Did Jesus died on a cross?

[Angelos]

Blood does not gush out from a dead man’s body. Jesus heart was beating. Please note it.

Please check the part of your argument underlined by me to see what drives you to wrong conclusions. The verse in the NT specifically states that blood and water gushed out from Jesus’ side when pierced with a lance. There is nothing contradicting scientific facts in this statement.

There is no need to have a witness to Jesus survivng. There are equal chances of him being dead or alive. So he was alive. If he was senseless (in a swoon) then he would appear to be dead. As good as dead. there was no doctor there to confirm his death. Only people said, “Oh he has died”.

I really wonder how equal chances of Jesus’ being dead or alive abruptly lead you to the purely subjective conclusion that He did not die? Nothing in the NT even implies that Jesus fell into a swoon. All Gospels emphasize the fact that Jesus breathed out His last (Matthew 27:50, Mark 15:37, Luke 23:46, John 19:30).

There is nothing either in the Koran or in the NT to support your arguments. Besides, you are trying to prove your arguments with the help of a text that apparently leaves no space for doubts concerning the reality of Jesus’ death! Why should we believe that Jesus fell into a swoon - although there was no doctor present to confirm it(!) - despite the number of witnesses claiming the opposite? For the sake of friendship or of making you happy???

The miracle was that he did not die. That is what you are missing. It was a great miracle for the sake of Jesus that he did not die. He survived the attack of his enemies. That is what the Quran says. And the words of the bible NT support that. Because Jesus never later tell any one that he had returned from the dead.

So you really believe that the supposed miracle could not save Jesus from suffering on the cross? Why did He suffer in the hands of His enemies then? Would you please show me the verses from the NT that construe the miracle in the same way as YOU do? Further, the Koran denies the idea that Jesus suffered in the hands of His enemies. What the Koran rejects is not only that Jesus was killed by the Jews, but also that He was crucified by them!

Surah 4:157 They slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them. (This verse clearly states that it was appeared to Jews as if they had crucified Jesus. Thus, the crucifixion is an illusion too)

Surah 5:110 … and how I restrained the Children of Israel from (harming) thee when thou camest unto them with clear proofs. (According to this verse, the Jews that aimed to harm Jesus were recurrently prevented from reaching Him during His lifetime).

Rather he told some one (Mary magd) not to touch him because he had not gone to the father yet. That also proves that he was alive all the time. The miracle (sign) of Jesus could only match that of Jonas if Jesus was alive all the time in the tomb.

For the sake of honesty, please quote the NT verse properly with numerical references.

John 20:17 Jesus replied, Do not touch me, for I have not yet ascended to my Father.

In this verse, Jesus is talking of His ascension to His father after His bodily resurrection! This is why He does not want Mary Magdalene to touch Him (His resurrected body). See how your arguments are easily debunked through a single word in the NT!

As for the sign of Jonah, I have rebutted your weak arguments a few times so far. Your personal understanding of the parallelism between Jonah’s and Jesus’ sign also leads one to the ridiculous conclusion that Jonah spent his three days in a dead fish since the faulty extension of the sign would turn the fish into an inanimate object or a dead one, as Jesus’ tomb being lifeless!

If Jesus had died then it could not be any resemblance with the miracle (sign) of Jonas. Friend we have our serious reasons to believe that Jesus was alive all the time. Even Pilate did not think Jesus could die so quickly. The other two theives were alive when brought down from their crosses. That is why their legs were broken. HOw could it be that of the three men on the cross, one could die and the other two did not die?? And how could a God die?? Please think over. There is lot of things that need explanation, not just one thing.

The resemblance concerns Jesus’ coming back from death to life three days later! Moreover, there are a number of Psalms in the OT that describe one’s actual death as going into deep waters and losing connection to the land of the living by diving into darkness. The rest of your post contains logical fallacies (appealing to the number), distortion of the NT text (Pilate’s astonishment by Jesus’ quick death is not the same as his denial of Jesus’ death), digression (bringing up Jesus’ divine personality and disregarding His humanity).

