Did Jesus ask us to worship Him?

[trogiah]

Gosh.

Anyway, here’s one of the hits. Nobody ever told me this, but I have an idea why we don’t canonize saints until after they are dead. I think it has to do with the effect that being canonized would have on a human being.

For some reason, it feels to me like there is some common thread between the canonization process and worshiping Jesus after He died, as compared to while He was walking on the earth??

Alan

I think what you suggest is not unrelated to the fact that the gospel of John, which seems to present Jesus much more as a person to be worshiped, was written later than the other three gospels.

 

[wiggbuggie]

Jesus actions of washing his disciples feet and serving others and did not considered himself equal with God etc Jesus is showing us how we are to live our lives " love each other as I love you" and " a slave is no greater than his master" “who ever wants to be first must be last” etc.

 

[Liraco]

I’m questioning how much it is God’s command and how much we have constructed an earthly-designed discipline that we believe meets God’s command. If the latter, is it infallible, and if it isn’t, may I not question it? After all, until I question something I really don’t know if I can believe in it or not. I guess I’m a bit like Thomas in that way. Just because 99 out of 100 Catholics believe it, isn’t a reason my mind and heart will willingly believe it, if that’s basically the only evidence we get from it. My personal view of God and faith in influenced by, but still is not completely dependent on, the Dominant Thinking of others in my group.

There’s nothing wrong with using your reason, it’s encouraged. Just remember that our reason alone can’t understand it all. You’re right that just because 99/100 believe something doesn’t make it true, but Jesus did leave us a teaching authority to who one owes their obedience if one understands that it’s the way Jesus intended to order His Body the Church. Without authority, we’d be like the protestants branching out to a new sect every time we disagreed.

Even St. Augustine said “I would not believe the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not compel me.” Without that authority, how do we even know what books are in there?

While obedience isn’t the same as worship, you can’t worship (give honor) to God if you disobey Him. Just like you couldn’t say you respect your wife yet violently beat her daily.

I cannot just “will” my mind to believe something

True, you can’t force yourself to believe something just as we can’t be forced to love someone. We can choose to, but if we don’t will/choose to do so then we simply won’t. That’s free will.

It’s easy to love God. Not so easy to love each other.

I know the feeling but I’m also reminded of 1 John 4:19-21
We love because he first loved us.
If anyone says, “I love God,” but hates his brother, he is a liar; for whoever does not love a brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.
This is the commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

God be praised for all the gifts He’s given you, attention to detail is something that seems to be lacking a lot these days. I certainly mean no rebuke to your “splitting hairs”, I just try to help where I can. It’s the Holy Spirit that’ll convince you, not I. I’m just a sower on the field.

I like Peter Kreeft’s summary of Job’s questions to God. The very simple answer of “Child, how could you possibly hope to understand?” That’s why Jesus asks us to be like children: trusting. That doesn’t mean we shut off our logic, but that we should trust God more than ourselves. He knows what’s best after all.

I’m just not sure we are specifically called to worship him using specific means such as verbal ejaculations and singing certain types of songs.

Some people are made for it, others aren’t. God left us plenty of choice on how we worship. So long as one doesn’t think the can skip out on the mass itself and the Eucharist, then we are free to worship as we best can express it. Singing isn’t for everyone and works of mercy sound great regardless of whether you do or don’t sing.

God bless you, Alan.

 

[Thomas69]

I have struggled with this same question. The Gospel of John, on the surface, is inconsistent with the whole of scriptures on the matter of Trinity. Indeed, the Catholic Church does not recognize that Trinity doctrine comes from Scripture…see the Catholic encyclopedia on the subject…In the Gospel of John, the problem is with the word “Word”. It can have many meanings in Greek. Logos…Wisdom…the Creative Word of God as God spoke and the Universe was created…(See Genesis). So there is a lot of splainin’ to do Lucy!

 

[dmar198]

I have struggled with this same question. The Gospel of John, on the surface, is inconsistent with the whole of scriptures on the matter of Trinity. Indeed, the Catholic Church does not recognize that Trinity doctrine comes from Scripture…see the Catholic encyclopedia on the subject…In the Gospel of John, the problem is with the word “Word”. It can have many meanings in Greek. Logos…Wisdom…the Creative Word of God as God spoke and the Universe was created…(See Genesis). So there is a lot of splainin’ to do Lucy!

