Did Jesus die on 33AD?

[richherleikson]

RH …

Yes, they prepared spices on the day of Crucifixion [Good Friday] … and Mark also says they obtained additional spices AFTER Saturday’s sundown … which makes it the first hours of Sunday.

The fact that the Luke and Mark suggest they obtained spices on two dates … doesn’t settle the issue for you. It seems they were rushed on Good Friday, and perhaps lacked a key spice or two they needed … so they obtained those extras on their next opportunity, AFTER the Sabbath ended at 6 PM.

Once you discover contradictory scriptural evidence AGAINST your theory … its time to fold your cards and cut your loses. Don’t try to FORCE the facts to fit your theory. Rather, let your conclusions flow from the scriptural facts, as revealed by the Holy Spirit.

Millions of people have examined this evidence over last 2000 years … and you think you are only recently discovering something all the others overlooked ? :ehh:

You stated that the Sabbath ended at 6:00 PM on Saturday night. Therefore by your own definition, that Sabbath would have started at 6:00 PM on Friday night. So what you are claiming is that the women prepared spices before 6:00 PM on Friday night.

That is not possible because it is stated in Matthew 27:57-61 that Joseph asked Pilate for the body of Jesus in the evening (after 6:00 PM the night of crucifixion), then prepared the body of Jesus, and then placed the body of Jesus in the tomb, while the women watched. “Now the women who had come with Him out of Galilee followed, and saw the tomb and how His body was laid. Then they returned and prepared spices and perfumes And on the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment.”

So based upon your claim, you have the women preparing spices on the Sabbath (which started at 6:00 PM on Friday night). But Luke says the women rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.

[Luke 23:50-56] And a man named Joseph, who was a member of the Council, a good and righteous man (he had not consented to their plan and action), a man from Arimathea, a city of the Jews, who was waiting for the kingdom of God; this man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. And he took it down and wrapped it in a linen cloth, and laid Him in a tomb cut into the rock, where no one had ever lain. It was the preparation day, and the Sabbath was about to begin. Now the women who had come with Him out of Galilee followed, and saw the tomb and how His body was laid. Then they returned and prepared spices and perfumes And on the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment.

[Matt. 27:57-61] When it was evening, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who himself had also become a disciple of Jesus. This man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then Pilate ordered it to be given to him. And Joseph took the body and wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock; and he rolled a large stone against the entrance of the tomb and went away. And Mary Magdalene was there, and the other Mary, sitting opposite the grave.

 

[Evan]

Evening in the Church starts at 4:00 (at least that is when we can begin to say Evening Prayer and have masses on the Eve of a Solemnity)

I think a Jewish day begins at sunset.

Evening in most peoples minds today is vague. If Jesus died at 3:00, why did Joe wait till 6:00 to ask for the body (at that time he could not have gotten it down from the cross as it was (according to your description) the sabbath).

Of course, maybe some of the people were using daylight savings time (ha ha).

 

[brb3]

You stated that the Sabbath ended at 6:00 PM on Saturday night. Therefore by your own definition, that Sabbath would have started at 6:00 PM on Friday night. So what you are claiming is that the women prepared spices before 6:00 PM on Friday night.

When I say 6 PM … that is an average time. Sundown is the traditional time used … which varies with seasons. Sundown in June doesn’t come til 9:30 … in winter @ 4:30 … and in April … probably around 6:30- 7 PM

So … Mary, and the women probably were able to work on preparation of Christ’s body til perhaps 7 PM on Good Friday. Maybe even as late as 8PM … Christ died at 3PM … and probably our saints had access to the body by 4PM that day.

 

[inkaneer]

You stated that the Sabbath ended at 6:00 PM on Saturday night. Therefore by your own definition, that Sabbath would have started at 6:00 PM on Friday night. So what you are claiming is that the women prepared spices before 6:00 PM on Friday night.

That is not possible because it is stated in Matthew 27:57-61 that Joseph asked Pilate for the body of Jesus in the evening (after 6:00 PM the night of crucifixion), then prepared the body of Jesus, and then placed the body of Jesus in the tomb, while the women watched. “Now the women who had come with Him out of Galilee followed, and saw the tomb and how His body was laid. Then they returned and prepared spices and perfumes And on the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment.”

So based upon your claim, you have the women preparing spices on the Sabbath (which started at 6:00 PM on Friday night). But Luke says the women rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.

[Luke 23:50-56] And a man named Joseph, who was a member of the Council, a good and righteous man (he had not consented to their plan and action), a man from Arimathea, a city of the Jews, who was waiting for the kingdom of God; this man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. And he took it down and wrapped it in a linen cloth, and laid Him in a tomb cut into the rock, where no one had ever lain. It was the preparation day, and the Sabbath was about to begin. Now the women who had come with Him out of Galilee followed, and saw the tomb and how His body was laid. Then they returned and prepared spices and perfumes And on the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment.

[Matt. 27:57-61] When it was evening, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who himself had also become a disciple of Jesus. This man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then Pilate ordered it to be given to him. And Joseph took the body and wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock; and he rolled a large stone against the entrance of the tomb and went away. And Mary Magdalene was there, and the other Mary, sitting opposite the grave.