Try something better next time

 

[peary]

Please check the part of your argument underlined by me to see what drives you to wrong conclusions. The verse in the NT specifically states that blood and water gushed out from Jesus’ side when pierced with a lance. There is nothing contradicting scientific facts in this statement.

I really wonder how equal chances of Jesus’ being dead or alive abruptly lead you to the purely subjective conclusion that He did not die? Nothing in the NT even implies that Jesus fell into a swoon. All Gospels emphasize the fact that Jesus breathed out His last (Matthew 27:50, Mark 15:37, Luke 23:46, John 19:30).

There is nothing either in the Koran or in the NT to support your arguments. Besides, you are trying to prove your arguments with the help of a text that apparently leaves no space for doubts concerning the reality of Jesus’ death! Why should we believe that Jesus fell into a swoon - although there was no doctor present to confirm it(!) - despite the number of witnesses claiming the opposite? For the sake of friendship or of making you happy???

So you really believe that the supposed miracle could not save Jesus from suffering on the cross? Why did He suffer in the hands of His enemies then? Would you please show me the verses from the NT that construe the miracle in the same way as YOU do? Further, the Koran denies the idea that Jesus suffered in the hands of His enemies. What the Koran rejects is not only that Jesus was killed by the Jews, but also that He was crucified by them!

Surah 4:157 They slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them. (This verse clearly states that it was appeared to Jews as if they had crucified Jesus. Thus, the crucifixion is an illusion too)

Surah 5:110 … and how I restrained the Children of Israel from (harming) thee when thou camest unto them with clear proofs. (According to this verse, the Jews that aimed to harm Jesus were recurrently prevented from reaching Him during His lifetime).

For the sake of honesty, please quote the NT verse properly with numerical references.

John 20:17 Jesus replied, Do not touch me, for I have not yet ascended to my Father.

In this verse, Jesus is talking of His ascension to His father after His bodily resurrection! This is why He does not want Mary Magdalene to touch Him (His resurrected body). See how your arguments are easily debunked through a single word in the NT!

As for the sign of Jonah, I have rebutted your weak arguments a few times so far. Your personal understanding of the parallelism between Jonah’s and Jesus’ sign also leads one to the ridiculous conclusion that Jonah spent his three days in a dead fish since the faulty extension of the sign would turn the fish into an inanimate object or a dead one, as Jesus’ tomb being lifeless!

The resemblance concerns Jesus’ coming back from death to life three days later! Moreover, there are a number of Psalms in the OT that describe one’s actual death as going into deep waters and losing connection to the land of the living by diving into darkness. The rest of your post contains logical fallacies (appealing to the number), distortion of the NT text (Pilate’s astonishment by Jesus’ quick death is not the same as his denial of Jesus’ death), digression (bringing up Jesus’ divine personality and disregarding His humanity).

Try something better next time

What nonsense. The Koran is irrelevant to the Christian Faith, and can be readily dismissed.

 

[tomshaikh]

tomashaikh,

you asked me to read the Quran to know the answer. If the answer is in the Quran, all Muslims would have believed the same. Parrasurrey is Ahmadi, Planten is sunni, and if there is another shia, am sure we’ll get another interpretation as well…so i am asking you how you understand the aya and based on what : Quran, hadith, interpretation, school of thought?

Well i am just a simple muslim. My father is sunni and mother is shia and My father born in sunni family whereas my mother born in her father shia and mother sunni family.My mother father and mother is SYED. Which means there forefathers are descendant of Prophet Muhammad pbuh from his daughter Fatima (R.A) as Prophet Muhammad pbuh Sons died in their childhood. I donot get much influence from both religion. I know little about both sects i.e, Shia and Sunni. But my praying performs is like Sunni and I Go to Sunni Mosque from childhood. My mother didnot know about Shiaism as well though her father was Shia and Mother was Sunni. May Allah Peace With Them. Ameen. I know almost about Sunni sect but i have also know about Shia sect. For me i have just a simple Muslim because during Prophet Muhammad pbuh time there was no sects. Which Prophet Muhammad said that his followers were break in 73 sects like jews in 71 sects and christians in 72 sects. I donot wanna talk about Parra believe because i go insane while talking about her believes. I believes in Quran, Hadiths and Sunni and Shia believes.