I did check the Catholic Encyclopedia, and this is what it says:

The evidence from the Gospels culminates in the baptismal commission of Matt., xxviii, 20. It is manifest from the narratives of the Evangelists that Christ only made the great truth known to the Twelve step by step. First He taught them to recognize in Himself the Eternal Son of God. When His ministry was drawing to a close, He promised that the Father would send another Divine Person, the Holy Spirit, in His place. Finally, after His resurrection, He revealed the doctrine in explicit terms, bidding them go and teach all nations, “baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” (Matt., xxviii, 19). The force of this passage is decisive. That “the Father” and “the Son” are distinct Persons follows from the terms themselves, which are mutually exclusive. The mention of the Holy Spirit in the same series, the names being connected one with the other by the conjunctions “and … and”, is evidence that we have here a Third Person coordinate with the Father and the Son, and excludes altogether the supposition that the Apostles understood the Holy Spirit not as a distinct Person, but as God viewed in His action on creatures. The phrase “in the name” (eis to onoma) affirms alike the Godhead of the Persons and their unity of nature. … Moreover, the use of the singular, “name”, and not the plural, shows that these Three Persons are that One Omnipotent God in whom the Apostles believed. …

Besides these passages there are many others in the Gospels which refer to one or other of the Three Persons in particular, and clearly express the separate personality and Divinity of each. In regard to the First Person it will not be necessary to give special citations: those which declare that Jesus Christ is God the Son, affirm thereby also the separate personality of the Father. The Divinity of Christ is amply attested not merely by St. John, but by the Synoptists. As this point is treated elsewhere (see Jesus Christ), it will be sufficient here to enumerate a few of the more important passages from the Synoptists, in which Christ bears witness to His Divine Nature. (I) He declares that He will come to be the judge of all men (Matt., xxv, 31). In Jewish theology the judgment of the world was a distinctively Divine, and not a Messianic, prerogative. (2) In the parable of the wicked husbandmen, He describes Himself as the son of the householder, while the Prophets, one and all, are represented as the servants (Matt., xxi, 33 sqq.). (3) He is the Lord of Angels, who execute His commands (Matt., xxiv, 31). (4) He approves the confession of Peter when he recognizes Him, not as Messias—a step long since taken by all the Apostles—but explicitly as the Son of God: and He declares the knowledge due to a special revelation from the Father (Matt., xvi, 16, 17). (5) Finally, before Caiphas He not merely declares Himself to be the Messias, but in reply to a second and distinct question affirms His claim to be the Son of God. He is instantly declared by the high priest to be guilty of blasphemy, an offense which could not have been attached to the claim to be simply the Messias (Luke, xxii, 66-71).

St. John’s testimony is yet more explicit than that of the Synoptists. He expressly asserts that the very purpose of his Gospel is to establish the Divinity of Jesus Christ (John, xx, 31). In the prologue he identifies Him with the Word, the only-begotten of the Father, Who from all eternity exists with God, Who is God (John, i, 1-18). The immanence of the Son in the Father and of the Father in the Son is declared in Christ’s words to St. Philip: “Do you not believe, that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me?” (xiv, 10), and in other passages no less explicit (xiv, 7; xvi, 15; xvii, 21). The oneness of Their power and Their action is affirmed: “What things soever he [the Father] doth, these the Son also doth in like manner” (v, 19. Cf. x, 38); and to the Son no less than to the Father belongs the Divine attribute of conferring life on whom He will (v, 21). In x, 29, Christ expressly teaches His unity of essence with the Father: “That which my Father hath given me, is greater than all … I and the Father are one.” The words, “That which my Father hath given me”, can, having regard to the context, have no other meaning than the Divine Nature, possessed in its fullness by the Son as by the Father.

 

[mercytruth]

This is probably about the most difficult question I’ve asked myself, and after years of not mentioning it to anybody, I asked my pastor the other day, and now I’m bringing it to you.

It seems I read, but now can’t find, a scripture that says Jesus came as a servant, and not to be served – or something like that. I’m not sure about this, so don’t hold me to it.

When they called Jesus “good,” He said that only His Father in heaven is Good.

So He is divine, but why wouldn’t He let them call Him “good?”

Then we have Peter unworthy to have his feet washed by Jesus, but Jesus insists that Peter doesn’t understand. Seems to me Jesus did not want us to worship Him, possibly because He was showing us the way to be and we should not seek admiration from other humans.