The term evening denoted the last remaining hours of daylight before the day ended. It does not denote darkness. The very word evening has changed in its meaning over the years. Today it usually is thought of as the period of time from sunset the period from sunset or the evening meal to bedtime or in some locales the period of time from the evening meal to bedtime. HOWEVER, formerly the term evening meant the latter part and close of the day. So all this occurred on Friday not the Sabbath.

 

[richherleikson]

The term evening denoted the last remaining hours of daylight before the day ended. It does not denote darkness. The very word evening has changed in its meaning over the years. Today it usually is thought of as the period of time from sunset the period from sunset or the evening meal to bedtime or in some locales the period of time from the evening meal to bedtime. HOWEVER, formerly the term evening meant the latter part and close of the day. So all this occurred on Friday not the Sabbath.

[John 19:38-42] *After these things Joseph of Arimathea, being a disciple of Jesus, but a secret one for fear of the Jews, asked Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus; and Pilate granted permission. So he came and took away His body. Nicodemus, who had first come to Him by night, also came, bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about a hundred pounds weight. So they took the body of Jesus and bound it in linen wrappings with the spices, as is the burial custom of the Jews. Now in the place where He was crucified there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb in which no one had yet been laid. Therefore because of the Jewish day of preparation, since the tomb was nearby, they laid Jesus there. *

So are you saying that “Nicodemus, who had first come to Him by night” means that Nicodemus came before sunset?

Recall that the women who prepared the spices were there with Joseph and Nicodemus to see how these men had laid the body of Jesus in the tomb during the “NIGHT”.

[Mark 15:46-47] *Joseph bought a linen cloth, took Him down, wrapped Him in the linen cloth and laid Him in a tomb which had been hewn out in the rock; and he rolled a stone against the entrance of the tomb. Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses were looking on to see where He was laid. *

 

[inkaneer]

[John 19:38-42] *After these things Joseph of Arimathea, being a disciple of Jesus, but a secret one for fear of the Jews, asked Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus; and Pilate granted permission. So he came and took away His body. Nicodemus, who had first come to Him by night, also came, bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about a hundred pounds weight. So they took the body of Jesus and bound it in linen wrappings with the spices, as is the burial custom of the Jews. Now in the place where He was crucified there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb in which no one had yet been laid. Therefore because of the Jewish day of preparation, since the tomb was nearby, they laid Jesus there. *

So are you saying that “Nicodemus, who had first come to Him by night” means that Nicodemus came before sunset?

Recall that the women who prepared the spices were there with Joseph and Nicodemus to see how these men had laid the body of Jesus in the tomb during the “NIGHT”.

[Mark 15:46-47] *Joseph bought a linen cloth, took Him down, wrapped Him in the linen cloth and laid Him in a tomb which had been hewn out in the rock; and he rolled a stone against the entrance of the tomb. Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses were looking on to see where He was laid. *

Let’s not mix apples and oranges shall we? In John 19:38-42 where it says, '…Nicodemus, who had first come to Him by night," refers to John chapter 3. There it states:

“1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: 2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” [John 3:1-3

NOTE verse # 2. That was when Nicodemus came to Jesus by night. It was in Chapter 3 not chapter 19.

One more thing. You better first read what verses you quote here. Notice in the very passage you quoted, John 19:38-42, verse 42 which says:

“42 Therefore because of the Jewish day of preparation, since the tomb was nearby, they laid Jesus there.” [John 19:42]

Your own quoted passage says Jesus was placed in the grave on the day of preparation.
So it could not have been at night as you claim because then it would be the Sabbath. But the scripture stated quite clearly that it was the day of preparation before the Sabbath.
Luke says the same thing:

“50 Now there was a man named Joseph from the Jewish town of Arimathe’a. He was a member of the council, a good and righteous man, 51 who had not consented to their purpose and deed, and he was looking for the kingdom of God. 52 This man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. 53 Then he took it down and wrapped it in a linen shroud, and laid him in a rock-hewn tomb, where no one had ever yet been laid. 54 It was the day of Preparation, and the sabbath was beginning. 55 The women who had come with him from Galilee followed, and saw the tomb, and how his body was laid; 56 then they returned, and prepared spices and ointments. On the sabbath they rested according to the commandment.” [Luke24:50-56]

Notice Luke says the women rested on the Sabbath. The women saw where Jesus was laid in the tomb [verse 55] and had enough time to return to their homes and prepare spices and ointments [verse 56] then it says in verse 56 they rested on the Sabbath. Jesus died and was in the tomb on Friday, the day of preparation, before the Sabbath began.

 

[richherleikson]

Let’s not mix apples and oranges shall we? In John 19:38-42 where it says, '…Nicodemus, who had first come to Him by night," refers to John chapter 3. There it states:

“1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: 2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” [John 3:1-3

NOTE verse # 2. That was when Nicodemus came to Jesus by night. It was in Chapter 3 not chapter 19.

