Did Jesus die for the people that were already in hell before he was crucified?

[Gorgias]

Christ dies, goes to visit, opens the door and the souls stuck there then get to go to heaven or hell based on how they had lived their lives

He disagrees with number 3 old testament history. Gorgias does I mean

No, I agree with @KatyCatholic’s point #3. I just disagree with your interpretation of what it means!

They had not been judged until Jesus got there so I’m not understanding the second chance thing.

This is the part I disagree with. Do you have anything from Church teaching that you can cite or quote that shows that “they hadn’t been judged [yet]”? I’m asserting that, actually, they had been judged, but (since the gates of heaven were closed), they couldn’t receive their reward until Christ’s sacrifice was complete.

Also, there is more than one perspective on how judgement happens. The Church hasn’t defined just how it happens.

Perhaps you might explain what you mean. The Catechism seems pretty clear on how and when the Particular Judgement happens:
CCC 633-634:

Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell” - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical… Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.

“The gospel was preached even to the dead.” The descent into hell brings the Gospel message of salvation to complete fulfilment. This is the last phase of Jesus’ messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ’s redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption.

So, Jesus doesn’t go down to Sheol to judge souls for the first time – that Particular Judgment is already complete – or to give a ‘second chance’. Rather, He goes to “free the just who had gone before Him”.

Granted the nuns that taught me used the word ‘preached’ St Thomas’ word is more precise.

The Greek word that’s used in 1 Peter 3:9 can mean ‘preached’ or ‘proclaimed’.

you should read Nelkas reference it’s better than mine.

The thing is… @Nelka’s reference is saying the same thing I’m saying:

all the souls of the just, Christ descended to free from their captivity, from their prison, and to lead them at his ascension triumphant with him into heaven. … Christ did not go to preach to the damned.

Not to all, mind you, but only to “many”, who were just (including ‘patriarchs, prophets, and just men’).

 

[Benadam]

Perhaps you might explain what you mean. The Catechism seems pretty clear on how and when the Particular Judgement happens:

CCC 633-634:

The judgement of humanity began when eternity entered time. That was when Jesus entered time and history. After Jesus the particular judgement is immediate. I understand that for those OT age souls judgement may have seemed immediate but one isn’t fit to be judged until they enter eternity. In their case , according to St Aquinas Jesus enlightened hell.

St. Augustine

In this prison souls would not be detained unless they were indebted to divine justice, nor would salvation be preached to them unless they were in a state that was capable of receiving salvation

 

[Vico]

Thank you if you can answer this.

Acts 2:31 (Douay-Rheims-Challoner)

31 Foreseeing this, he spoke of the resurrection of Christ. For neither was he left in hell, neither did his flesh see corruption.

Acts 2:31 (NABRE)

31 he foresaw and spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that neither was he abandoned to the netherworld nor did his flesh see corruption.

Catechism

“He died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures”

601 The Scriptures had foretold this divine plan of salvation through the putting to death of “the righteous one, my Servant” as a mystery of universal redemption, that is, as the ransom that would free men from the slavery of sin.397 Citing a confession of faith that he himself had “received”, St. Paul professes that "Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures."398 In particular Jesus’ redemptive death fulfills Isaiah’s prophecy of the suffering Servant.399 Indeed Jesus himself explained the meaning of his life and death in the light of God’s suffering Servant.400 After his Resurrection he gave this interpretation of the Scriptures to the disciples at Emmaus, and then to the apostles.401

397 Isa 53:11; cf. 53:12; Jn 8:34-36; Acts 3:14.
398 1 Cor 15:3; cf. also Acts 3:18; 7:52; 13:29; 26:22-23.
399 Cf. Isa 53:7-8 and Acts 8:32-35.
400 Cf. Mt 20:28.
401 Cf. Lk 24:25-27, 44-45.

 

[Benadam]

I think I know what the confusion is all about here maybe.

So, Jesus doesn’t go down to Sheol to judge souls for the first time – that Particular Judgment is already complete – or to give a ‘second chance’. Rather, He goes to “free the just who had gone before Hi

I see the particular judgement not as God deciding but as me deciding. I see Love face to face and I say yes or no to God. What is my habit? Saying yes to God or no to God during life will presumably be what determines the out come.

 

[De_Maria]

yup. And I was taught that when Jesus died He preached the Gospel to all the souls in Hades. Jesus’ soul went where all human souls went after death. There, everyone from the dawn of history was with Him. They went with Him and were saved or they stayed to never get out. It was after Jesus went to Hades that it became hell. Before that it was a place where all parted souls waited for judgement

Well, hold on. It sounds like you’re making the same error that @De_Maria is making, but in the opposite direction.