Then we have John the Baptist, unworthy to untie Jesus’ sandals – but Jesus didn’t want to be treated above anyone else, and instructed John to proceed.

I got up the courage to ask my pastor, “does the Bible say anywhere that we are to worship Jesus?”

He referred to the desert scene:

I had just enough courage to ask one follow up question, “but isn’t He referring to His Father?”

Pastor said, “since Jesus was God, he was in effect referring to Himself.”



I let it go, with “thank you, Father, something to think about I suppose.”

What I thought but didn’t state exactly, that I was hoping he would think about it more and find me a better example, because in one case I see that He is saying only the Father, not He, is to be called “good.” In the other case, He says “God” but now equates to God?

In a prayer, reading, book, somewhere I remember a sentence something like, “He was God, but didn’t consider Himself equal to God.”

I’m not trying to start a fight, and I ask we keep the utmost of respectful tone in this thread. I really want to know. I want to believe that the Church practices what Jesus teaches. I believe it in faith, but I don’t understand it with my mind, and I struggle sometimes with believing in my heart – because my head just won’t quite let this go.

Can anybody help shed some light on this?

Thanks in advance,
Alan

P.S. One other thing that caused me to think of this question in the first place, was when I heard a Presbyterian minister claim that as Jesus rode on the donkey with people praising Him and throwing flowers or whatever, He wept. The minister suggested that Jesus knew by the way they were worshiping Him, that they still hadn’t “gotten the point.” That was before I ever started reading the Bible myself, so I didn’t go study it. It seems I found that reference about Him weeping one time, but now I can’t find it again.

Alan, it depends on one’s definition of ‘worship’. Within the NT there are three principle Greek words that are translated as ‘worship’. ‘proskuneo’. ‘latreuo’, and ‘sebomai’.

The last two Greek verbs are applied to God the Father exclusively as I recall, the first one, ‘proskuneo’ is applied to God the Father and to our Lord Jesus Christ. In the OT in the Septuagint, 'proskuneo is used to describe Moses bowing homage to his father-in-law, Jethro, to the bowing homage given to various kings of Israel.

Being a servant of Jesus Christ is a different Greek word from the Greek word, ‘latreuo’. which is basically accorded to liturgical worship of God in the Temple.

The scripture regarding the response from Jesus Christ to Satan is taken from the book of Deuteronomy. It says, thou shalt fear the LORD thy God, and Him only thou shalt serve" (latreuo). (Deuteronomy 6:13) (In the Greek Septuagint version of the OT)

For some reason, the gospel records this saying of Jesus Christ as 'Thou shalt worship (proskuneo) the LORD thy God, and Him only shall thou serve"(latreuo)

One of the most frequent expressions of Jesus Christ to his disciples is 'fear not".

Jesus Christ is Divine. My fear is of the LORD God our Father. We are to offer, or serve Him with sacrifices of thanksgiving and praise. We are to give all honor, glory, obeisance
to His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ.

These simply are my observations of the Greek words translated as ‘worship’ within the NT and the Septuagint OT. Take it with a grain of salt.

God’s peace

micah

 

[jcrichton]

…So He is divine, but why wouldn’t He let them call Him “good?”

Then we have Peter… I got up the courage to ask my pastor, “does the Bible say anywhere that we are to worship Jesus?”

He referred to the desert scene…

I remember a sentence something like, “He was God, but didn’t consider Himself equal to God.”

I’m not trying to start a fight, and I ask we keep the utmost of respectful tone in this thread. I really want to know. I want to believe that the Church practices what Jesus teaches. I believe it in faith, but I don’t understand it with my mind, and I struggle sometimes with believing in my heart – because my head just won’t quite let this go.

Can anybody help shed some light on this?

Thanks in advance,
Alan

P.S. …He wept. …It seems I found that reference about Him weeping one time, but now I can’t find it again.

Hi, Alan!

