Did Jesus atone for sins, or for both sins AND the principle of sin in us?

[jacobaer]

Hi all,

This has come up in a discussion with a non-Catholic Christian. I know that Jesus atoned for our sins. I am not sure about the principle of sin being atoned for, though. I am thinking that this may be covered under Original Sin, as we Catholics understand it. We are born deprived of holiness and justice, with our human nature wounded with a propensity to sin. Did Jesus atone for this also, in addition to the sins that we actually commit?

Thanks,
Jacobaer

 

[JRKH]

Hi all,

This has come up in a discussion with a non-Catholic Christian. I know that Jesus atoned for our sins. I am not sure about the principle of sin being atoned for, though. I am thinking that this may be covered under Original Sin, as we Catholics understand it. We are born deprived of holiness and justice, with our human nature wounded with a propensity to sin. Did Jesus atone for this also, in addition to the sins that we actually commit?

Thanks,
Jacobaer

I have never heard of this. Could you elaborate a bit??

Peace
James

 

[jacobaer]

Hi James,

I will try to elaborate.

There is something in us that makes us sin. Jesus atoned for this principle of sin also, in addition to atoning for our sins. This is the point that the other person is trying to make, from Scripture, in Romans 6.

Here is his post:

"
See Romanss 5:14 - “Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.”
Notice, death reigns even over those that have not sinned in action.

Note the major premise that sin is within, not without in Romans 6. It is a principle of sin, not just sins. It is the principle that we are in bondage to. Note in the midst of that chapter, 6:10 “The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the live he lives, he lives to God.”

Note, Jesus died to sin the principle, not sins, the actions.

This is followed by the detailed portion that includes the statement, “Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.” Sounds like a sin principle, not sins, that lives inside Paul.

So, there is counterpoint to your portion of dying for sins."

Any help here?

Jacobaer

 

[JRKH]

Hi James,

I will try to elaborate.

There is something in us that makes us sin. Jesus atoned for this principle of sin also, in addition to atoning for our sins. This is the point that the other person is trying to make, from Scripture, in Romans 6.

Here is his post:

"
See Romanss 5:14 - “Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.”
Notice, death reigns even over those that have not sinned in action.

Note the major premise that sin is within, not without in Romans 6. It is a principle of sin, not just sins. It is the principle that we are in bondage to. Note in the midst of that chapter, 6:10 “The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the live he lives, he lives to God.”

Note, Jesus died to sin the principle, not sins, the actions.

This is followed by the detailed portion that includes the statement, “Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.” Sounds like a sin principle, not sins, that lives inside Paul.

So, there is counterpoint to your portion of dying for sins."

Any help here?

Jacobaer

Well - I guess I get to pleas stupid here…

To tell you the truth, I don’t see a lot here to disagree about. It sounds a bit like an “academic principle” that may or may not be true, but has little bearing on the actual living of a Christian life. (Sort of like predestination)

There is indeed, “something in us that makes us want to sin”, and Jesus did admonish his disciples to recognize that what we think can be just as sinful as how we act. So I would say that Jesus, in living and dying as He did in complete obedience to the Father, would have atoned for ALL sin whether acted upon or not.

Of course when one considers the idea of sin entering the world through Adam and Eve one need to recognize that the “principle” of sin had to be in their makeup prior to the actual sin. That “principle” of which I speak is called “Free Will”. Adam and Eve were able to make the Choice of odedience or disobedience. Without this freedome to choose there would be no sin but there would also be no “Free Will” and we would be acting only on “instinct”.

Does this help any?

Peace
James

 

[jacobaer]

James,

Make that two pleading stupid!

You just enlightened me on something, though. Jesus’ entire life was an offering to the Father. So, in living a completely righteous life, in addition to atoning for our sins on the Cross, he conquered sin in us.

What do you think?

Jacobaer

 

[JRKH]

James,

Make that two pleading stupid!

You just enlightened me on something, though. Jesus’ entire life was an offering to the Father. So, in living a completely righteous life, in addition to atoning for our sins on the Cross, he conquered sin in us.

What do you think?

Jacobaer

I would say rather that He “conquered sin”, for I must say that I am still personally battling the ole’ “sin-principle” in me. Perhaps we can say that Jesus, by His example among us as well as His Truimph over the grave, released “Graces” that were unavailable under the Old Covenent.

Make sense?

Peace
James

 

[jacobaer]

James,

Although raised Catholic, my conversion happened in a Baptist church, and I went Protestant for the next 30-plus years. I’ve been back since Easter 2005. Sometimes I wonder how much “residual Protestantism” there still is in my thinking.

I, too, do not believe in the “sin principle” in us,as though there is a second nature in us, a sin nature, or some type of infection. If I have Church teaching correct, Original Sin is the lack of original justice and holiness that our first parents were created with. We are born with only one nature, our human nature, but we are deprived of grace until we experience salvation through Christ. Our human natures are wounded. We are, in a sense, turned in on ourselves. Sin is, in essence, self-centeredness. We glorify ourselves instead of God.

Gene