Did Jesus drink wine?...I think not and neither should we...

[Superstar905]

This is ridiculous, I’ll have my wine thanks, actually, maybe a couple glasses!!!

 

[davy39]

In my opinion, if it wasn’t wine being served at the marriage feast, it would have said so. Why are so many things taken literally in the Bible, but as soon as wine is mentioned, people say, “Oh no, it was really grape juice”. Remember, the Blessed Mother said, “They have no WINE”. After Jesus’ miracle, the servant said, "You have saved the good WINE until now. Nuff said.

 

[George_Waters]

Ah, come on guys! You’re not really surprised by any of this are you? How often have we heard “The Bible is the literal word of God” only to be informed “Well, what the Bible means when it says that is…”? This is what happens when men follow their own agendas instead of God’s.

Peace,

George

 

[cheddarsox]

So, wine means wine but brothers means cousins. Have I got that straight now?

No matter who reads or interprets scripture, it seems to “mean” what they “need” it to.

interesting,

cheddar

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Hi Ched, the word for cousin is used in

Colossians 4:10
My fellow prisoner Aristarchus sends you his greetings, as does Mark, the cousin of Barnabas. (You have received instructions about him; if he comes to you, welcome him.)

I think the word wine means wine and the word brother means brother and the word sister means sister.

 

[David_Zampino]

Turtullian:

There’s only one thing wrong with your assertion. Grape Juice as we know it is a modern invention. The process to extract the juice and preserve it from being spoiled was not invented until the Welches Grape juice company did it in the late 19th century. Before then grape juice could be extracted but it had a tendency to spoil easily. Wine is the only alternative. The best way to show Christ indeed drank wine, is becuase the alcholic content in the drink it’s self prevents it from spoiling easily, especially in hot Palestinian sun.

And can you imagine the Good Samaratin pouring grape juice on the wounds of the injured man? Don’t THINK so!

Jesus drank wine. End of story.

Blessings,

 

[Lance]

Ever find a good ventage of grape juice? It all tastes the same to me and everyone I have asked. So why did the servents say “you saved the good stuff till last, when most people serve the poor stuff after the first couple of rounds” or something to that effect?

 

[Lance]

Superstar905:

This is ridiculous, I’ll have my wine thanks, actually, maybe a couple glasses!!!

I’ll join you and later on we could have a couple of beers or maybe a shot of bourbon.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

A History of Beer

The oldest proven records of brewing are about 6,000 years old and refer to the Sumerians. Sumeria lay between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers including Southern Mesopotamia and the ancient cities of Babylon and Ur. It is said that the Sumerians discovered the fermentation process by chance. No one knows today exactly how this occurred, but it could be that a piece of bread or grain became wet and a short time later, it began to ferment and a inebriating pulp resulted. A seal around 4,000 years old is a Sumerian “Hymn to Ninkasi”, the goddess of brewing. This “hymn” is also a recipe for making beer. A description of the making of beer on this ancient engraving in the Sumerian language is the earliest account of what is easily recognized as barley, followed by a pictograph of bread being baked, crumbled into water to form a mash, and then made into a drink that is recorded as having made people feel “exhilarated, wonderful and blissful.” It could be that baked bread was a convenient method of storing and transporting a resource for making beer. The Sumerians were able to repeat this process and are assumed to be he first civilized culture to brew beer. They had discovered a “divine drink” which certainly was a gift from the gods.

From the Gilgamesh Epic, written in the 3rd millennium B.C., we learn that not only bread but also beer was very important. This epic is recognized as one of the first great works of world literature. Ancient oral sagas from the beginning of human history were recorded in writing for the first time. The Gilgamesh Epic describes the evolution from primitive man to “cultured man”.

"Enkidu, a shaggy, unkempt, almost bestial primitive man, who ate grass and could milk wild animals, wanted to test his strength against Gilgamesh, the demigod-like sovereign. Taking no chances, Gilgamesh sent a (prostitute) to Enkidu to learn of his strengths and weaknesses. Enkidu enjoyed a week with her, during which she taught him of civilization. Enkidu knew not what bread was nor how one ate it. He had also not learned to drink beer. The (prostitute) opened her mouth and spoke to Enkidu: ‘Eat the bread now, O Enkidu, as it belongs to life. Drink also beer, as it is the custom of the land.’ Enkidu drank seven cups of beer and his heart soared. In this condition he washed himself and became a human being. "

The Babylonians became the rulers of Mesopotamia after the Sumerian empire collapsed during the 2nd millennium bc. Their culture was derived from that of the Sumerians, and as a consequence of this, they also mastered the art of brewing beer. Today we know that the Babylonians new how to brew 20 different types of beer.