…there are many things that in deed seem contradicting… Jesus heals people from conditions that cannot but be noticed when those people are sound yet He Commands that they not reveal to anyone what He has done… (even the fellow that He pulls away from the crowd and heals his deafness and speach impediment–everyone would know… unless he remained silent and pretended not to hear any sound); He also silences the evil spirits when they are compeled to acknowledge His Divinity; there’s even one particular event (Transfiguration) where He Commands Peter, John and Andrew? not to reveal the event until His Resurrection… He would always shy away from any overt attention to His Powers… but I only recall three episodes where He does not hide from His Divinity… these instances might not quite be what you (and most) would accept as they do not employ the exactness of your query:

a) Jesus Command Satan and Satan humbly obeys:

10 Then Jesus replied, ‘Away with you, Satan! For scripture says: The Lord your God is the one to whom you must do homage, him alone you must serve.’ 11 Then the devil left him, and suddenly angels appeared and looked after him. (St. Mattew 4:10-11)

…once Jesus Commanded him to leave Satan departed without hesitation.

b) Jesus’ Ministry has advanced to the point that He can reveal to His Disciples that He is much more than an apostle or paraclete and the New Covenant Worship Begins:

1 Do not let your hearts be troubled. You trust in God, trust also in me… 6 Jesus said: I am the Way; I am Truth and Life. No one can come to the Father except through me. 7 If you know me, you will know my Father too. From this moment you know him and have seen him. 8 Philip said, ‘Lord, show us the Father and then we shall be satisfied.’ Jesus said to him, 9 'Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? 'Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father, so how can you say, “Show us the Father”? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? What I say to you I do not speak of my own accord: it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his works. 11 You must believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe it on the evidence of these works. 12 In all truth I tell you, whoever believes in me will perform the same works as I do myself, and will perform even greater works, because I am going to the Father. 13 Whatever you ask in my name I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it. (St. John 14:1-14)

…up till that moment the Old Covenant was fully in place… now Jesus introduces a new mode of worship… one in which everything that was direct to the Father is now in complete resonance with the Son: you Believe in the Father, good… Believe also in Me!

c) This third instance is based both on Scriptures and in the culture found in Judaism:

26 Eight days later the disciples were in the house again and Thomas was with them. The doors were closed, but Jesus came in and stood among them. ‘Peace be with you,’ he said. 27 Then he spoke to Thomas, ‘Put your finger here; look, here are my hands. Give me your hand; put it into my side. Do not be unbelieving any more but believe.’ 28 Thomas replied, ‘My Lord and my God!’ 29 Jesus said to him: You believe because you can see me. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe. (St. John 20:26-29)

…from what I understand about Judaism, Thomas uses words that cannot be attributed to anything but worship, yet, while he has addressed Jesus as his Lord and his God Jesus does not question him nor forbids him from paying such homage!

…I’ve just recalled another, though much more obscured, instance:

16 Jesus said, ‘Mary!’ She turned round then and said to him in Hebrew, ‘Rabbuni!’ – which means Master. 17 Jesus said to her, ‘Do not cling to me, because I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to the brothers, and tell them: I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ (St. John 20:16-17)

…Christ makes a direct separation between Son of Man (human, not to be worshiped) and the Word (Divine, God from God).

Maran atha!

Angel

PS: I was forced to cut through the post 6k limit!

 

[jcrichton]

When He said “eat My flesh and drink My blood,” do you not think it would horrify people? I think Jesus was a master at shaking people out of their comfort zone, so while they are out he can come in and quick rearrange the furniture before the people get back.

Seriously, what could He have said that would have been that provocative to Catholics, as “eat and drink” was to the Jews? Then he exacerbates the injury when they ask Him to clarify it but He refuses, saying instead that He meant exactly what He said and that if you don’t do what sounds horrific to your religious convictions (even though it’s not – trust me) then you absolutely can’t be a part of me. He couldn’t have told people to sin, but it sure sounded to them like He was.

What if Jesus came into a Catholic Church, as a lay person and not a religious, and say, starting today, all are welcome to receive Communion regardless of mortal sin. Do make your confession, but if you have an honest intent to go soon, then come on to the table. I know your heart is in the right place. In fact, if you share My Body and Blood, it will nourish you even before you get to that confession.

Wouldn’t that be horrible – or at least have some shock value? Isn’t it true that it is considered destructive to knowingly consume the Eucharist when in mortal sin? If Jesus decided to help us “grow in understanding” of the worthiness requirement in this way, would it not throw a lot of people off? I’m guessing if someone says that, he would be seen as anything but Jesus – nobody would really think Jesus would say those things. Would they?

Alan

…but bringing forth the New Covenant that would emanate from His Body and Blood was not simply a “shock” and “woo” device!

Jesus actually changed the form of worship from a temporal value based on symbolic sacrifices to a Spiritual value based on His Eternal Sacrifice.

The Apostles taught against the sacrilegious parttaking of the Body and Blood, why would Jesus come and tell people “don’t worry, sin happy… just make sure you drop by and pick up some bread and wine… God is Love and He understand where your heart is even when you are obstinate enough to remain in unrighteous reveling!”