That is a reasonable interpretation, that the verse is referring to the earlier one.
[/quote]

 

[richherleikson]

One more thing. You better first read what verses you quote here. Notice in the very passage you quoted, John 19:38-42, verse 42 which says:

“42 Therefore because of the Jewish day of preparation, since the tomb was nearby, they laid Jesus there.” [John 19:42]

Your own quoted passage says Jesus was placed in the grave on the day of preparation.
So it could not have been at night as you claim because then it would be the Sabbath. But the scripture stated quite clearly that it was the day of preparation before the Sabbath.
Luke says the same thing:

“50 Now there was a man named Joseph from the Jewish town of Arimathe’a. He was a member of the council, a good and righteous man, 51 who had not consented to their purpose and deed, and he was looking for the kingdom of God. 52 This man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. 53 Then he took it down and wrapped it in a linen shroud, and laid him in a rock-hewn tomb, where no one had ever yet been laid. 54 It was the day of Preparation, and the sabbath was beginning. 55 The women who had come with him from Galilee followed, and saw the tomb, and how his body was laid; 56 then they returned, and prepared spices and ointments. On the sabbath they rested according to the commandment.” [Luke24:50-56]

Notice Luke says the women rested on the Sabbath. The women saw where Jesus was laid in the tomb [verse 55] and had enough time to return to their homes and prepare spices and ointments [verse 56] then it says in verse 56 they rested on the Sabbath. Jesus died and was in the tomb on Friday, the day of preparation, before the Sabbath began.

There are still the verses in Mark 16:1-2, “When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, bought spices, so that they might come and anoint Him. Very early on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb when the sun had risen.”

If it was the preparation day before a “Saturday” Sabbath, with sundown to sundown as being the definition of a “Saturday” Sabbath, then the women would have, according to your interpretation of Mark 16:1-2, bought spices after sundown [at night].

[John 20:1] Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene came early to the tomb, while it was still dark, and saw the stone already taken away from the tomb.

So you are saying that the women bought spices during the night after the “Saturday” Sabbath?

Not only that, you are also claiming that the women prepared the spices one day before on Friday between the time Christ Jesus died after 3:00 PM and sunset. Even though Joseph traveled to Pilate to ask for the body of Jesus from Pilate when it was evening. And then Pilate requests to hear from the centurion that Jesus is dead. Then Joseph travels back to the crucifixion site. And then the body is removed from the cross. And then the body of Jesus is prepared with a 100 pounds of spices. And then the body of Jesus was laid in the tomb. And then after that, the women still have time to return home and prepare spices before sunset, after seeing how the body was laid?

 

[choy]

Not only that, you are also claiming that the women prepared the spices one day before on Friday between the time Christ Jesus died after 3:00 PM and sunset. Even though Joseph traveled to Pilate to ask for the body of Jesus from Pilate when it was evening. And then Pilate requests to hear from the centurion that Jesus is dead. Then Joseph travels back to the crucifixion site. And then the body is removed from the cross. And then the body of Jesus is prepared with a 100 pounds of spices. And then the body of Jesus was laid in the tomb. And then after that, the women still have time to return home and prepare spices before sunset, after seeing how the body was laid?

the women could have gone to buy the spices as soon as Jesus had died. they didn’t have to wait for the burial, they knew they would need to anoint His body. perhaps its the reason they weren’t able to do this on Friday, they ran out of time, sunset came and the Sabbath began

 

[inkaneer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by richherleikson
Not only that, you are also claiming that the women prepared the spices one day before on Friday between the time Christ Jesus died after 3:00 PM and sunset. Even though Joseph traveled to Pilate to ask for the body of Jesus from Pilate when it was evening. And then Pilate requests to hear from the centurion that Jesus is dead. Then Joseph travels back to the crucifixion site. And then the body is removed from the cross. And then the body of Jesus is prepared with a 100 pounds of spices. And then the body of Jesus was laid in the tomb. And then after that, the women still have time to return home and prepare spices before sunset, after seeing how the body was laid?

the women could have gone to buy the spices as soon as Jesus had died. they didn’t have to wait for the burial, they knew they would need to anoint His body. perhaps its the reason they weren’t able to do this on Friday, they ran out of time, sunset came and the Sabbath began

Exactly, that lines up perfectly with John 19:39-40:

“39 Nicode’mus also, who had at first come to him by night, came bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about a hundred pounds’ weight. 40 They took the body of Jesus, and bound it in linen cloths with the spices, as is the burial custom of the Jews.” [John 19:39-40]

The women left to obtain the spices and thus did not know that Nicodemus had already procured them. Nicodemus was not at the crucifixion so could have easily gone to Pilate. He could already have bought the spices and the linen. In fact some have postulated that the Last Supper was held in a room of Nicodemus’ house and the linen used to wrap Jesus was the table cloth from the Last Supper. This supposedly postulated by a researcher who claims there is wine stains on the cloth [The Shroud of Turin] in addition to blood. Anyway, the soldiers, once they broke the legs of the two thieves and certified they were dead did not need to hang around on Calvary. The show was over and the soldiers and the people would have returned and all this could have occurred in rapid order or even simultaneously. So the body was taken down from the cross, properly prepared for burial and buried on the day of preparation. Notice this is written by John who was an eyewitness to these events. He even states there was about a hundred pounds weight of spices, That is equivalent to about 75 pounds in modern terms as a pound weight was about 12 ounces then. Today it is 16 ounces. Still a considerable amount and not something you could carry around in a pocket or concealed in any way. As for when the women prepared or bought spices I don’t think it really matters. I can see where each of them might do it on their own with one doing it that day while the other did it after the Sabbath.

