Did Jesus appear to Adam?

[DeSanto]

I hope this is the right forum to come to. I am a “Catholic Come Home” and am currently in RCAI with my family. Although I have a wonderful personal relationship with Our Lord and I have a strong spiritual call to gain knowledge, I am not well learned in scripture yet. I know the stories but not sure on the details a lot of the time. I was hoping you guys can help me find some scriptures in the OT of when God had revealed himself to man such as when he walked with Adam in the garden or shown Himself to Moses or when prophets had visions or dreams ect. While in class recently, I had a small revelation. I said, “Hey, wait a minute, when God walked with Adam in the garden, could what Adam had seen been Jesus?” Or when Moses came face to face with God, did he see Jesus’ face, His human form? I know the bible says, From the beginning The Word was with God and that The Word “became” flesh and dwelt among us. And that only by being born of Mary did He actually “become” flesh but, does that necessarily mean He was not revealing Himself in human form before His birth? This is kind of an exciting idea to me, I’m anxious to hear some feed back on this. Am I way off base here or is this something every body knows already? I have no idea.

If I should be in a different forum, please send a suggestion.

 

[centurionguard]

There’s an ancient Homily taken from the Office of Reading on Holy Saturday.
It’s also mentioned at the Vatican site: vatican.va/spirit/documents/spirit_20010414_omelia-sabato-santo_en.html

The Lord’s descent into hell

"What is happening? Today there is a great silence over the earth, a great silence, and stillness, a great silence because the King sleeps; the earth was in terror and was still, because God slept in the flesh and raised up those who were sleeping from the ages. God has died in the flesh, and the underworld has trembled.

Truly he goes to seek out our first parent like a lost sheep; he wishes to visit those who sit in darkness and in the shadow of death. He goes to free the prisoner Adam and his fellow-prisoner Eve from their pains, he who is God, and Adam’s son.

The Lord goes in to them holding his victorious weapon, his cross. When Adam, the first created man, sees him, he strikes his breast in terror and calls out to all: ‘My Lord be with you all.’ And Christ in reply says to Adam: ‘And with your spirit.’ And grasping his hand he raises him up, saying: ‘Awake, O sleeper, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give you light.

‘I am your God, who for your sake became your son, who for you and your descendants now speak and command with authority those in prison: Come forth, and those in darkness: Have light, and those who sleep: Rise.

‘I command you: Awake, sleeper, I have not made you to be held a prisoner in the underworld. Arise from the dead; I am the life of the dead. Arise, O man, work of my hands, arise, you who were fashioned in my image. Rise, let us go hence; for you in me and I in you, together we are one undivided person.

‘For you, I your God became your son; for you, I the Master took on your form; that of slave; for you, I who am above the heavens came on earth and under the earth; for you, man, I became as a man without help, free among the dead; for you, who left a garden, I was handed over to Jews from a garden and crucified in a garden.

‘Look at the spittle on my face, which I received because of you, in order to restore you to that first divine inbreathing at creation. See the blows on my cheeks, which I accepted in order to refashion your distorted form to my own image.

'See the scourging of my back, which I accepted in order to disperse the load of your sins which was laid upon your back. See my hands nailed to the tree for a good purpose, for you, who stretched out your hand to the tree for an evil one.

`I slept on the cross and a sword pierced my side, for you, who slept in paradise and brought forth Eve from your side. My side healed the pain of your side; my sleep will release you from your sleep in Hades; my sword has checked the sword which was turned against you.

‘But arise, let us go hence. The enemy brought you out of the land of paradise; I will reinstate you, no longer in paradise, but on the throne of heaven. I denied you the tree of life, which was a figure, but now I myself am united to you, I who am life. I posted the cherubim to guard you as they would slaves; now I make the cherubim worship you as they would God.

“The cherubim throne has been prepared, the bearers are ready and waiting, the bridal chamber is in order, the food is provided, the everlasting houses and rooms are in readiness; the treasures of good things have been opened; the kingdom of heaven has been prepared before the ages.”

A reading from an ancient homily for Holy Saturday

Prayer

Almighty, ever-living God, whose Only-begotten Son descended to the realm of the dead, and rose from there to glory, grant that your faithful people, who were buried with him in baptism, may, by his resurrection, obtain eternal life.
(We make our prayer) through our Lord.
(Through Christ our Lord.)

Prepared by Pontifical University Saint Thomas Aquinas

Fraternally yours in Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[wanabesaint]

God is beyound the comprehension of the human, and it might be good to go and read the part of God giving to Moses, the ten commandments. Some place it is said that God put his hand over that of ?Moses, that even he might be protected to not see God.