Would Satan not have the right to the very first place in such sacrificial altar?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Meanwhile I’m just thinking out loud … if someone tells us that we must love them, or worship them, and in so doing or not doing, we will receive reward or punishment, respectively, then I’m not sure how that works. Concerning our free will, how can we do something (love, worship) we are commanded to do, that only really works if we elect to do it out of our own free will, without bias – that is, threats or bribes. Maybe it’s a “fake it 'till you make it” sort of a thing?

If anyone wants to carry this discussion further, I’m game. For me, I consider the answers I’ve gotten as sufficient to answer my question at this particular time.

Thanks again, everyone… I may also look back on the thread and reread some of the posts, since it is a lot of information for me to take in at one time.

Alan

Alan… that’s just it! God does not need you to worship Him… it is totally up to you… if you determine that you can do it alone–go ahead… but what you are suggesting is that if I had a farm (completely natural no chemicals or altered genes) I should allow you and anyone that wanted to do so to simply drop by eat and drink everything on sight, burn down the farm, kill those animals that were not consumed, poison the land and the water, do who knows what to me, family, employees, and anyone else found at the farm… and I should just grin and say “please come again!”

God will not force anyone to worship, love and obey; but that relationship goes both ways: those who reject God’s Authority and Dominion must do so away from God!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I think what’s being missed here is that rabbis taught by asking their students questions, and by challenging their students’ answers and requests, asking for some kind of justification. (Remember, when Jesus was found in the Temple as a kid, He was answering the rabbis’ questions. So He’d been on the hotseat in His time.) So Jesus, as a rabbi, is supposed to ask people questions in order to get them to think and learn and discover what He means, and they’re perfectly aware that this is the game.

When Jesus does actually answer instead of question, He usually has some kind of twist in His answer that He wants His disciples and listeners to pick up, or there’s a scriptural reference. Again, they know this is the game.

Either way, it’s not a smack in the face; it’s an invitation to learn more by figuring out what’s going on. It’s not a process without humor or love. It’s not being mean and showing the disciples they’re stupid. It’s class in session.

So “Why do you say I am good?” is not a denial. It’s an invitation to enter the rabbi game of answering the rabbi’s questions in order to learn something. In this case, He was in fact leading up toward the fact that He was good, was in fact goodness Himself, because He was God. (Ditto being the Way, the Truth, and the Life – only possible for God, of course…)

…I concur! Jesus wants His disciples to connect the dots… (‘Mean what you say, don’t just stroke my ego!’)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I honored my earthly father by obeying him. I do not worship him; he did some things wonderfully but other things I’m intentionally doing differently with my kids.

If you want to define worship as obedience, I’m OK with that as long as the other posters agree that’s what we mean. If you say it’s about obedience, I’m on board with you on that. Chances are, we may have different opinions as to HOW to go about that obedience.

I’m also not sure how “faith without works it dead” is an allusion to worshiping him. I can have faith in Him and do good works, without ever singing a song to worship Him.

If it’s OK with God, it’s OK with me to sing. I play piano at Mass every Sunday. I love playing praise and worship hymns for people to sing, both the old ones I played 40 years ago like Praise to the Lord, and the newer-ish ones like “The King of Glory” that was only in the guitar Mass when I was little.

As far as faithful and obedient to the Lord’s command, if you are talking about the Last Supper, as I read it He said to “do this in remembrance of me.” Again, I can do things to connect with my earthly father in remembering him, without necessarily worshiping him.

Like I said, we can open up the term “worship” to mean anything we do in His name. Then I’m OK. If we mean Jesus wants us to sing about His being a king and all that, then there’s where I’m questioning how much it is God’s command and how much we have constructed an earthly-designed discipline that we believe meets God’s command. If the latter, is it infallible, and if it isn’t, may I not question it? After all, until I question something I really don’t know if I can believe in it or not. I guess I’m a bit like Thomas in that way. Just because 99 out of 100 Catholics believe it, isn’t a reason my mind and heart will willingly believe it, if that’s basically the only evidence we get from it. My personal view of God and faith in influenced by, but still is not completely dependent on, the Dominant Thinking of others in my group.

Alan

…then your Faith is not in God but in man; so when a new wave of theology hits (say, Christ is not God but an angel) you would reject God Himself to follow the belief of a man made in your likeness instead of accepting the Word of God Who made both you and the fool that leads you away from the Truth.