In ancient times beer was cloudy and unfiltered. The “drinking straws” were used to avoid getting the brewing residue, which was very bitter, in the mouth. Beer from Babylon was exported and distributed as far away as Egypt. Hammurabi, an important Babylonian King, decreed the oldest known collection of laws. One of these laws established a daily beer ration. This ration was dependent on the social standing of the individual, a normal worker received 2 liters, civil servants 3 liters, administrators and high priests 5 liters per day. In these ancient times beer was often not sold, but used as barter.

The Egyptians carried on the tradition of beer brewing. They also used unbaked bread dough for making beer and added dates to the brew to improve the taste. The importance of beer brewing in ancient Egypt can be seen from the fact that the scribes created an extra hieroglyph for “brewer”.

alabev.com/history.htm

 

[mikew262]

deb1:

The fact that a glass or two of wine makes you relax does not mean that it is a sin. Having sex with my husband is very relaxing but that doesn’t mean that I should stop doing so. Both sex and alcohol are gifts from God that should be used wisely.

Agreed!!

 

[Pug]

Contarini:

My wife just wrote her Ph.D. dissertation on this subject (actually on the Methodist switch from wine to grape juice, based on this theology).

Edwin

Edwin,

When was the switch? I grew up Methodist and always wondered about the grape juice thing. Do you have a link to her thesis?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

malachi_a_serva:

If no “Drunkards” see the Kingdon of God, how does one now where to draw the line. Obviously, gross intoxication is a given…but what about 1 or 2 glasses…we all know that it is a fact that 1 glass creates a change…it relaxes etc…when does one draw the line to “drunkard”.

If people are capable of acting rationally, they may be “merry”, but they are not drunken.​

Some people can’t drink - such as epileptics: it disagrees with the medications - but that does not mean that nobody can drink moderately. ##

From the studies I read, yes, various texts in their context refer to either unfermented or fermented wine. Fermented being described with the same words that describes “corruption”.

What does that prove though ? Anything ?​

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Daniel Marsh:

Hi Ched, the word for cousin is used in

Colossians 4:10
My fellow prisoner Aristarchus sends you his greetings, as does Mark, the cousin of Barnabas. (You have received instructions about him; if he comes to you, welcome him.)

I think the word wine means wine and the word brother means brother and the word sister means sister.

But in what sense though ?​

 

[cheddarsox]

Daniel Marsh:

Hi Ched, the word for cousin is used in

Colossians 4:10
My fellow prisoner Aristarchus sends you his greetings, as does Mark, the cousin of Barnabas. (You have received instructions about him; if he comes to you, welcome him.)

I think the word wine means wine and the word brother means brother and the word sister means sister.

So do I!

cheddar

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

THE BIBLE AND WINE

By Bruce Lackey

1. The word wine in the Bible is a generic term; sometimes it means grape juice; sometimes it means alcoholic beverages. The following verses prove that the word “wine” can mean fresh grape juice, the fruit of the vine: De. 11:14; 2 Ch. 31:5; Ne. 13:15; Pr. 3:10; Is. 16:10; 65:8; 1 Ti. 5:23.

This above paragraph demonstrates a common word study fallacy because it fails to take into account when each book was written.

In our own lifetime the word gay changed from “being happy” to being homosexual and you consider the list of books above have at least hundreds of years between each…it is no supprise a word will change meaning over time.

