Did Jesus believe the Old Testament was error-free?

[Bruce_Killian]

Hang on a second, though: just because Moses is referenced or quoted , doesn’t mean that he must be the author …

Exodus 24:4 And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.
Numbers 33:2 And Moses wrote their goings out according to their journeys by the commandment of the LORD: and these [are] their journeys according to their goings out.
Deuteronomy 31:9 And Moses wrote this law, and delivered it unto the priests the sons of Levi, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and unto all the elders of Israel. … 22 Moses therefore wrote this song the same day, and taught it the children of Israel.
Joshua 8:32 And he wrote there upon the stones a copy of the law of Moses, which he wrote in the presence of the children of Israel.
John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
So Moses wrote the Torah and Jesus said Moses wrote of Him.

 

[Gorgias]

Let’s see if what you think you demonstrated is actually what you demonstrated:

Exodus 24:4 And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.

This is a reference to the Mosaic covenant, not the entirety of the Pentateuch.

Numbers 33:2 And Moses wrote their goings out according to their journeys by the commandment of the LORD: and these [are] their journeys according to their goings out.

The RSVCE renders this verse thusly:

These are the stages of the people of Israel, when they went forth out of the land of Egypt by their hosts under the leadership of Moses and Aaron. Moses wrote down their starting places, stage by stage, by command of the LORD; and these are their stages according to their starting places.

So, again, what we have here is a record of “starting places”… not the entirety of the book of Numbers (let alone the entire Pentateuch).

Deuteronomy 31:9 And Moses wrote this law

This is a retelling of the narrative in Exodus. “Deutero-nomos” – a “second (telling) of the law” – get it? Pretty clever name, eh?

Joshua 8:32 And he wrote there upon the stones a copy of the law of Moses, which he wrote in the presence of the children of Israel.

The “he” referenced here is Joshua, not Moses

John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

This is a good quote. Does it claim that Moses was the author of the entire Pentateuch, though? (Nope.)

So Moses wrote the Torah and Jesus said Moses wrote of Him.

Your conclusion doesn’t match your citations. It over-extrapolates, based on what you’ve shown.

 

[Pattylt]

I had a wonderful Rabbi as a good friend many years ago. I once asked him if he really thought Moses wrote the Torah. His reply still cracks me up. He said, “Well, someone wrote it and if we don’t know who that someone was, we might as well call him Moses!”

Just a lighthearted thought. Most Jewish scholars no longer believe Moses wrote it, either. Strict Orthodox and Hasidic Jews definitely do claim Moses wrote it…even his death and post death writings. They do so for theological reasons, however.

 

[Bruce_Killian]

It over-extrapolates, based on what you’ve shown.

So Jesus quoted Moses and attributed it to Moses the Pentiteuch. Jesus was around before Abraham so before Moses. Jesus talked to Moses on the Mt. of Transfiguration. But you have so much more insight than Jesus. If the Scripture is God breathed and God cannot lie, are you insisting that God is a liar?

 

[Dan_Defender]

So Moses wrote the Torah and Jesus said Moses wrote of Him.

There is also internal evidence that the person who wrote the Pentateuch was a learned person and familiar with the geography and biology of Egypt so the best candidate is Moses.

 

[Gorgias]

So Jesus quoted Moses and attributed it to Moses the Pentiteuch.

I see the first half of your assertion in the Gospels. The second half, though? Nah… not what Jesus said. Who’s the liar?

 

[Krisdun]

Jesus quoted the book of Psalms and the book of Isiah the most. Does that mean these books are more reliable compared to some others?

 

[Maximian]

The Bible can be true and error free and still make use of symbolic stories

Yes. Indeed Jesus did this frequently. When Jesus said “A sower went out to sow” he was not speaking of a historical event.

 

[Bruce_Killian]

I see the first half of your assertion in the Gospels. The second half, though? Nah… not what Jesus said. Who’s the liar?

What Moses wrote is called the Law in Hebrew Torah or more fully the Law of Moses. The person besides Jesus would most knew what Moses wrote was his assistant for 40 years Joshua.
Joshua 8:31-32, 34 just as Moses the servant of the LORD had commanded the people of Israel, as it is written in the Book of the Law of Moses, “an altar of uncut stones, upon which no man has wielded an iron tool.” And they offered on it burnt offerings to the LORD and sacrificed peace offerings. 32 And there, in the presence of the people of Israel, he wrote on the stones a copy of the law of Moses, which he had written. … 34 And afterward he read all the words of the law, the blessing and the curse, according to all that is written in the Book of the Law.
Matthew 5:17-18 17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Luke 16:16-17 "The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone forces his way into it. 17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one dot of the Law to become void.
Luke 24:44 Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”
Jesus asserts even the dots in the Law of Moses.

 

[Gorgias]

What Moses wrote is called the Law in Hebrew Torah or more fully the Law of Moses.

OK. Fair enough. Answer me this, though: if Moses wrote the entire Pentateuch, how did he write about his death and burial?