If you Believe in Christ, you Believe because you Trust that He is Who He says He is: Truth: Way: Resurrection: Life!

…rememberence of Christ and obediance is not worship–some Muslims have a fairly good opinion of Christ (good teacher, well-intentioned) but they are not in fellowship (ditto the Jehovah Witnesses); when you are in fellowship rememberence and obedience take on a different character… it is different than human content because we are Commanded to Love (Worship/Obey/Submit) God above all else… so while you may defer to a parent/spouse/sibling/spiritual advocate/Priest/Bishop…) your will is not subject to theirs as you can always reject their advise/command with only temporal consequences… as Jesus stated ‘do not fear those who can only take your life.’

…so while obedience does not translate to worship, we cannot worship God unless we humbly obey Him!

…it is the reason why “Faith” without works is empty and those who are even able to cast out evil spirits in Christ’s Name may still be left out in the coldness of hell!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Maybe it’s partly my engineering background…
experts in the Church teachings on these very forums, saying things that are technically accurate but give a wrong picture because they use loaded words as if they were sterile…
– I cannot just “will” my mind to believe something… as long as there is some sort of red flag that makes me want to further question that thing I wish I could believe.

So you see, it’s my job to question everything…

…Well, the engineers were right…

I worked for Boeing at the time, and I was privy to some of the internal documents on this matter.

Can you see why I split hairs about the exact meaning of the words we use?

It is objective fact that I’ve held other people’s lives in my hands as I analyzed my own designs and other people’s designs. I know just how easy it is for an error to creep in that makes all the difference, that nobody else in the room would have thought of. Now I’m being asked to take the words of people who claim they are infallibly correct on something, and that I must agree with them or my eternal life is at stake. I’m sorry, but I will ask questions until I’m satisfied I know the answer one way or another – or at least to a large enough degree I can design a system to work whether or not we know the answer for sure.

From my point of view, being technical makes it harder to have faith in what other fallible people tell me I should have faith in. My spiritual director helped me by suggesting I read Job 37-40.

Alan

…I think that I’m beginning to understand your compulsion… I should warn you that intellect alone will not make it!

…remember the Hubble? …millions and millions of dollars… hundreds of technitians, inspectors and maintenance personel… along with teams of managers… yet its maiden voyage ended on a grandiose flop: human error stalled human inginuity (inches vs. meters) …it is the same for your spiritual trek: rely solely on human engineering and you will flop!

The Bible is not just another book that you can dissect to discover its secrets nor is it a matter of picking the brains of Believers that will gain you the understanding you seek… it is a matter of Faith… and it is Jesus the One Who actually Originates Faith… this simple matter becomes hugely complexed as the the “symbiosis” of God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) interact with, among, and in us… remove any part of God (from your mind/theology) and you would have an imperfect understanding… a void that cannot be filled!

…I often think that that is the reason why simple people find God and peace (even in the worst of circumstances) more often than the intellectual and wealthy…

God is closer to you than you think… seek Him from within… ask the Holy Spirit to be your personal mentor and guide:

1 Love uprightness you who are rulers on earth, be properly disposed towards the Lord and seek him in simplicity of heart; 2 for he will be found by those who do not put him to the test, revealing himself to those who do not mistrust him. 3 Perverse thoughts, however, separate people from God, and power, when put to the test, confounds the stupid. 4 Wisdom will never enter the soul of a wrong-doer, nor dwell in a body enslaved to sin; 5 for the holy spirit of instruction flees deceitfulness, recoils from unintelligent thoughts, is thwarted by the onset of vice. 6 Wisdom is a spirit friendly to humanity, though she will not let a blasphemer’s words go unpunished; since God observes the very soul and accurately surveys the heart, listening to every word. 7 For the spirit of the Lord fills the world, and that which holds everything together knows every word said. 8 No one who speaks what is wrong will go undetected, nor will avenging Justice pass by such a one. 9 For the schemes of the godless will be examined, and a report of his words will reach the Lord to convict him of his crimes. 10 There is a jealous ear that overhears everything, not even a murmur of complaint escapes it. 11 So beware of uttering frivolous complaints, restrain your tongue from finding fault; even what is said in secret has repercussions, and a lying mouth deals death to the soul. 12 Do not court death by the errors of your ways, nor invite destruction through the work of your hands. 13 For God did not make Death, he takes no pleasure in destroying the living. 14 To exist – for this he created all things; the creatures of the world have health in them, in them is no fatal poison, and Hades has no power over the world: 15 for uprightness is immortal. 16 But the godless call for Death with deed and word, counting him friend, they wear themselves out for him; with him they make a pact, worthy as they are to belong to him. (Wisdom 1:1-16)

…remember, God never holds back His Graces and Blessings… we set the limits of our committment to the Truth!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I’m OK with that. Note that I may not accept that singing certain types of songs, assuming the certain postures, saying certain words, etc. are absolutely implied by our call to obedience.