 

[Angelos]

What nonsense. The Koran is irrelevant to the Christian Faith, and can be readily dismissed.

Is this the news??? I certainly know that the Koran is irrelevant to the Christian faith. However, planten makes use of both biblical and Islamic material while striving to prove his allegations. This is why I deem it necessary to show him that what he asserts goes against both the NT and Islamic scripture.

 

[peary]

Is this the news??? I certainly know that the Koran is irrelevant to the Christian faith. However, planten makes use of both biblical and Islamic material while striving to prove his allegations. This is why I deem it necessary to show him that what he asserts goes against both the NT and Islamic scripture.

**If I were debating him, I would use the Koran against itself to disprove his allegations, and only the Christian Scriptures when there was harmony of belief.

Muslims can argue scriptures all they want. What they CAN’T argue away is the existence of the Church, which preceded Islam by almost a thousand years. For that, they have no answer and remain silent.**

 

[inJESUS]

> Well i am just a simple muslim. My father is sunni and mother is shia and My father born in sunni family whereas my mother born in her father shia and mother sunni family.



 thank you for sharing some of your personal life with us.



> I believes in Quran, Hadiths and Sunni and Shia believes



so what do you believe the Quran is saying about Jesus crucifixion?

1- someone else was cricified and died
2- no one was crucified and died
3- Jesus was crucified but did not die

Do you believe any of those or you have something different or you simply don't know?

 

[tomshaikh]

thank you for sharing some of your personal life with us.

 

[inJESUS]

Tomshaikh, HOW do you understand this aya? i know many languages, Arabic one of them so translation is not a problem here but the INTERPRETATION.

 

[tomshaikh]

Tomshaikh, HOW do you understand this aya? i know many languages, Arabic one of them so translation is not a problem here but the INTERPRETATION.

**inJESUS**,

Your link does not work. Where are you from? And What race are you?

 

[inJESUS]

Tomshaikh it is not a link. It is a question for you.

 

[tomshaikh]

Thanks for answering my question but I think the muslin way is more confusing to me it leaves me with more question then answers, like I know muslins don’t believe Jesus is the son of the Living God and now they say that Jesus didn’t die on the cross that it was a illusion! isn’t that the reason they kill him because he said he was the son of God and that will make him equal to God?
and if Jesus didn’t die on the cross the prophecies in the OT would have been a lie and I don’t think so.

Present-day Christians believe in the Holy Book known as the New Testament. Many sections of this book call people to believe in and worship God in a most sincere manner and recommend excellent moral principles. In that respect, much of the New Testament is compatible with the Qur'an. Therefore Muslims and Christians have a great many beliefs in common and believe in the same moral values. This is an important truth which represents the groundwork for the establishment of dialogue and cooperation between the two faiths.

However, God also reveals in the Qur'an that two fundamental teachings in the New Testament are erroneous.

The first of these is the belief that Jesus was crucified and was a kind of "sacrifice" for all mankind.

The second is the claim that Jesus is the "son of God." (God is surely beyond that. Far exalted is He above having a son.)

One interesting point is that the statements in the gospels regarding these two beliefs are actually contradictory.

The Four Gospels

The New Testament contains four separate "gospels" which describe the life and ministry of Jesus. The first three of these, the gospels according to Matthew, Mark and Luke are to a large extent parallel to one another. They are thus described as the "synoptic" gospels in the Christian tradition. (The word "synoptic" means "taking the same point of view, and describes the perspectives of the first three gospels.) Despite being the second gospel in the Old Testament, the earliest is the gospel according to Saint Mark. It is accepted that Matthew and Luke used the gospel according to Saint Mark as a source when writing their own gospels, making a few additions to it. 