 

[richherleikson]

Luke 2:2 Greek upper case, lower case, Letter Name, 12 BCE Roman Census Syria Governor, KJV, 22-25 CE Syria Governor NASB

Κ 	κ 	Kappa 		C 	C 	Qu
Υ 	υ 	Upsilon 	o 	y 	i
Ρ 	ρ 	Rho 		r 	r 	r
Η 	η 	Eta 		vi 	e 	i
Ν 	ν 	Nu 		n 	n 	n
Ι 	ι 	Iota 			i 	i
Ο 	ο 	Omicron 	u 	u 	u
Υ 	υ 	Upsilon 	s 	s 	s

 

[Joshua27]

I don’t know if this was brought up yet, but the Messiah couldn’t have had a 3&1/2 year ministry either…which removes at least 2 years off the assumed death date.

Reason 1: Just from a prophecy standpoint; the Lamb was supposed to be a PERFECT fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecy, which said, “present a lamb, without blemish, of the first year” [Exodus 12:5; Lev. 14:10; Exekiel 46:13] whenever atonement was to be made. This established a blueprint the true Messiah would fulfill but while we say he was “the lamb” and “without blemish (sin)”, we (however) accept that he was (spiritually) 3+ years old (from baptism).

If the Messiah ministered for 3 years - sticking to the qualifications for a sacrificial lamb - he would be considered an old Ram, not a new-born Lamb, thus not qualified for sacrifice.

Reason 2: Scripture proves that there’s a Passover & Feast of Unleavened Bread every 1st month of each year without fail…so whenever a Passover is detailed we can safely assume that we’re in a new year. Also, the “Passover & Feast” REQUIRES all Jews to travel to the holy land - Jerusalem - for purification; to offer their animal sacrifice for atonement.

While there are 3 Passovers detailed in the gospel of John (which supports at least a “3 year ministry”), only two of those Passovers are recognized by the Messiah:

1) John 2:13 “and the Jews’ passover was at hand, and [the Messiah] went up to Jerusalem. 14. and found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting”

[Jews who needed an animal for sacrifice were allowed to purchase one OFF the temple, this time they were **it the temple buying & selling animals, so the Messiah reprimanded them.]

2) John 11:55 “and the Jews’ passover was nigh at hand; and many went out of the country up to Jerusalem before the passover to purify themselves. 56. Then [Pharisees] sought for [the Messiah] and spake among themselves, as they stood in the temple, 'What you think that he will not come to the feast?’”

[Recall in John 11:53 the Pharisees are plotting to put the Messiah to death, so they are wondering whether He’d show up. However, in John 12:12, the Messiah is recorded once again traveling to Jerusalem to honor this one too…even unto death].

3) John 6:4 we have the single sentence, “And the passover, a feast of the Jews, was near.”

Not only is this verse a completely isolated sentence from the rest of the narrative, but the Messiah makes no mention of the feast nor expels any effort to travel to Jerusalem.

John 6:1-13 details the Miracle of feeding the multitude with “5 loaves & 2 fishes”, the same event that’s detailed in Matthew 14:17, Mark 6:38 and Luke 9:16 and yet not one account mentions any Passover & Unleavened Bread feast occuring during this time.

REALIZE that this multitude was of Jewish people (who just witnessed the miracles the Messiah and apostles were performing before John the Baptist was beheaded). These Jewish people started following the Messiah when he departed for a deserted place (after hearing John was dead)…and the Messiah fed them.

Again the multitude were Jewish people, so IF there was truly a Passover soon coming [nigh] in John 6:4, the multitude - as well as the Messiah - would’ve continued their tradition and made traveled to Jerusalem, like they did for each of the other Passovers…but the Messiah went to Capernaum, and then to Galilee.]

Thus John 6:4 is a corruption of the Gospel and should be removed altogether, otherwise we must conclude that the Son of God not only ignored God’s feast day, but he lead thousands of Jewish people to simultaneously ignore God’s feast days as well.

---

By these 2 reasons alone, the true Messiah MUST have had only a 1 year ministry.

 

[inkaneer]

I don’t know if this was brought up yet, but the Messiah couldn’t have had a 3&1/2 year ministry either…which removes at least 2 years off the assumed death date.

Reason 1: Just from a prophecy standpoint; the Lamb was supposed to be a PERFECT fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecy, which said, “present a lamb, without blemish, of the first year” [Exodus 12:5; Lev. 14:10; Exekiel 46:13] whenever atonement was to be made. This established a blueprint the true Messiah would fulfill but while we say he was “the lamb” and “without blemish (sin)”, we (however) accept that he was (spiritually) 3+ years old (from baptism).

If the Messiah ministered for 3 years - sticking to the qualifications for a sacrificial lamb - he would be considered an old Ram, not a new-born Lamb, thus not qualified for sacrifice.

Reason 2: Scripture proves that there’s a Passover & Feast of Unleavened Bread every 1st month of each year without fail…so whenever a Passover is detailed we can safely assume that we’re in a new year. Also, the “Passover & Feast” REQUIRES all Jews to travel to the holy land - Jerusalem - for purification; to offer their animal sacrifice for atonement.