If you agree that to the extent we are commanded to “worship” Him, that acts of mercy are in fact forms of worship, then we have no disagreement and this discussion can now go into the archives and be over. :tiphat:

If by “worship” you mean specifically singing, clapping your hands, speaking out enthusiastically during group prayer in a certain tone of voice, etc. – basically worshiping in a form that conforms to somebody else’s idea of worship – then we don’t yet have an agreement.

Alan

Alan, it is not the act but the mind/heart set that matters… Jesus tells us that if we love those who are of benefit to us (family, friends…) we have as much merit as the wicked who do the same… it is obeying God and going beyond those comfort levels that demonstrate to God that we actually are Loving and Worshiping Him…

…acts of mercy or even acts of kindness does not necessarily translate to worshiping Yahweh God since the worse of humanity can hide selfish motives in the guise of acts of mercy and kindness… Jesus made a clear example of matters of the heart when it came to being generous… He pointed out an old lady whose offering was that of some coins with very little value while many that came before gave “generously;” Jesus commended the old lady’s offering because she actually gave from the heart (ditto the Publican who convicted himself as a sinner)–worship and acts of worship must primarily take into account the object of our worshiping!

…I must concur with you that form (song, clap, dance, etc…) emptied of love does not demonstrate worship nor any level of spirituality (spiritual growth/devotion)–but even a tone-deaf worshiper can prove his/her Faith by his/her willingness to assist the Body of Christ in song-worship (yeah even if that person only hits one of every few notes): form (as “from the heart”) does count!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I have struggled with this same question. The Gospel of John, on the surface, is inconsistent with the whole of scriptures on the matter of Trinity. Indeed, the Catholic Church does not recognize that Trinity doctrine comes from Scripture…see the Catholic encyclopedia on the subject…In the Gospel of John, the problem is with the word “Word”. It can have many meanings in Greek. Logos…Wisdom…the Creative Word of God as God spoke and the Universe was created…(See Genesis). So there is a lot of splainin’ to do Lucy!

I think that you may be reading it wrong:

newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm#I

In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together. The word trias (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A.D. 180. He speaks of "the Trinity of God [the Father], His Word and His Wisdom (To Autolycus II.15). The term may, of course, have been in use before his time. Afterwards it appears in its Latin form of trinitas in Tertullian (On Pudicity 21). In the next century the word is in general use. It is found in many passages of Origen (“In Ps. xvii”, 15). The first creed in which it appears is that of Origen’s pupil, Gregory Thaumaturgus. In his Ekthesis tes pisteos composed between 260 and 270,

The Church recognizes that Scriptures do not use the term “trinity” or that the three Persons of God isn’t found in Scriptures in a single term… this does not equate to the doctrine of the Holy Trinity not founded in Scriptures since Scriptures do state that the Father is God, that the Son is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God!

…as for the term “Word,” “Logos” or Wisdom… please don’t get hanged up in idioms and roots… read the unabridged cheat sheet:

1 In the beginning was the Word: the Word was with God and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things came into being, not one thing came into being except through him. 4 What has come into being in him was life, life that was the light of men; 5 and light shines in darkness, and darkness could not overpower it. 6 A man came, sent by God. His name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to bear witness to the light, so that everyone might believe through him. 8 He was not the light, he was to bear witness to the light. 9 The Word was the real light that gives light to everyone; he was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world that had come into being through him, and the world did not recognise him. 11 He came to his own and his own people did not accept him. 12 But to those who did accept him he gave power to become children of God, to those who believed in his name 13 who were born not from human stock or human desire or human will but from God himself. 14 The Word became flesh, he lived among us, and we saw his glory, the glory that he has from the Father as only Son of the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John witnesses to him. He proclaims: ‘This is the one of whom I said: He who comes after me has passed ahead of me because he existed before me.’ 16 Indeed, from his fullness we have, all of us, received – one gift replacing another, 17 for the Law was given through Moses, grace and truth have come through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God; it is the only Son, who is close to the Father’s heart, who has made him known. (St. John 1:1-18)