What mistake do you perceive in my comment?

Does this mean that His sacrifice wasn’t for those who rejected Him? No – He still died for their sins; they just didn’t accept His sacrifice while they were alive.

He wasn’t sacrificed while they were alive. Let’s take one example. Cain. He was long dead when Jesus died on the Cross. Do you claim that Jesus died to save him? If so, please tell me when Cain was made aware that Jesus was sacrificed for his salvation.

 

[De_Maria]

None of the people who died before Jesus came experienced hell until after being offered salvation from Christ in Hades.

Besides the point.

Did Jesus offer them salvation when they were in Hades? Or was their fate already sealed?

 

[Gorgias]

What mistake do you perceive in my comment?

Two things, unless I’m misunderstanding what you wrote.

You wrote that Jesus did not die for the sins of those who lived before Him but did not (eventually) attain to heaven. Unless you mean “Jesus’ death did not provide a second chance for those already dead”, then it would seem that you mean that Jesus’ death was not for the sins of all. This would be incorrect, in precisely the way we make a distinction between ‘sufficient’ and ‘efficacious’ grace. Just as grace is real, whether it is merely sufficient to save or if it actually does achieve the goal for which it is intended, I think we would say that Jesus’ sacrifice is atonement for the sins of all people … whether or not everyone accepts His sacrifice and is saved by it. So, I would say that the answer is “yes, Jesus died for those who were already dead (and condemned) prior to His sacrifice … they just didn’t accept God, and therefore, weren’t saved.” (I think you’re saying what I’m saying, except you express your answer as “no”, which might lead to misunderstanding.)

Secondly (and again, I might be misunderstanding), you state that Jesus died for the sake of “sins committed in the first covenant.” While that is true, it seems to me that stating it that way makes it seem like His sacrifice on behalf of those who had already passed away was only for those under the Mosaic covenant. It was not. (You mention ‘Sodom and Gomorrah’ and Egyptians, so perhaps “for Jews only” wasn’t what you had in mind, but still.)

(And yes, I’m picking nits. )

However, you continue to say things that make me wonder whether I’m being too pedantic. To wit:
De Maria:

He wasn’t sacrificed while they were alive.

Immaterial. Jesus’ sacrifice was necessary for anyone to attain to heaven.

Let’s take one example. Cain. He was long dead when Jesus died on the Cross. Do you claim that Jesus died to save him?

Absolutely! We’re not Pelagians: we believe that, without Jesus’ sacrifice, Cain could not attain to heaven.

If so, please tell me when Cain was made aware that Jesus was sacrificed for his salvation.

When Jesus “preached to him in prison”, as Peter writes.

 

[Gorgias]

I see the particular judgement not as God deciding but as me deciding. I see Love face to face and I say yes or no to God. What is my habit? Saying yes to God or no to God during life will presumably be what determines the out come.

From a symbolic perspective, what you say has merit. Strictly speaking, though, you’re getting it backward. In the Particular Judgment, it’s not us saying ‘yes’ or ‘no’ to God – it’s Jesus saying ‘yes’ or ‘no’ to us (based on the witness of our life on earth). There’s no “presumably” about it – the outcome is fully determined by our life on earth, and not at all determined by any act of our will following our death.

 

[Benadam]

I think it’s contingent on their habit in life. I think the light of Christ could operate on the soul and offer it grace they could respond to, as long as the will could overcome the souls damning habit.

 

[Benadam]

Gorgias, you have convinced me to rethink this. you got me thinking and now too many passages apposing my view popping in my head. Thanks Gorgias

 

[De_Maria]

What mistake do you perceive in my comment?
Two things, unless I’m misunderstanding what you wrote.

You’re misunderstanding what I wrote.

You wrote that Jesus did not die for the sins of those who lived before Him

Please quote that part. I said that Jesus died to redeem all sins of the Old Testament.

However, you continue to say things that make me wonder whether I’m being too pedantic. To wit:

He wasn’t sacrificed while they were alive.

Immaterial. Jesus’ sacrifice was necessary for anyone to attain to heaven.

Let’s take one example. Cain. He was long dead when Jesus died on the Cross. Do you claim that Jesus died to save him?

Absolutely! We’re not Pelagians: we believe that, without Jesus’ sacrifice, Cain could not attain to heaven.

If so, please tell me when Cain was made aware that Jesus was sacrificed for his salvation.

When Jesus “preached to him in prison”, as Peter writes.

So, this proves that you believe that Jesus gave them a second chance in the after life. You disagree with Catholic Doctrine in this belief.