While there are 3 Passovers detailed in the gospel of John (which supports at least a “3 year ministry”), only two of those Passovers are recognized by the Messiah:

1) John 2:13 “and the Jews’ passover was at hand, and [the Messiah] went up to Jerusalem. 14. and found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting”

[Jews who needed an animal for sacrifice were allowed to purchase one OFF the temple, this time they were **it the temple

buying & selling animals, so the Messiah reprimanded them.]

2) John 11:55 “and the Jews’ passover was nigh at hand; and many went out of the country up to Jerusalem before the passover to purify themselves. 56. Then [Pharisees] sought for [the Messiah] and spake among themselves, as they stood in the temple, 'What you think that he will not come to the feast?’”

[Recall in John 11:53 the Pharisees are plotting to put the Messiah to death, so they are wondering whether He’d show up. However, in John 12:12, the Messiah is recorded once again traveling to Jerusalem to honor this one too…even unto death].

3) John 6:4 we have the single sentence, “And the passover, a feast of the Jews, was near.”

Not only is this verse a completely isolated sentence from the rest of the narrative, but the Messiah makes no mention of the feast nor expels any effort to travel to Jerusalem.

John 6:1-13 details the Miracle of feeding the multitude with “5 loaves & 2 fishes”, the same event that’s detailed in Matthew 14:17, Mark 6:38 and Luke 9:16 and yet not one account mentions any Passover & Unleavened Bread feast occuring during this time.

REALIZE that this multitude was of Jewish people (who just witnessed the miracles the Messiah and apostles were performing before John the Baptist was beheaded). These Jewish people started following the Messiah when he departed for a deserted place (after hearing John was dead)…and the Messiah fed them.

Again the multitude were Jewish people, so IF there was truly a Passover soon coming [nigh] in John 6:4, the multitude - as well as the Messiah - would’ve continued their tradition and made traveled to Jerusalem, like they did for each of the other Passovers…but the Messiah went to Capernaum, and then to Galilee.]

Thus John 6:4 is a corruption of the Gospel and should be removed altogether, otherwise we must conclude that the Son of God not only ignored God’s feast day, but he lead thousands of Jewish people to simultaneously ignore God’s feast days as well.

---

By these 2 reasons alone, the true Messiah MUST have had only a 1 year ministry.

You make several assumptions which cause you to error in your conclusions. First of all, the one year requirement for lambs. Sheep after one year are subject to shearing and are no longer lambs. So the OT Testament requirement was that the sacrifice was to be entirely God’s and thus any sheep that man first took the wool from was not eligible.

Second, silence in the scriptures regarding the Passover [or for that matter anything else] should only be interpreted as silence and nothing more. To interpret otherwise is unwise and leads to error as you so illustrate. Furthermore, while the scripture says that the feast of Passover was near it does not say how near. a day? a week? a month? Seems to me you made an unwarranted interpretation that Passover was imminent but scripture does not say that at all.

As for John 6:4, please tell us by what authority you possess that enables you to take away from God’s Word.

 

[richherleikson]

By these 2 reasons alone, the true Messiah MUST have had only a 1 year ministry.

Irenaeus (Bishop of Lyons and Church Father of the second century) wrote the following in “Against Heresies”, book 2, chapter 22, section 6.

But, besides this, those very Jews who then disputed with the Lord Jesus Christ have most clearly indicated the same thing. For when the Lord said to them, Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day; and he saw it, and was glad, they answered Him, You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham? Now, such language is fittingly applied to one who has already passed the age of forty, without having as yet reached his fiftieth year, yet is not far from this latter period. But to one who is only thirty years old it would unquestionably be said, You are not yet forty years old. For those who wished to convict Him of falsehood would certainly not extend the number of His years far beyond the age which they saw He had attained; but they mentioned a period near His real age, whether they had truly ascertained this out of the entry in the public register, or simply made a conjecture from what they observed that He was above forty years old, and that He certainly was not one of only thirty years of age. For it is altogether unreasonable to suppose that they were mistaken by twenty years, when they wished to prove Him younger than the times of Abraham. For what they saw, that they also expressed; and He whom they beheld was not a mere phantasm, but an actual being of flesh and blood. He did not then want much of being fifty years old; and, in accordance with that fact, they said to Him, You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham? He did not therefore preach only for one year, nor did He suffer in the twelfth month of the year. For the period included between the thirtieth and the fiftieth year can never be regarded as one year, unless indeed, among their Æons, there be so long years assigned to those who sit in their ranks with Bythus in the Pleroma; of which beings Homer the poet, too, has spoken, doubtless being inspired by the Mother of their [system of] error:—

Οἱ δὲ θεοὶ πὰρ Ζηνὶ καθήμενοι ἠγορόωντο
Χρυσέῳ ἐν δαπέδῳ:

*which we may thus render:

The gods sat round, while Jove presided o’er,
And converse held upon the golden floor.* newadvent.org/fathers/0103222.htm]

 

[Joshua27]

You make several assumptions which cause you to error in your conclusions. First of all, the one year requirement for lambs. Sheep after one year are subject to shearing and are no longer lambs. So the OT Testament requirement was that the sacrifice was to be entirely God’s and thus any sheep that man first took the wool from was not eligible.