…so puting aside all science (etymology, etc.), St. John is telling us that the Holy Spirit has Revealed to him that Christ Jesus, the Word Incarnate, is God and that everything that exists has been Created by Christ Jesus, Who is the Word, aka: Life, aka Light, aka Truth, aka the Only Son of God!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Alan, it depends on one’s definition of ‘worship’. Within the NT there are three principle Greek words that are translated as ‘worship’. ‘proskuneo’. ‘latreuo’, and ‘sebomai’.

The last two Greek verbs are applied to God the Father exclusively as I recall, the first one, ‘proskuneo’ is applied to God the Father and to our Lord Jesus Christ. In the OT in the Septuagint, 'proskuneo is used to describe Moses bowing homage to his father-in-law, Jethro, to the bowing homage given to various kings of Israel.

Being a servant of Jesus Christ is a different Greek word from the Greek word, ‘latreuo’. which is basically accorded to liturgical worship of God in the Temple.

The scripture regarding the response from Jesus Christ to Satan is taken from the book of Deuteronomy. It says, thou shalt fear the LORD thy God, and Him only thou shalt serve" (latreuo). (Deuteronomy 6:13) (In the Greek Septuagint version of the OT)

For some reason, the gospel records this saying of Jesus Christ as 'Thou shalt worship (proskuneo) the LORD thy God, and Him only shall thou serve"(latreuo)

One of the most frequent expressions of Jesus Christ to his disciples is 'fear not".

Jesus Christ is Divine. My fear is of the LORD God our Father. We are to offer, or serve Him with sacrifices of thanksgiving and praise. We are to give all honor, glory, obeisance
to His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ.

These simply are my observations of the Greek words translated as ‘worship’ within the NT and the Septuagint OT. Take it with a grain of salt.

God’s peace

micah

Hi, micah!

Thank you for the definition of worship… I think I hear Father Mitch Pacua explain it once… its good to have it for reference!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[InJesusItrust]

The Son glorifies the Father, and the Spirit glorifies the Son. The Spirit does not even speak about Himself but about the Son. There is God, God’s Word, and the breathe (Spirit) that is present whenever God speaks. These 3 are 1.

I am reading a Catechism with theology, and it seems to be saying that the Father is above us, the Son is beside us and the Spirit is inside us. God is humble and obedient, which cannot be a characteristic of Him if He is one Person. Because God is humble, the Son places the Father above Him, although they are equal.

 

[InJesusItrust]

I have struggled with this same question. The Gospel of John, on the surface, is inconsistent with the whole of scriptures on the matter of Trinity. Indeed, the Catholic Church does not recognize that Trinity doctrine comes from Scripture…see the Catholic encyclopedia on the subject…In the Gospel of John, the problem is with the word “Word”. It can have many meanings in Greek. Logos…Wisdom…the Creative Word of God as God spoke and the Universe was created…(See Genesis). So there is a lot of splainin’ to do Lucy!

The trinity is a doctrine that best explains the Scriptures. The scriptures themselves do no mention the trinity. If God is humble, there needs to be at least two Divine Persons, the Father and the Son.

 

[mercytruth]

Hi, micah!

Thank you for the definition of worship… I think I hear Father Mitch Pacua explain it once… its good to have it for reference!

Maran atha!

Angel

Hi angel,

You are welcome. I used a Strong’s concordance to find all the Greek words translated as ‘worship’ and ‘serve’ that are in the NT. I think the Douay Rheims has a concordance very similar in principle. Father Pacwa is a very learned priest, I am sure he has a better grasp of this subject.

Yes keep smiling, and Maran atha!

God’s peace to you

micah

 

[Pitcharan]

I thought that the Gospels bring out very clearly that:

1. Till His glory and divine identity were revealed by His resurrection, He strictly
   forbade and carefully eluded glorification or worship by anyone
2. As the Risen Lord, He showed no objection at all to being worshipped.

 

[jcrichton]

The trinity is a doctrine that best explains the Scriptures. The scriptures themselves do no mention the trinity. If God is humble, there needs to be at least two Divine Persons, the Father and the Son.

…actually, it is Scriptures that tell us that God exists in three Divine Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).

Maran atha!

Angel