The fourth gospel is that of John, and this is very different to the line taken by the synoptic gospels. Some events described by John do not appear in the synoptic gospels, or are described in a contrary sense. Moreover, one event described by John is described totally differently from the way it appears in the synoptic gospels. 

Continued read here please

[endoftimes.net/articles_03.html](http://www.endoftimes.net/articles_03.html)

 

[Angelos]

Present-day Christians believe in the Holy Book known as the New Testament. Many sections of this book call people to believe in and worship God in a most sincere manner and recommend excellent moral principles. In that respect, much of the New Testament is compatible with the Qur'an. Therefore Muslims and Christians have a great many beliefs in common and believe in the same moral values. This is an important truth which represents the groundwork for the establishment of dialogue and cooperation between the two faiths.

However, God also reveals in the Qur'an that two fundamental teachings in the New Testament are erroneous.

The first of these is the belief that Jesus was crucified and was a kind of "sacrifice" for all mankind.

The second is the claim that Jesus is the "son of God." (God is surely beyond that. Far exalted is He above having a son.)

One interesting point is that the statements in the gospels regarding these two beliefs are actually contradictory.

The Four Gospels

The New Testament contains four separate "gospels" which describe the life and ministry of Jesus. The first three of these, the gospels according to Matthew, Mark and Luke are to a large extent parallel to one another. They are thus described as the "synoptic" gospels in the Christian tradition. (The word "synoptic" means "taking the same point of view, and describes the perspectives of the first three gospels.) Despite being the second gospel in the Old Testament, the earliest is the gospel according to Saint Mark. It is accepted that Matthew and Luke used the gospel according to Saint Mark as a source when writing their own gospels, making a few additions to it. 

The fourth gospel is that of John, and this is very different to the line taken by the synoptic gospels. Some events described by John do not appear in the synoptic gospels, or are described in a contrary sense. Moreover, one event described by John is described totally differently from the way it appears in the synoptic gospels. 

Continued read here please

[endoftimes.net/articles_03.html](http://www.endoftimes.net/articles_03.html)

Dear Tomshaikh,

Please stop changing the subject and evading the main topic of this thread by copying and pasting an irrelevant article.

We know what Muslim scholars think of the NT ( the Gospels) and that their personal comments are baseless. The differences between the Gospels are not contradictions. Muslim scholars must learn to distinguish the notion of difference from that of contradiction before criticizing Christian Scripture.

 

[planten]

Dear Tomshaikh,

Please stop changing the subject and evading the main topic of this thread by copying and pasting an irrelevant article.

We know what Muslim scholars think of the NT ( the Gospels) and that their personal comments are baseless. The differences between the Gospels are not contradictions. Muslim scholars must learn to distinguish the notion of difference from that of contradiction before criticizing Christian Scripture.

** We do not need to prove any contradiction in the bible NT. But there is enough material in the bible to prove that Jesus had a God. he prayed to his God. He yelled to his God at the time of need. There is no proof in the bible that a God can die. If there is such a thing in bible NT that God can die then please show us.

There are many sects in the Muslims, all having differing beliefs. But there is not even one Muslim who will believe that Jesus died on the cross. The bible also supports the Muslims because Jesus never said, after the ordeal of the cross to any one, that he had died and then got up again. He was busy all the time trying to prove that he was the same Jesus in body and soul and with the same wounds, no change at all. He told some one near his tomb not to touch him because he had not gone to the father yet. That means he had not died yet.