This is true…but you’re overlooking the fact that years were NOT counted the same in Hebrew times as they are now, which (honestly) is the reason why we have such a problem with reconciling issues such as this.

Back then when something was born they were within their 1st year, considered a “yearling” (this was true for human babies as well as animals). In other words, a newborn WAS a 1yr old…until it hit its 1st birthday to become 2 years old. There was no such thing as a “day/week/month old”. This is exactly why the phrase used in Exodus 12:5, Lev. 14:10 and Exekiel 46:13 is “…of the 1st year”; it means a lamb within the 1st year of life. Of course, any lambs after 1year are not eligible because they’re then considered 2 years old, which is exactly my point…the Messiah was supposed to perfectly fulfill the prophecy, so for this reason alone, a 3 year ministry is false.

[Also, I find it puzzling that though I gave three passages to prove this requirement, you’re essentially saying, “no he wasn’t required to perfectly fulfill this prophecy”. …which also suggests “no prophecy is required to be perfectly fulfilled by the Messiah?”]

Second, silence in the scriptures regarding the Passover [or for that matter anything else] should only be interpreted as silence and nothing more. To interpret otherwise is unwise and leads to error as you so illustrate.

Furthermore, while the scripture says that the feast of Passover was near it does not say how near. a day? a week? a month? Seems to me you made an unwarranted interpretation that Passover was imminent but scripture does not say that at all.

This would be a good point, except the 3 &1/2 years the Church believes (ITSELF) is based on the same interpretation; based on what isn’t said. The gospels never specifically say anything about any number of years passing or “that the Messiah spent 3 years ministering”…such is based on interpretation; the same interpretation which also shows that ‘when a major event was upon the Messiah (& the Jews) the gospel detail them responding to it’. Passover is a major event.

Factually speaking, the Messiah was here to spread the gospel of the Kingdom (we know this as truth); a function that required people to hear the message…So if nothing else, He needed to be where the people were.

If the Passover was said to be “near”, The Multitude of Jewish people would’ve been making their way up to Jerusalem out of tradition because they needed time to: (a) walk the distance AND (b) purchase their animal AND (c) care for, live with & inspect that animal for another 5 days…all before the Preparation Day of the feast.

There wouldn’t have been a multitude around to feed with 5 loaves and 2 fishes if “the Passover was near (even a month away)”.

As for John 6:4, please tell us by what authority you possess that enables you to take away from God’s Word.

The Bible is not the Word of God.

The CC takes rightful credit for assembling the books of the Bible, taking credit for creating the Bible out of its own Authority, which it did create. But if the Bible and the Word of God are the same, then the CC is claiming to have created the Word of God (which is impossible and false).

“In the beginning was the Word…and the Word was made flesh (not paperback)”. The Bible is a book; a record of The Word of God. The Word of God can NEVER be corrupted, but a record book can…and this one has been corrupted at John 6:4.

—To Rich—

I’ve read your reply from Bishop Irenaeus, and want to make note that not once does the Bishop mention the prophecy that we all agree the Messiah MUST have fulfilled Perfectly. Again, IF the Messiah was the “perfect” fulfillment of the prophecy of being “The Sacrificial Lamb” then he must perfectly fulfill all aspects of it…such as even the aspect of “not a broken bone”. The Messiah must be sacrificed (as a lamb) within the 1st year of his ministry.

The Bishop reasons For those who wished to convict Him of falsehood would certainly not extend the number of His years far beyond the age which they saw He had attained;] and then uses this as a foundation for his conclusion without realizing that the Jews [the Pharisees] did not know of the Messiah prior to his ministry, let alone know his age. They weren’t even aware of this man’s existence until they received word from the people of his miracles and contrary doctrines. WE (the readers) are told how old the Messiah is by the narrator, but why do we draw the conclusion that the Pharisees [whenever the word “Jews” is used it means “the Pharisees”] also knew?

There’s no reason to suspect they assumed this “stranger” was any younger than his 40s just by looking at him [seeing a wild beard and hair] especially without modern grooming tools [we know that facial hair makes anyone look older than they are]…likewise people can tell if one’s within their 50s simply because men usually have some greying of hair.

 

[inkaneer]

This is true…but you’re overlooking the fact that years were NOT counted the same in Hebrew times as they are now, which (honestly) is the reason why we have such a problem with reconciling issues such as this.

Not really. The Hebrew calendar year averages 363.3 days per year; comprised of 12 lunar months with 29.530573496 astronomical days per month; for a 354 day year; except on leap years where an extra month is added in to adjust to solar reckoning: To approximately adjust to a solar calendar, a leap month called Adar II comprised of 29 days, is added on the 3rd, 6th, 8th, 11th, 14th and 17th year based upon a 19 year cycle.
In contrast to a Solar Calendar of 365.2422 days per year (Today’s Gregorian Calendar) 30.43685 astronomical days, per month, average. So the difference averages out to about 1.9 days per year difference

Back then when something was born they were within their 1st year, considered a “yearling” (this was true for human babies as well as animals). In other words, a newborn WAS a 1yr old…until it hit its 1st birthday to become 2 years old. There was no such thing as a “day/week/month old”. This is exactly why the phrase used in Exodus 12:5, Lev. 14:10 and Exekiel 46:13 is “…of the 1st year”; it means a lamb within the 1st year of life. Of course, any lambs after 1year are not eligible because they’re then considered 2 years old, which is exactly my point…the Messiah was supposed to perfectly fulfill the prophecy, so for this reason alone, a 3 year ministry is false.

