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lurdes
Guest
Why do the jws believe that Jesus didn’t die on a cross, that it was just a stake with his arms over his head?
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tomshaikh
Guest
ANSWER IS NO
Hi There, Let me correct you here. JWS didn’t believes that he die on a cross Muslims do. And in Islam for adulter if he is not married we have 100 lashes for punishment and if he is married than its death for him. Let me quote verses from last testament from Allah.
Chapter/Surah (4): An-Nisa
And because of their saying (in boast), “We killed Messiah 'Īsā (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allâh,” - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of 'Īsā (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not *: (157) But Allâh raised him 'Īsā (Jesus)] up (with his body and soul) unto Himself (and he A.S. is in the heavens). And Allâh is Ever All-Powerful, All-Wise. (158)
Hope this answer you question. Good thinking.*
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BibleSteve
Guest
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cascherman
Guest
The previous poster I don’t think understood your question, but here is my go at it. BibleSteve I’m sure will supply you with a link to the JW website. edit ah, I see Steve has chimed in.
They believe with the conversion of Constantine the cross symbol was introduced into Christian culture as a symbol of worship due to the influence of Constantine’s previous religion, paganism. It is a way to disqualify all of Christianity that holds the cross as the device of Christ’s death, and in turn hold that symbol dear.
Unfortunately it is mostly speculation, as we do not have any true way of knowing what shape the ‘stauros’ was that Christ died on. There were many shapes used by the Romans at that time; a stake, cross, an X, a T, etc. But, we do have information from the Bible that would establish a considerable case for the Cross as opposed to the stake.
And historical evidence:
This is a touchy subject with a JW though because #1- There is not much evidence honestly, saying one way or another, because the Romans practiced both ways and ‘stauros’ could mean both and #2- Just like Christmas, the Watchtower and the JW community used to use the Cross as a religious symbol. But, the light is getting brighter…
… as they will say.
They believe with the conversion of Constantine the cross symbol was introduced into Christian culture as a symbol of worship due to the influence of Constantine’s previous religion, paganism. It is a way to disqualify all of Christianity that holds the cross as the device of Christ’s death, and in turn hold that symbol dear.
Unfortunately it is mostly speculation, as we do not have any true way of knowing what shape the ‘stauros’ was that Christ died on. There were many shapes used by the Romans at that time; a stake, cross, an X, a T, etc. But, we do have information from the Bible that would establish a considerable case for the Cross as opposed to the stake.
If he were killed on a stake there would have been only one nail in his hands.
And historical evidence:
The Roman practice of carrying the ‘patibulum’, or the cross piece of the cross, to the site of execution for humiliation purposes, is further evidence that there was indeed a cross piece. Christ had to carry something (we know he did from the verse), and there is much more historical evidence of a ‘yoke’ being commonly used (**specifically **across the shoulders) than a executee carrying just a stake he could muster it.
This is a touchy subject with a JW though because #1- There is not much evidence honestly, saying one way or another, because the Romans practiced both ways and ‘stauros’ could mean both and #2- Just like Christmas, the Watchtower and the JW community used to use the Cross as a religious symbol. But, the light is getting brighter…
… as they will say.
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Charlie_Zeaiter
Guest
Hi lurdes,
The JWs (Jehovah Witnesses) believe the crucifixion took place on just a pole/stake, as opposed to the cross because of an ancient translation of the scripture.
“Cross” is a English word translated from the Greek work “stauros”. But the JWs believe the correct translation should be “stake”, not “cross”.
(I’m not sure if muslims believe it was a cross or stake, but it wouldn’t matter - as tomsheikh mentions above, muslims don’t believe Jesus died by crucifixion.)
I also heard that the snake on the pole by Moses was a prefigure to the cross (Jn 3:14). I’m not sure if that interpretation has any recognition by the Catholic Church.
Anyway, I don’t mean to undermine any JWs here; I hope we can hear from them too.
The JWs (Jehovah Witnesses) believe the crucifixion took place on just a pole/stake, as opposed to the cross because of an ancient translation of the scripture.
“Cross” is a English word translated from the Greek work “stauros”. But the JWs believe the correct translation should be “stake”, not “cross”.
(I’m not sure if muslims believe it was a cross or stake, but it wouldn’t matter - as tomsheikh mentions above, muslims don’t believe Jesus died by crucifixion.)
I also heard that the snake on the pole by Moses was a prefigure to the cross (Jn 3:14). I’m not sure if that interpretation has any recognition by the Catholic Church.
Anyway, I don’t mean to undermine any JWs here; I hope we can hear from them too.
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cascherman
Guest
You will see the copy-paste job that Steve has provided in those posts he linked you to makes use of selective passages in a few lexicons that will in, most likely, the next and previous parts contradict JW theology. Whether it be with the Trinity or who Michael the archangel is.
Anyone with almost any belief can find someone to support them. But, by far, the majority of the historical and religious scholarship still hold that the Cross was the most likely mode of execution.
And again, the JW organization has not always held to this claim. The cross was used by JW’s until the 1950’s. Every JW will tell you that they have the fullness of the truth, and yet they somehow are allowed to contradict themselves and flip flop theology.
Anyone with almost any belief can find someone to support them. But, by far, the majority of the historical and religious scholarship still hold that the Cross was the most likely mode of execution.
And again, the JW organization has not always held to this claim. The cross was used by JW’s until the 1950’s. Every JW will tell you that they have the fullness of the truth, and yet they somehow are allowed to contradict themselves and flip flop theology.
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lurdes
Guest
ANSWER IS NO
Hi There, Let me correct you here. JWS didn’t believes that he die on a cross Muslims do. And in Islam for adulter if he is not married we have 100 lashes for punishment and if he is married than its death for him. Let me quote verses from last testament from Allah.