Thanks to @Nelka for this quote:

Nelka8h
Haydock Bible

Ver. 19. … See here a proof of a third place, or middle state of souls: for these spirits in prison, to whom Christ went to preach after his death, were not in heaven, nor yet in the hell of the damned; because heaven is no prison, and Christ did not go to preach to the damned. (Challoner) — St. Augustine, …*

And who posted this one, you?

CCC633-634

… Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him…

 

[De_Maria]

Two things, unless I’m misunderstanding what you wrote.

You’re misunderstanding what I wrote.

You wrote that Jesus did not die for the sins of those who lived before Him

Please quote that part.

but did not (eventually) attain to heaven. Unless you mean “Jesus’ death did not provide a second chance for those already dead”,

Yes. That is what I meant.

then it would seem that you mean that Jesus’ death was not for the sins of all. This would be incorrect,…

Are you claiming that Jesus died to give the wicked a second chance?

…in precisely the way we make a distinction between ‘sufficient’ and ‘efficacious’ grace.
Just as grace is real, whether it is merely sufficient to save or if it actually does achieve the goal for which it is intended, I think we would say that Jesus’ sacrifice is atonement for the sins of all people … whether or not everyone accepts His sacrifice and is saved by it.

When did I say it wasn’t?

So, I would say that the answer is “yes, Jesus died for those who were already dead (and condemned) prior to His sacrifice … they just didn’t accept God, and therefore, weren’t saved.”

I found that wording a bit vague. Therefore, I reworded it. I don’t think you read my rewording of the original question. I asked, "did you mean that Jesus died to SAVE those who were condemned to hell before His sacrifice?

I answered that Jesus died to bring about God’s will for all who died in the Old Testament. Those who were condemned and those who were saved.

How would you answer my rewording of the question?

(I think you’re saying what I’m saying, except you express your answer as “no”, which might lead to misunderstanding.)

Since you don’t specify what you mean by “Jesus died for those who were already dead”, I think it is your answer which is confusing.

But yes, I think we’re saying the same thing.

Secondly (and again, I might be misunderstanding), you state that Jesus died for the sake of “sins committed in the first covenant.” While that is true, it seems to me that stating it that way makes it seem like His sacrifice on behalf of those who had already passed away was only for those under the Mosaic covenant. It was not. (You mention ‘Sodom and Gomorrah’ and Egyptians, so perhaps “for Jews only” wasn’t what you had in mind, but still.)

The first covenant was with all men. At least, that was my understanding. The Mosaic covenant was not the first.

Sorry for the confusion in these two responses. Somehow, the body of the first attempt got lost and I had to figure out what was left out.

 

[De_Maria]

I think it’s contingent on their habit in life. I think the light of Christ could operate on the soul and offer it grace they could respond to, as long as the will could overcome the souls damning habit.

Do you mean that you think they could accept God’s grace in the afterlife?

 

[Gorgias]

Gorgias:

You wrote that Jesus did not die for the sins of those who lived before Him

Please quote that part.

No problem:

I think you’re asking whether Jesus died to save the people who were already in hell in Old Testament times? Am I right?

In my opinion, the answer is, “no”.

As the Apostles’ Creed states, Jesus descended to Hell. (Hades / Sheol)

Did Jesus die to save the people who were already there? Absolutely.

De_Maria:

then it would seem that you mean that Jesus’ death was not for the sins of all. This would be incorrect,…

Are you claiming that Jesus died to give the wicked a second chance?

Nope.

I answered that Jesus died to bring about God’s will for all who died in the Old Testament. Those who were condemned and those who were saved.

How would you answer my rewording of the question?

Yep. That makes more sense, although I wouldn’t confine it only to “those who died in the OT”.

The first covenant was with all men. At least, that was my understanding.

Hmm… no? The only covenant that was made “with all men” is Jesus’ New Covenant.

 

[Benadam]

Not any more. I posted to you a few posts up about it.

 

[De_Maria]

Gorgias quoted me:

I think you’re asking whether Jesus died to save the people who were already in hell in Old Testament times? Am I right?

In my opinion, the answer is, “no”.

As the Apostles’ Creed states, Jesus descended to Hell. (Hades / Sheol)

1. I asked you to quote where you claimed that I said that Jesus did not die for the sins of those who died before them. I don’t see any such quote. Unless you can equate what you provided with that idea, I’d say you have been proven wrong.
2. I’ve already mentioned in the previous exchange, that you are wrong in claiming that the Catholic Church teaches that Jesus died to save those people in “hell” who were going to be condemned. I’ve provided evidence from St. Augustine and from the Catechism to support my argument. You’ve provided only your opinion to the contrary.

Did Jesus die to save the people who were already there? Absolutely.