But to follow your line of reasoning Jesus would have to be sacrificed as a yearling, that is before his first birthday. So your reasoning is in error.

[Also, I find it puzzling that though I gave three passages to prove this requirement, you’re essentially saying, “no he wasn’t required to perfectly fulfill this prophecy”. …which also suggests “no prophecy is required to be perfectly fulfilled by the Messiah?”]

The point is that your so called requirement is not a requirement at all. I gave you the reason for the lamb to be less than one year old.

This would be a good point, except the 3 &1/2 years the Church believes (ITSELF) is based on the same interpretation; based on what isn’t said. The gospels never specifically say anything about any number of years passing or “that the Messiah spent 3 years ministering”…such is based on interpretation; the same interpretation which also shows that ‘when a major event was upon the Messiah (& the Jews) the gospel detail them responding to it’. Passover is a major event.

Factually speaking, the Messiah was here to spread the gospel of the Kingdom (we know this as truth); a function that required people to hear the message…So if nothing else, He needed to be where the people were.

If the Passover was said to be “near”, The Multitude of Jewish people would’ve been making their way up to Jerusalem out of tradition because they needed time to: (a) walk the distance AND (b) purchase their animal AND (c) care for, live with & inspect that animal for another 5 days…all before the Preparation Day of the feast.

There wouldn’t have been a multitude around to feed with 5 loaves and 2 fishes if “the Passover was near (even a month away)”.

Just how long do you think it takes to walk from Galilee to Jerusalem? Also, remember that you are dealing with the Gospel of John. John is not interested in strict chronology as the synoptics gospels are. His gospel is more theological and the chronology is disjointed. That is why in Chapter 3 &4 Jesus is in Jerusalem [Judea] and departs for Galilee. In chapter 5 the scene switches and Jesus is back in Jerusalem. John does not say Jesus went back to Jerusalem he just says He is in Jerusalem. In Chapter 6 Jesus is suddenly in Galilee again and the Passover is near. But in Chapter 7 Jesus is still in Galilee but now it is close to the feast of Tabernacles. What happenened in the 6-7 months between Chapter 6 and Chapter 7 ??? John does not say.

The Bible is not the Word of God.

The Bible is the written word of God as men inspired by the Holy Spirit wrote it.

The CC takes rightful credit for assembling the books of the Bible, taking credit for creating the Bible out of its own Authority, which it did create. But if the Bible and the Word of God are the same, then the CC is claiming to have created the Word of God (which is impossible and false).

Some more of your erroneous logic. You confuse the Word of God meaning the Written and Oral Traditions [teachings] with The Word. See your own quote from John 1:

“In the beginning was the Word…and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.” [John 1:1…14]

Nowhere in those 14 verses does the term “Word of God” appear. I don’t know who is in charge of your Bible study, if anyone. You are making errors on some pretty basic and simple stuff that leads me to conclude you are embarked on some sort of self study. That can be dangerous.

 

[Joshua27]

But to follow your line of reasoning Jesus would have to be sacrificed as a yearling, that is before his first birthday. So your reasoning is in error.

No…This is exactly what the Messiah’s baptism was for; to be “born of ‘water [John’s baptism] and of Spirit [God’s dove]’ is to be born again”. This is why the Messiah told John to baptize him [to fulfill all righteousness]. The Messiah was spiritually born [into his ministry] at that exact moment…He became a spiritual lamb of [within] the 1st year of his new (spiritual) life. And as a yearling Lamb, before the 1st year was through he was meant to die to fulfill the prophecy (as stated more than once in Scripture).

The point is that your so called requirement is not a requirement at all. I gave you the reason for the lamb to be less than one year old.

How is it “my” requirement when it’s stated in scripture more than once? The sacrificial lamb MUST be of the 1st year.

[With respect, I think we’re missing each other’s point…] When you say “I gave you the reason for the lamb to be less than one year old”, your claiming “there’s such a thing as being younger than 1 year old.” But what I’m saying is - in the ancient Hebrew mindset - “there is no such thing as being less than 1 year old”. You are 1yr the exact moment you are born; from the womb, you are of the 1st year of your life. This is what I meant when I said “they did not reckon a year the way we do.”

Today, we consider ourselves “1 year older” AFTER 1 year of life has passed (under our belts).

…but this isn’t how the ancient Hebrew people reckoned lifetime…

They considered themselves “of a year” DURING that exact year of life…before that year had passed. A “day old”, “week old” or “month old” IS defined as a “yearling” (i.e. ‘of the 1st year’ of life).

Just how long do you think it takes to walk from Galilee to Jerusalem?

Pray tell, how long? And while your at it how long does it take to find an available room (as not everyone who ventured to the holy land lived there)…and how long to select your sacrificial animal, and how long to live with it for a while, and then to prepare it for the feast? How long? Not months (of course) but it was significant to where they needed to allot time for everything, even for the thousands of others who would be doing the same exact thing.

When the Passover is “near” people began their preparations. The multitude of John 6:4 did not begin preparations, thus Passover was not nigh.