It is the funny beliefs of the church that Jesus (God ) had died for some days. That Jesus (God) was in hell for few days. Then there is a long story about the whole human race being sinners and Jesus was needed for the forgivenness (redemption) of their sins and for that he had to be killed on the cross. Who would believe all that !!**

 

[Angelos]

** We do not need to prove any contradiction in the bible NT. But there is enough material in the bible to prove that Jesus had a God. he prayed to his God. He yelled to his God at the time of need. There is no proof in the bible that a God can die. If there is such a thing in bible NT that God can die then please show us.**

There is enough material in the Bible that God took flesh and dwelt among men. The incarnation made the eternal Word (God’s uncreated Wisdom) equal to humans in everything save sinfulness. Thus, God the Son took human form and was born of the Virgin. You are ignoring and denying Jesus’ human nature in order to prove your faulty arguments.

**
There are many sects in the Muslims, all having differing beliefs. But there is not even one Muslim who will believe that Jesus died on the cross. The bible also supports the Muslims because Jesus never said, after the ordeal of the cross to any one, that he had died and then got up again. He was busy all the time trying to prove that he was the same Jesus in body and soul and with the same wounds, no change at all. He told some one near his tomb not to touch him because he had not gone to the father yet. That means he had not died yet.**

First, there is no use reminding me that no Muslim believes in Jesus’ death since I have never stated otherwise. Second, the Bible never supports you because it emphasizes that Jesus died and rose on the third day. The angel in Jesus’ tomb announces to the women that Jesus is risen! If Jesus had not died - as you suppose -, the angel would never had used the word “risen” with regard to Jesus:

Mark 16:6 Who saith to them: Be not affrighted, you seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He is risen: he is not here. Behold the place where they laid him.

In the Bible Jesus says that He died and rose, rebutting your assertion:

Revelation 1:17-18 And when I had seen him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying: Fear not. I am the First and the Last, And alive, and was dead. And behold I** am living for ever and ever and have the keys of death and of hell**.

Jesus said to Mary Magdalene not to touch Him because He had not ascended to the Father yet. Here He refers to His first ascension to the Father with His risen body after the resurrection. Your argument is easily swept away again.

More, Jesus wanted to convince His disciples that He was the same man they had known when they mistook Him for a ghost. This was because Jesus appeared to His apostles the doors being shut. If Jesus had not died, He would not have appeared to His disciples suddenly and violating the laws of nature:

Luke 24:36-39 Now, whilst they were speaking these things, Jesus stood in the midst of them and saith to them: Peace be to you. It is I: Fear not. But they being troubled and frightened, supposed that they saw a spirit. And he said to them: Why are you troubled, and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? See my hands and feet, that it is I myself. Handle, and see: for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as you see me to have.

John 20:19 Now when it was late the same day, the first of the week, and the doors were shut, where the disciples were gathered together, for fear of the Jews, Jesus **came and stood **in the midst and said to them: Peace be to you.

Luke 24:34 The Lord is risen indeed and hath appeared to Simon.

**
It is the funny beliefs of the church that Jesus (God ) had died for some days. That Jesus (God) was in hell for few days. Then there is a long story about the whole human race being sinners and Jesus was needed for the forgivenness (redemption) of their sins and for that he had to be killed on the cross. Who would believe all that !!**

It is funny indeed that you can criticise Christian tenets only if you deny the incarnation. We all Christians believe in this story because we trust Jesus, our only reliable teacher, Master, Lord, and the Prince of Life!

However, we do not believe that allah sent his messenger to the Israelites and asked him to proclaim Islam and that the messenger failed to establish the true religion on earth and that his message was corrupted by people and that the supposedly corrupted message prevailed. We also do not believe that this all happened so that allah could send his final messenger to the world and correct the mistakes of the former beliefs/believers.

 

[inJESUS]

> The first of these is the belief that Jesus was crucified and was a kind of "sacrifice" for all mankind.



 you are quick to give a judgment when you do not even understand the Quranic aya. If you do, please explain to us what is it that "appeared" as such, and what is the theological reason behind an appearance created by Allah that caused people to  think in exactly what Allah was trying to disprove.



> The second is the claim that Jesus is the "son of God." (God is surely beyond that. Far exalted is He above having a son.)



 do you believe God can make mistakes? we don't and this Quranic aya is a huge theological mistake impossible to be uttered by an all-knowing God because Son of God has absolutely nothing to do with God having a wife. So Actually the Quran is attacking a strawman in the first place..that is, attacking something we do not believe in in the first place.