Again, you need to provide the Catholic Teaching. Otherwise, this is only your opinion.

then it would seem that you mean that Jesus’ death was not for the sins of all.

On the contrary, Jesus Christ brought about the “fulfillment of the Old Testament”. That means that He brought about God’s will for the sins of all mankind. The sins of the wicked were punished. The sins of the Just were washed away and they were admitted into heaven.

This would be incorrect,…

My explanation is in accordance with Catholic Teaching. Yours contradicts the Catholic Church.

I asked

Are you claiming that Jesus died to give the wicked a second chance?

You answered

Nope.

Then you are contradicting yourself.

I answered that Jesus died to bring about God’s will for all who died in the Old Testament. Those who were condemned and those who were saved.

How would you answer my rewording of the question?

[/quote]

Yep. That makes more sense, although I wouldn’t confine it only to “those who died in the OT”.

Agreed. But this discussion is about those who died in the OT.

Hmm… no? The only covenant that was made “with all men” is Jesus’ New Covenant.

Actually, the first and second covenants were with all men.

The Adamic Covenant was with Adam and Eve. That was the entire population.
The Noahide Covenant was with Noah’s family after the Flood. That was the entire population.

According to Scripture, even the Abrahamic Covenant was with all men, although, the gentiles were not aware of it:

Romans 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision as a seal on the righteousness received through faith while he was uncircumcised. Thus he was to be the father of all the uncircumcised who believe, so that to them [also] righteousness might be credited, 12 as well as the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but also follow the path of faith that our father Abraham walked while still uncircumcised.

Notice that St. Paul says that the Covenant was made with Abraham before he was circumcised “Thus he was to be the father of all the uncircumcised who believe,…as well as the father of the circumcised…”.

 

[Guest1]

The hell I want to know about is the one for people who are there in “torment” if that’s okay to say. not Abraham’s bosom.

Did Jesus die for those people ? Like say Cain went to hell.

Did Jesus die for the sins Cain committed?
Not saying for Cain to go to heaven.

 

[Benadam]

Hell is a final destiny. Jesus died for the forgiveness of sin. That has to happen before we enter eternity. Cain would have been judged when Jesus’ soul joined all the souls of the dead.

Ask some real hell questions. Well, I;ve read there are no friendships in hell. I;ve read that people who were close in life will blame each other for sins committed together, The closer the person in life the more vicious they treat one another

I’ve read that when a damned soul and body reunite the body will blame the soul for leading it to hell and the soul will blame the body for not taking it’s lead.

And the demons haven’t even been cast down here yet. That’s where the real torment comes from:hushed:

 

[steve-b]

Thank you if you can answer this.

What "He Descended into Hell" From the Apostles' Creed Means | Catholic Answers Q&A

The OT which is what you are referring to, had this possibility when one died

Lk 16:
19 “There was a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate lay a poor man named Laz′arus, full of sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz′arus in his bosom. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz′arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Laz′arus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.’”

When Jesus descended into hell mentioned in the apostles creed, he didn’t go to the hell of the damned (gehenna). Abraham’s bosom wasn’t heaven but hades. Heaven wasn’t opened yet by Jesus. Abraham’s bosom was where the righteous of that time went when they died. That’s who Jesus descended to, to preach to.

 

[De_Maria]

The hell I want to know about is the one for people who are there in “torment” if that’s okay to say. not Abraham’s bosom.

There is some controversy on that question. The Church, to my knowledge, has not clarified whether the wicked of the OT went directly to the hell of the damned or were being tormented in a temporary after life prison conjoined to Abraham’s bosom. See the example of Lazarus and the Rich Man which was provided by someone else.

Remember that the people in Purgatory (Abraham’s bosom) were also in torment, at some point.

1 Corinthians 3:15 But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved,[a] but only as through fire.

Did Jesus die for those people ? Like say Cain went to hell.

In my opinion, Jesus died to bring about Cain’s eternal punishment. Cain was in the place of torment known as the “place of the dead” or “hades”.

Did Jesus die for the sins Cain committed?

Yes. In the sense that He died to bring about the Justice of God to Cain for the sins that he committed.

Not saying for Cain to go to heaven.

You are correct. Not for Cain to go to heaven, but to bring about his eternal sentence. Just as He brought about the eternal reward of those who died in God’s righteousness:

Hebrews 11:
Faith of the Ancients. 1 Faith is the realization of what is hoped for and evidence of things not seen. 2 Because of it the ancients were well attested. …39 Yet all these, though approved because of their faith, did not receive what had been promised. 40 God had foreseen something better for us, so that without us they should not be made perfect.

I hope that helps.