Also, remember that you are dealing with the Gospel of John. John is not interested in strict chronology as the synoptics gospels are. His gospel is more theological and the chronology is disjointed.

So then you’re saying - for chronology sake - John’s Gospel is (comparitively) not as reliable? This is exactly what I’ve been arguing. The other Gospels - which you just confirmed as strict(er) in chronology - do NOT even mention a Passover during the ‘5 loaves & 2 fishes’ feeding of the multitude (which is right after the beheading of John the Baptist). And yet, it is ONLY John’s Gospel - this “chronologically less reliable” Gospel - that mentions 3 Passovers; the same “chronologically lacking” Gospel the Church uses to prove a chronological 3 & 1/2 year ministry.

You just confirmed my point. John 6:4 is a chronological error and should be removed, restoring the Messiah’s ministry to “1 year” before death.

The Bible is the written word of God as men inspired by the Holy Spirit wrote it.

Some more of your erroneous logic. You confuse the Word of God meaning the Written and Oral Traditions [teachings] with The Word.

:ehh: …so…you’re saying “The Word” is not the “Word of God”?

Let me make sure I understand what you’re saying:

1. Word of God = “Written and Oral Traditions [teachings]”

while…

1. The Word = “The Son of God”

…proving that John 1 is speaking about the Messiah:

“In the beginning was the Word…and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.” [John 1:1…14]

…Ok…If this is the case then someone had better correct “John the Revelator’s” understanding because here’s what he wrote about the SAME Messiah (as inspired by a direct vision from the Messiah):

Revelation 19:13 "[describing the Messiah] He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God" (pick any translation you want it’ll say the same thing).

If A = B and B = C then A = C.

If The Word = The Messiah (John 1) and The Messiah = The Word of God (Rev. 19:13), then The Word = The Word of God, right? So then the CC did NOT create the Messiah (Who is “The Word” & “The Word of God”), though they created the Bible.

[Truly…making errors on some pretty basic and simple stuff IS dangerous.]

…Which brings me back to my point the Bible is NOT the Word of God but a record of the Word of God, and this record has been corrupted at John 6:4. The Messiah’s ministry lasted approx 1 year, knocking 2 years off the death date.

 

[brb3]

Back then when something was born they were within their 1st year, considered a “yearling” (this was true for human babies as well as animals). In other words, a newborn WAS a 1yr old…until it hit its 1st birthday to become 2 years old. There was no such thing as a “day/week/month old”. This is exactly why the phrase used in Exodus 12:5, Lev. 14:10 and Exekiel 46:13 is “…of the 1st year”; it means a lamb within the 1st year of life. Of course, any lambs after 1year are not eligible because they’re then considered 2 years old, which is exactly my point…the Messiah was supposed to perfectly fulfill the prophecy, so for this reason alone, a 3 year ministry is false.

.

:hypno: Whats the conversion of sheep years to human years ? At least 3 … I’d guess.

You’re being ridicuously literal with scripture. Compare apples with apples … or do the conversion.

Afterall, Christ was the fulfillment of prophesy on DAY 1. Do you think he did not possess the H.S. from the womb, ---- when John the Baptist did …per scripture ?

 

[inkaneer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by inkaneer
The point is that your so called requirement is not a requirement at all. I gave you the reason for the lamb to be less than one year old."

How is it “my” requirement when it’s stated in scripture more than once? The sacrificial lamb MUST be of the 1st year.

[With respect, I think we’re missing each other’s point…] When you say “I gave you the reason for the lamb to be less than one year old”, your claiming “there’s such a thing as being younger than 1 year old.” But what I’m saying is - in the ancient Hebrew mindset - “there is no such thing as being less than 1 year old”. You are 1yr the exact moment you are born; from the womb, you are of the 1st year of your life. This is what I meant when I said “they did not reckon a year the way we do.”

Today, we consider ourselves “1 year older” AFTER 1 year of life has passed (under our belts).

…but this isn’t how the ancient Hebrew people reckoned lifetime…

They considered themselves “of a year” DURING that exact year of life…before that year had passed. A “day old”, “week old” or “month old” IS defined as a “yearling” (i.e. ‘of the 1st year’ of life).

Jesus was called the lamb of God but he wasn’t a lamb. Therefore, the requirements of sheep do not apply to Jesus. If you recall Abraham was to sacrifice his son also. But his son was not one year old.

Now if you want to toss out John 6:4 then how about the other two verses where John mentions a passover. I am speaking of John 2:23:

" Now when he was in Jerusalem at the Passover feast, many believed in his name when they saw the signs which he did;" John 2:23

and John 11:55:

“Now the Passover of the Jews was at hand, and many went up from the country to Jerusalem before the Passover, to purify themselves.” John 11:55

Those two verses along with John 6:4 indicate three Passovers and I do believe Passover occurred but once a year. Also John 11:55 throws cold water on your statement that every Jew went to Jerusalem for Passover. It says “many went”. Many,not all, went.

So you one year theory is rebuked.

 

[Dawgtired]

Brand new to this site so, “Hi everyone”!

My understanding for the number of years Christ ministered on earth is that it could be anywhere from a little over two and up to three. The only reason for this assumption is that three different Passovers are mentioned during the ministry.