BOOK DATE AUTHOR

Job Unknown Anonymous
Genesis 1445-1405 B.C. Moses
Exodus 1445-1405 B.C. Moses
Leviticus 1445-1405 B.C. Moses
Numbers 1445-1405 B.C. Moses
Deuteronomy 1445-1405 B.C. Moses
Psalms 1410-450 B.C. Multiple
Joshua 1405-1385 B.C. Joshua
Judges 1043 B.C. Samuel
Ruth 1030-1010 B.C. Samuel
Song of Solomon 971-965 B.C. Solomon
Proverbs 971-686 B.C. Solomon primarily
Ecclesiastes 940-931 B.C. Solomon
1 Samuel 931-722 B.C. Anonymous
2 Samuel 931-722 B.C. Anonymous
Obadiah 850-840 B.C. Obadiah
Joel 835-796 B.C. Joel
Jonah 775 B.C. Jonah
Amos 750 B.C. Amos
Micah 735-710 B.C. Micah
Hosea 750-710 B.C. Hosea
Isaiah 700-681 B.C. Isaiah
Nahum 650 B.C. Nahum
Zephaniah 635-625 B.C. Zephaniah
Habakkuk 615-605 B.C. Habakkuk
Ezekiel 590-570 B.C. Ezekiel
Lamentations 586 B.C. Jeremiah
Jeremiah 586-570 B.C. Jeremiah
1 Kings 561-538 B.C. Anonymous
2 Kings 561-538 B.C. Anonymous
Daniel 536-530 B.C. Daniel
Haggai 520 B.C. Haggai
Zechariah 480-470 B.C. Zechariah
Ezra 457-444 B.C. Ezra
1 Chronicles 450-430 B.C. Ezra
2 Chronicles 450-430 B.C. Ezra
Esther 450-331 B.C. Anonymous
Malachi 433-424 B.C. Malachi
Nehemiah 424-400 B.C. Ezra
James 44-49 A.D. James
Galatians 49-50 A.D. Paul
Matthew 50-60 A.D. Matthew
Mark 50-60 A.D. Mark
1 Thessalonians 51 A.D. Paul
2 Thessalonians 51-52 A.D. Paul
1 Corinthians 55 A.D. Paul
2 Corinthians 55-56 A.D. Paul
Romans 56 A.D. Paul
Luke 60-62 A.D. Luke
Ephesians 60-61 A.D. Paul
Philippians 60-62 A.D. Paul
Colossians 60-62 A.D. Paul
Philemon 60-62 A.D. Paul
Acts 62 A.D. Luke
1 Timothy 62-64 A.D. Paul
Titus 62-64 A.D. Paul
1 Peter 64-65 A.D. Peter
2 Timothy 66-67 A.D. Paul
2 Peter 67-68 A.D. Peter
Hebrews 67-69 A.D. Anonymous (probably Paul)
Jude 68-70 A.D. Jude
John 80-90 A.D. John
1 John 90-95 A.D. John
2 John 90-95 A.D. John
3 John 90-95 A.D. John
Revelation 94-96 A.D. John

bibletruths.net/Archives/BTAR125.htm

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

malachi_a_serva:

Fermented being described with the same words that describes “corruption”.

So do you eat bread? Baked goods?

“leaven of the Pharisees”



If you don’t drink wine because fermentation is used as a metaphore, then to be consistent you should not eat baked goods other than unleavened ones.

 

[davy39]

This whole thread is getting to me. I guess I’ll have a nice glass of OHIO made white wine. Cheerrrs!

 

[exoflare]

cheddarsox:

So, wine means wine but brothers means cousins. Have I got that straight now?

No matter who reads or interprets scripture, it seems to “mean” what they “need” it to.

interesting,

cheddar

“brothers means cousins”: there’s so many things wrong with this I don’t know where to start, but suffice it to say that’s a MAJOR oversimplification, and not even an accurate way to describe the Catholic position on those particular verses to begin with. Cheap shots like that remind me of something Boettner himself would think to write.

Anyhow, why should Catholics be concerned if their interpretation of scripture isn’t clear from taking the text directly from modern English translations? We’re not the ones who painted ourselves into a corner by claiming such a thing for the Bible, were we?

 

[ComradeAndrei]

From what I’ve read, the “alcohol is bad” idea is pretty lame. They start with the assumption that drinking (to any extent) is bad, then find verses that seem to agree and change some that don’t, and then say that the Bible says that drinking is bad.

My priests, my moral theology book, etc. all say that drinking in moderation is fine. Wine was made to make the hearts of men glad so it does have an effect on you. Drinking grape juice doesn’t exactly gladden the heart.

However, drinking to the point of partial loss of reason (tipsy or buzzed in common lingo) is venial. Drinking to the point of total loss of reason (like wasted or smashed) is mortal.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Hello all;

This seems like a no-brainer to me…

[7] Jesus said to them, “Fill the jars with water.” And they filled them up to the brim.
[8] He said to them, “Now draw some out, and take it to the steward of the feast.” So they took it.
[9] When the steward of the feast tasted the water now become wine, and did not know where it came from (though the servants who had drawn the water knew), the steward of the feast called the bridegroom
[10] and said to him, “Every man serves the good wine first; and when men have drunk freely, then the poor wine; but you have kept the good wine until now.” (Jn. 2:7-10.)

This quote makes absolutely no sense unless it is understood that the wine the guests are drinking “freely” impairs their ability to tell good wine from bad - i.e. it has an alcoholic effect. Jesus not only drank alcoholic wine - he created it from dirty foot water.

Game, set, match.