying " surely not I’ doubting themselves. They were afraid to ask who it was. Peter motioned to John the beloved to ask Him. John was closest to Jesus and not a bit afraid of asking. He knew it wasn’t him and didn’t need to say it as a question.

 

[ckoeber101]

Thanks,

I guess the questions we are centering on now is:

1). Did Judas have free will in the matter? In various gospels we are reading that Satan entered into Judas and from that point Judas betrayed Jesus.

2). Jesus deliberately chose the twelve disciples out of many, meaning that they were special. Did each of them not have a role to play?

 

[Benadam]

After doing so, at least one disciple knew that Judas was the betrayer. Why didn’t he protest? Why wasn’t there an argument?

I don’t think anyone grasped what Jesus had been saying about it and not really grasping that it meant Jesus dying on a cross the next day.
Something Jesus knew they didn’t. How coiled and ready to strike the religious leaders of Jerusalem were…

 

[Kaninchen]

A rather mischievous question I’ve asked before:

If Reuben rather than Judah had come up with the selling Joseph idea, would there have had to be a disciple called Reuben Iscariot?

 

[Le_Bonvivant]

1. I think he had free will. I don’t think it’s meant that Judas was possessed by the devil. If that was the case Jesus and the apostles would have noticed. I think it just means Judas couldn’t resist the devil’s temptations.
2. Did he choose them because they were special? They were simple men, fishermen, people with other common professions. Not too much is mentioned about them in the gospels. Why Jesus chose Judas we don’t really know, but we don’t know much about why he chose the other 11 either.

What hasn’t been mentioned before is that Judas killed himself after betraying Jesus. If Jesus had asked Judas to do so, then why would Judas regret it so much?

The idea of Judas and Jesus working together has always been part of gnostic movements, but never of our Church.

 

[Benadam]

He may have been possessed. The will is free when possessed. The demon operate the higher and lower faculties but not the will. It seems Judas was persistent in this sin of betrayal. Persistent enough that Satan gained the right to enter him.

The beginning of the betrayal. Judas’ decision to act.

Luke 22-3
Then Satan entered into Judas called Iscariot, who was of the number of the twelve; 4 he went away and conferred with the chief priests and captains how he might betray him to them.

When Judas took the Bread dipped in wine.

John 13-26
So when he had dipped the morsel, he gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. 27 Then after the morsel, Satan entered into him. Jesus said to him, “What you are going to do, do quickly.”

That was a cap on the sin of betrayal. Receiving the Body and Blood in grave mortal sin. He even lied to Jesus face pretending to have the same bewilderment as the rest of the twelve. Below.

Matthew 26:24-25

24 The Son of man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.” 25 Judas, who betrayed him, said, “Is it I, Master?”[a] He said to him, “You have said so.”

No, there is no way that Judas was in cahoots with Jesus. Satan’s voice is the one Judas listened to.
I think Satan gained the right to enter Judas because Judas persisted in acts of betrayal against Jesus, His disciples and followers.

John 6-68
You have the words of eternal life; 69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.” 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?”

Jesus said this right after everyone was leaving Him because of His teaching on the Eucharist.

Judas wasn’t one of those that heard Jesus’ voice, Judas had another master.

 

[Benadam]

3). Did Judas 100% know that Jesus would be killed after betraying him?

I think this is such a good question.

What were Judas’ intentions? Did he even think that they were going to kill Jesus? Was it really just for the money? He said "I have betrayed innocent blood!

Well it seems that in Judas’ mind Jesus was a sinner when he betrayed Him.
Judas didn’t care much for the Gospel and Jesus was an ordinary man.
He did get in the habit of stealing money out of the community funds.
That may have been the persistent sin that gave Satan the right to possess him.

I think that once Judas decided to hand Jesus over, Satan had the right to possess him, to negotiate the deal. I think it boils down to Judas was with them. The Jewish authorities. The way they felt about Jesus Judas felt too. Explain away the miracles and good to go. He thinks of Jesus as someone who is guilty of something.like anyone else in the world
I

Luke 16 30
0 He said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced even if someone
rises from the dead.’”

I think looking at Judas we see the mystery that surrounds unbelief, the need for forgiveness and ultimately sin against the Holy Spirit.

The Suicide of Judas
3 When Judas, his betrayer, saw that Jesus was condemned, he repented and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders.

It seems, unless Judas felt that Jesus had sinned at some point, he saw Jesus as a sinner before the betrayal but not after.
He got the full revelation of God in as much as a human could receive it.What more could God do?

I still can’t say if Judas knew if they would kill Jesus
He must at least have been indifferent

 

[Benadam]

1). Did Judas have free will in the matter? In various gospels we are reading that Satan entered into Judas and from that point Judas betrayed Jesus.

Satan can possess the faculties but not the will

2). Jesus deliberately chose the twelve disciples out of many, meaning that they were special. Did each of them not have a role to play?

In a way. Remember He didn’t pick Peter though, the Father picked. .I think Jesus knew to ask the twelve “who do you say that I am” and The Holy Spirit, who knows the Father’s will, revealed to Peter who Jesus is.
A view of the Divine Persons operating here but not their internal conversation. I tend to believe that Jesus didn’t want to know everything. That He wanted to know what was necessary and good to know in order to fulfill His mission. Outside of that I believe He wanted to enjoy being human like everyone else.

I do think Jesus knew it would be Peter that the Holy Spirit would enlighten.

Jesus knew their hearts and could know the thoughts of others. He knew who would betray him. but Jesus left them to their own counsel. They all followed the dictates of their own heart…