> The fourth gospel is that of John, and this is very different to the line taken by the synoptic gospels. Some events described by John do not appear in the synoptic gospels, or are described in a contrary sense. Moreover, one event described by John is described totally differently from the way it appears in the synoptic gospels. 



 yea and the ones in charge of corruption were very stupid  to leave such things without correction.;)

 

[planten]

you are quick to give a judgment when you do not even understand the Quranic aya. If you do, please explain to us what is it that “appeared” as such, and what is the theological reason behind an appearance created by Allah that caused people to think in exactly what Allah was trying to disprove.

 

[inJESUS]

people who decide to corrupt cannot be that stupid. You are saying people corrupt, yet they must be mentally retarted in order to corrupt in the way you are describing it. Corruption has an ideological basis…you do not corrupt by leaving things that oppose your ideology.

About your discussion concerning Jesus being a son of God, you are justifying it. But you are not agreeing that God may have a wife too. That is bad. When God can have a son, he can have a wife too. What is wrong with that. It is an argument for you to answer. I believe that he can have a father too. That is your kind of God can have a father too. What would you say about that??

the Quran says it is the mother of books. Who is the Quran’s husband? who are the Quran’s children? do my questions make sense? no, neither do your questions. We have explained it a thousand time already that Son is not physical. The Son, the Word , the Wisdom are different titles to the same Jesus. Did God take a woman in order to have Wisdom/Word/Son?

What words should i use in order to explain to you that the Quranic refutation makes no sense?What words should i use in order to explain to you that the title Son has nothing to do with God having a woman?

 

[Angelos]

Nobody was stupid. Only they did not know what they were talking about. The writers were not any prophets. They were not inspired. Jesus did not dictate anything to them. So they were simple human beings , the sinners, who were busy writing the things.

You must be describing either Mohammad’s scribes (the authors of your scripture) or false teachers that never became true believers in the Gospel and consequently gave birth to heretical doctrines concerning the crucifixion. These two groups are related anyway since Mohammad’s scribes apparently adopted from the Gnostic heresy while denying Jesus’ crucifixion. However, those gnostic heretics were slightly better since they based the denial of the crucifixion on a theological reasoning rather than on a single political motive like hatred towards Jews.

**
About your discussion concerning Jesus being a son of God, you are justifying it. But you are not agreeing that God may have a wife too. That is bad. When God can have a son, he can have a wife too. What is wrong with that. It is an argument for you to answer. I believe that he can have a father too. That is your kind of God can have a father too. What would you say about that??**

I can expect nothing more than this nonsense from a man whose god is believed to bless paradise with sexual fantasies. That sort of a god, who is obsessed with sex, can never understand that the title Son of God has no sexual connotation.

Besides, the god of the Koran is obviously male since he implies that what prevents him from having children is only the lack of a wife, not his being a supreme spirit with no sex!

**
When you have created a son for your God then please look into the matter that He may be having a father too. Already, your son of God (Jesus) is ultimately the final God. That means he is in the father too. He is everything. Such a complicated religion is yours. Nobody can understand it. There are so many mysteries in the church religion. Thay are admitted as mysteries.**

I agree that it is a certain weak point of the Koran to lack the notion of mystery apart from the weird initials occurring at the introductory verses of many chapters with no known reason. Nevertheless, we Christians understand the mysteries of our religion and do not get confounded when a man of another faith deliberately distorts our tenets and consequently mocks himself while trying to mock us.

 

[inJESUS]

Besides, the god of the Koran is obviously male since he implies that what prevents him from having children is only the lack of a wife, not his being a supreme spirit with no sex!

and these are the words of an all-knowing deity…hilarious

 

[Huguenot]

Why do the jws believe that Jesus didn’t die on a cross, that it was just a stake with his arms over his head?