Much is spewed it in the world of movies and ect that teaches a false pretense to God, and Many communiity Chirstian faiths spew out concepts that are then adopted in ignorance by Catholics, and to contribute to the confussion Catholics have thrown way(the great book burning) of the Catechisms in a Liberalization of the Church.

the catechism of the faith, are the learning tools of the Church, but a liberalization by the leadership has made them scarce, and hard to obtain… look for an old one, and read it…
If it was truth then, it should be today. is a good sugestion. God sent his son, who in his perfect sense was persecuted, humilified and eventual crusified, to which is a human nature of man to dispise Good and utlimately, God.
Now God has sent the Holy Spirit to guide people and to lead them, in combination of the Tradition of the Church which has through the Tradition of the Church also gave to the world the Bible. but it is often reinterprited to suit many in their desire to justify their denial of the very Tradition that the Church that put the Bible together.
The Gospel, is the direct speaking of God brought by his Son, to which the Holy Spriit speaks to the people. If you want to have God speak to you directly, go to church and listen to the Gospel, and the Priest is alowing the Holy Spirit speak to you.

Your mission is, to get your soul to heaven, but a great importance is, to take as many souls along. to turn any soul away from God, is to risk eternal damnation to yours.

 

[DeSanto]

There’s an ancient Homily taken from the Office of Reading on Holy Saturday.
It’s also mentioned at the Vatican site: vatican.va/spirit/documents/spirit_20010414_omelia-sabato-santo_en.html

Fraternally yours in Christ Jesus
Chris

That was awesome, definitely a quote I will look up and study further. But, I’m not sure if that clears up my question. My question deals with Adam before the fall. When God spoke with him and walked with him in the garden and even after the fall when Adam hid from God. Do you think Jesus was the image Adam saw? Is what you are saying, yes, Adam recognizes Jesus in human form as the same God that was with him in the garden of Eden?

 

[DeSanto]

God is beyound the comprehension of the human, and it might be good to go and read the part of God giving to Moses, the ten commandments. Some place it is said that God put his hand over that of ?Moses, that even he might be protected to not see God.

Much is spewed it in the world of movies and ect that teaches a false pretense to God, and Many communiity Chirstian faiths spew out concepts that are then adopted in ignorance by Catholics, and to contribute to the confussion Catholics have thrown way(the great book burning) of the Catechisms in a Liberalization of the Church.

the catechism of the faith, are the learning tools of the Church, but a liberalization by the leadership has made them scarce, and hard to obtain… look for an old one, and read it…
If it was truth then, it should be today. is a good sugestion. God sent his son, who in his perfect sense was persecuted, humilified and eventual crusified, to which is a human nature of man to dispise Good and utlimately, God.
Now God has sent the Holy Spirit to guide people and to lead them, in combination of the Tradition of the Church which has through the Tradition of the Church also gave to the world the Bible. but it is often reinterprited to suit many in their desire to justify their denial of the very Tradition that the Church that put the Bible together.
The Gospel, is the direct speaking of God brought by his Son, to which the Holy Spriit speaks to the people. If you want to have God speak to you directly, go to church and listen to the Gospel, and the Priest is alowing the Holy Spirit speak to you.

Your mission is, to get your soul to heaven, but a great importance is, to take as many souls along. to turn any soul away from God, is to risk eternal damnation to yours.

I appreciate where you are coming from. But, this was actually brought up in RCAI class. One of the catechist there actually said, Jesus was who our ancestors saw in the OT. Not that Moses was mentioned specifically, and i was actually not 100% sure about that account of Moses seeing God face to face. I did in fact hesitate before adding that into my quote. That is why I made sure to point out that I wasn’t sure about all the details when it came to the stories of the bible. I too remember reference to the fact that no human can see the true face of God until we are made pure. But, the thought that when man did have images, dreams, prophecies, and so forth, they were seeing the face of Jesus…That had never crossed my mind. So in fact, by posing this question to CAF members I am adhering to your warnings and making sure this is not just someone’s idea rather an accepted belief within the church. I suppose I will also do my own research on it but, this is where I chose to begin my inquiry.

Isn’t there a story of David seeing our Lord, and Daniel having a vision?

Good looking out though! Thanks!

 

[centurionguard]

That was awesome, definitely a quote I will look up and study further. But, I’m not sure if that clears up my question. My question deals with Adam before the fall. When God spoke with him and walked with him in the garden and even after the fall when Adam hid from God. Do you think Jesus was the image Adam saw? Is what you are saying, yes, Adam recognizes Jesus in human form as the same God that was with him in the garden of Eden?