 

[Bruce_Killian]

if Moses wrote the entire Pentateuch, how did he write about his death and burial?

Nearly a year earlier Moses was told take your brother Aaron to the top of Mt. Hor. Transfer his priestly vestments to his son Eleazar he is about to die (Number 20:20-29). Aaron also could not enter the promised land. The mourned for Aaron for 30 days. It is now almost 30 days before the 40 years of wilderness wandering is complete. Moses is not allowed to enter the promised land. Moses has outlived everyone else. He is 120 years old. It is time for him to be gathered to his fathers. He knows it and God has told him it will happen. He has transferred his leadership position to Joshua. Now he will ascend Mt. Nebo/Pizgah take a look at the promised land and die.
A similar passage Moses was far in a way the meekest man in all the earth. Numbers 12:3 In hte same way Jesus could say imitate me for I am meek and humble of heart. Moses could record his humility.

 

[Gorgias]

Now he will ascend Mt. Nebo/Pizgah take a look at the promised land and die.

Still doesn’t explain this:

So there, in the land of Moab, Moses, the servant of the LORD, died as the LORD had said;
6
and he was buried in a valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth-peor; to this day no one knows the place of his burial.

8
The Israelites wept for Moses in the plains of Moab for thirty days, till they had completed the period of grief and mourning for Moses.

9
Now Joshua, son of Nun, was filled with the spirit of wisdom, since Moses had laid his hands upon him; and so the Israelites gave him their obedience, just as the LORD had commanded Moses.

10 Since then no prophet has arisen in Israel like Moses

How could Moses write about all these things that happened following his own death?

 

[annem]

How could Moses write about all these things that happened following his own death?

The ancient Jews answered, Moses wrote these with tears in his eyes, especially about his death. Another suggestion was that the addition was made by someone else.

 

[annem]

No one seems to have brought up the central problem about the Old Testament, which is that by the time of Jesus, there was no accepted canon, or New Testament, agreed to by all the Second Temple Jews,

The most important near collection of a canon we have is in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Daniel seems to have been given great significance. But which books were considered canon and which were simply revered?

The old belief was that rabbis met at Jamnia perhaps in the 90s AD to form a canon. This is now no longer accepted.

So, how and when did the books of the Old Testament form into a recognized canon? There have been a few Catholic scholars - I agree with them, although there is no proof - argue that Catholic acceptance of certain books into our New Testament canon caused the Jews to reject some books that were earlier accepted.

 

[Gorgias]

Another suggestion was that the addition was made by someone else.

Ding ding ding! There we go! And, when we look at the stylistic differences throughout the Pentateuch, with an a priori outlook that doesn’t preclude a number of authors / editors, then we’re able to reach a more reasonable conclusion. After all, it’s no less the Word of God, even if it’s not purely Mosaic authorship…

 

[Gorgias]

So, how and when did the books of the Old Testament form into a recognized canon?

I’m of the mind that the notion of “Jewish canon” is irrelevant in this discussion. This is a question of the Christian canon of Scripture, and we have good historical data on that question.

 

[annem]

I’m of the mind that the notion of “Jewish canon” is irrelevant in this discussion. This is a question of the Christian canon of Scripture , and we have good historical data on that question.

Okay, but the original question was whether Jesus regarded the OT was without errors. l don’t see how you can grapple with that question if we haven’t discussed whether or not the Second Temple Jews even had a canon.

 

[Mishakel]

No one seems to have brought up the central problem about the Old Testament, which is that by the time of Jesus, there was no accepted canon, or New Testament, agreed to by all the Second Temple Jews,

This is not a central problem. Christ held the Jews accountable to scripture (old testament) again and again. They obviously didn’t call it the old testament but Christ knew that the Jews possessed the Word of God.

The OP question about Jesus believing the Old Testament was error free seems silly since Christ is the Word and scripture itself is the Word of God. Yes humans literally wrote the words we have in scripture but they did so through revelation of God so the words you read are indeed God breathed or theopneustos.

 

[Gorgias]

Okay, but the original question was whether Jesus regarded the OT was without errors. l don’t see how you can grapple with that question if we haven’t discussed whether or not the Second Temple Jews even had a canon.

The answer I’ve always heard was that the Jews outside of Jerusalem (and in the diaspora) used the Septuagint. So, even though there were competing canons, it would seem to be the case that Jesus used that one.

And, I’m going to turn the question on its head: Jesus told Peter that whatever he binds is bound in heaven. The Church set the canon of the Septuagint as the OT canon; in addition, it teaches that Scripture is inerrant (although we might need to discuss what that means?). So, in a certain sense, the answer is “yes”, since what the Church proclaims doctrinally on earth is likewise bound in heaven.

Fair enough?

 

[Dan_Defender]

The Dead Sea Scrolls have more in common with the Septuagint than with the Masoretic Text. That says something about what canon was being used around the 1st century.