Chapter/Surah (4): An-Nisa
And because of their saying (in boast), “We killed Messiah 'Īsā (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allâh,” - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of 'Īsā (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not *: (157) But Allâh raised him 'Īsā (Jesus)] up (with his body and soul) unto Himself (and he A.S. is in the heavens). And Allâh is Ever All-Powerful, All-Wise. (158)
Hope this answer you question. Good thinking.*
thanks for answering my question but that confuse memore
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cascherman
Guest
lol, we have a few Muslims on the site that chime in on the Christian debates with other Christians, which they are welcome to do, but you will find they usually put in the Islam side of things, which only adds another debate to the debate and rarely answers the question.thanks for answering my question but that confuse me
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Charlie_Zeaiter
Guest
I think you’re question confused him too.thanks for answering my question but that confuse me
It appears to tomsheikh that you were asking whether or not Jesus was crucified. (Of course, muslims believe he wasn’t crucified. [See http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html”]Qur’an 4:157])
But I gather you have no doubt that the crucifixion took place, and that you are just asking whether He was crucified on a cross or a stake.
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BibleSteve
Guest
The truth of the matter is there are good arguments I’ve seen pointing to a stake and other good arguments pointing to a cross.
JW publications are not the only ones pointing out evidence of a stake. Plenty of other scholarly reference books point to a stake.
For those who are interested in learning more here’s a very comprehensive link with plenty of discussion about both theories.
I personally don’t see the value of arguing over the word “stauros” and “xylon” or how many nails were used to kill Jesus.
The point was the value of his sacrifice, not the shape of the execution instrument.
JW publications are not the only ones pointing out evidence of a stake. Plenty of other scholarly reference books point to a stake.
For those who are interested in learning more here’s a very comprehensive link with plenty of discussion about both theories.
I personally don’t see the value of arguing over the word “stauros” and “xylon” or how many nails were used to kill Jesus.
The point was the value of his sacrifice, not the shape of the execution instrument.
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paarsurrey
Guest
Hi
They were in a doubt that they had tried their best to kill Jesus; but for sure they could no succeed in killing him a cursed death on Cross. It is mentioned in Quran:
The Holy Quran : Chapter 4: Al-Nisa’
[4:156] So, for their breaking the covenant, and their denial of the Signs of Allah, and their seeking to slay the Prophets unjustly, and their saying: ‘Our hearts are wrapped up in covers,’ - nay, but Allah has sealed them because of their disbelief, so they believe not but little -
[4:157] And for their disbelief and for their uttering against Mary a grievous calumny;
[4:158] And for their saying, ‘We did slay the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah;’ whereas they slew him not, nor did they bring about his death upon the cross, but he was made to appear to them like one crucified; and those who differ therein are certainly in a state of doubt about it; they have no certain knowledge thereof, but only pursue a conjecture; and they did not arrive at a certainty concerning it.
[4:159] On the contrary, Allah exalted him to Himself. And Allah is Mighty, Wise.
www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?ch=4&verse=154
Thanks
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lurdes
Guest
Thanks for answering my question but I think the muslin way is more confusing to me it leaves me with more question then answers, like I know muslins don’t believe Jesus is the son of the Living God and now they say that Jesus didn’t die on the cross that it was a illusion! isn’t that the reason they kill him because he said he was the son of God and that will make him equal to God?
and if Jesus didn’t die on the cross the prophecies in the OT would have been a lie and I don’t think so.
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Valke2
Guest
One historical reason might be because of the scarcity of wood.
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lurdes
Guest
Where do you find that info? and why is only the JW who come out with this idea, I found out that when T. Russell founded this congregation they use to use the cross after he died they change it.
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Valke2
Guest
First, I’m not a JW. I’m a JeW.
I can’t remember where I read this. I think I have the primary souce at home and will post it later. However, here is a link that acknowledges the scarcity of wood at the time, although it does not state that the crucifixion occurred on a stake, but rather that they recycled the vertical and horizontal bars for other crukcificions.
mystae.com/restricted/reflections/messiah/cross.html
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Valke2
Guest
You might find this link helpful regarding your original post:
mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/newworldtranslation/stauros.htm
mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/newworldtranslation/stauros.htm
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MugenOne
Guest
What people saw on the day when Jesus died was an illusion orchestrated by Allah to fool the rest of mankind.
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lurdes
Guest
I’m sorry but I don’t believe this, God is not a God of illusion
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MugenOne
Guest
That’s what the Muslims actually believe.
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cascherman
Guest
As a Jehovah’s Witness I find it interesting you say that, because I have never seen any JW publication that supports what you just said. It is very cut and dry from any Watchtower publication I’ve read. No cross, definitely a stake. No question. I’ve been shown the appendix of the NWT and the wording is anything but questionable. As well with the internet articles.
Everyday Christians who are not debating with a Jehovah’s Witness will tell you the same thing. The problem is, the Watchtower teaches all it’s adherents that the cross is a major disqualifying factor for being a Christian.
While speaking with a JW at work, that was the first reason he gave me for why I, being a Catholic, am not a true Christian.
That is where the debate comes in.
So, you have agreed there are compelling arguments for both, which any reasonable researcher will tell you about the subject, and the Watchtower will never tell you or anyone.
That piled on top of the fact that the Watchtower has flipped its theology 180 degrees on this subject. From supporting the cross and using it, to ceasing use of it and disqualifying everyone else because they use it. If nothing else, this is a major problem for me, and should be for you as well. Theology flip-flopping cannot be explained by the light getting brighter. You can’t be entirely wrong and expect there to be any light at all.
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