I can’t really answer your question to say for sure if God appeared to Adam in the Garden of Eden in human form. I always thought the Garden of Eden was a supernatural realm even though as some say it still exist after Adam and Even were forced to exit and Angels were put in place to guard like pillars of fire to keep them out keeping its whereabouts hidden from sight. If one takes a closer look at the analogy of scripture in Genesis in the Story of Adam and Eve and in similar instance with the Story of Noah there seems to be no scriptural text that explains that God appeared before Adam and Eve as happened in the text of Noah. In both scriptural text it rather explains that “God” called out to Adam and Eve in the Garden. Likewise in the analogy text in the Story of Noah where God called out to him rather than scripture explaining God appeared to them in both separate instances.

The only scriptural text analogy where God first appears to a noted biblical figure in the Old Testament is Moses on Mt. Sinai in the form of a Burning Bush and later God hides Moses in the cleft of a rock and God goes by with Moses catching a glimse His shadow.

Was Jesus present in all biblical stories in Genesis? If we now know and believe in Faith in the Catholic teachings on the Great Mystery of the Holy Trinity the answer would definitively be Yes. However; in the Old Testament scriptural analogy it would seem that God takes on much more of a Fatherly figure in our own human perception. Even with the appearance of Jesus (the Son of God) in the Mystery of the Holy Trinity being with us as our Redeemer, the Fatherly aspect of God humanly revealed to us even by Jesus Himself doesn’t change that perception.

This is my humble understanding with regards to your questions.

Fraternally Yours in Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Della]

Welcome back home, DeSantos! There’s another reference to the Lord appearing in human form in Genesis 18: quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=59262 when 3 men came to visit Abraham to tell him he would be the father of many nations.

 

[PJM]

=DeSanto;10128311]I hope this is the right forum to come to. I am a “Catholic Come Home” and am currently in RCAI with my family. Although I have a wonderful personal relationship with Our Lord and I have a strong spiritual call to gain knowledge, I am not well learned in scripture yet. I know the stories but not sure on the details a lot of the time. I was hoping you guys can help me find some scriptures in the OT of when God had revealed himself to man such as when he walked with Adam in the garden or shown Himself to Moses or when prophets had visions or dreams ect. While in class recently, I had a small revelation. I said, “Hey, wait a minute, when God walked with Adam in the garden, could what Adam had seen been Jesus?” Or when Moses came face to face with God, did he see Jesus’ face, His human form? I know the bible says, From the beginning The Word was with God and that The Word “became” flesh and dwelt among us. And that only by being born of Mary did He actually “become” flesh but, does that necessarily mean He was not revealing Himself in human form before His birth? This is kind of an exciting idea to me, I’m anxious to hear some feed back on this. Am I way off base here or is this something every body knows already? I have no idea.

There are sever pieces of information you may find helpful?

First God [Yahweh] throughout the Old Testament [except for Moses] only revealed Himself as Almighty God in various forms: a cloud, Thunder, fire; on “the moutian” as a voice; but never as a “Person”.

The reason for this is that The Trinity is 'Spirit and Truth" and ONLY Jesus has two natures: As the Second person of the Blessed Trinity [Divine Nature] and through the Incarnation ALSO a complete and perect human nature as a man.

John 4:23-24 “But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true adorers shall adore the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeketh such to adore him.God is a spirit; and they that adore him, must adore him in spirit and in truth”.

So the human nature of God through Jesus did not exist until His Birth. As God: Christ always existed.

Gods revealing of Himself to Adam [and one supposes to Eve} was Only “the voice of God”
not a “person.” Gen. 2:16-21

God appeared to Moses in a burning bush Exo. 3:4
Out of “the moutain” Exo. 19:3
In “thick darkness” Exo. 20: 21
“Up on the moutain” to receive the Commandments Exo. 24:12
And saw God Look up Exo. chapters 32-34 [While Moses saw God" the exact form is not specified.

So NO God did not reveal himself in “human flesh” EXCEPT though Jesus is at the same time: God and man.

Exo. 3: 3-6 “[3] And Moses said, “I will turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.” When the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called to him out of the bush, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here am I.” Then he said, “Do not come near; put off your shoes from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground.” And he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God.”

God Bless,
pat /PJM here on this Forum

God Bless,

If I should be in a different forum, please send a suggestion.

 

[DeSanto]

Sorry, I have been gone for a few days. Thanks for the helpful comments. I knew this was a long shot and that the assertion made probably was not meant to be taken literally but, it surely did spark interest for me. Even though its purely speculative, I still have a couple more questions on the issue. Wasn’t there a story of David speaking of recognizing The Lord? Also, was there not an account of Daniel having a vision of The Lord? Were there any other prophets that had visions of Him as well?