Did Jesus drink wine or was it grape juice ?

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When a Prostatant start talking about a diff wine and his lips are moving he is tell you a lie. Jesus was drinking WINE we did not have grape juice at the time.
It was always wine until about 1953 an a preacer stat talking about grape juice and all the preacher pick up on it and stated talking about Jesus drinking grape juice, BUT IT IS WINE
 
When does grape juice stop being grape juice and become wine?
Is it degree of alcoholic content?
Not messing with your head - wanting clarity of definition so as we are all talking about the same thing.
 
KEVIN_WILCOX said:
When does grape juice stop being grape juice and become wine?
Is it degree of alcoholic content?
Not messing with your head - wanting clarity of definition so as we are all talking about the same thing.
Click to expand...
Well, from a categorization standpoint, if the alcohol content of the liquid is relatively low, then it’s considered wine. If it’s relatively high, it would be considered a distilled liquor.

Here’s a pretty cool article from an Evangelical on the subject, which brings in the point that the wine contained alcohol, as it was mixed with water. Not endorsing everything in here as fact, as it’s missing citations, but at least proves that some Evangelicals are trying to look at this objectively.

swartzentrover.com/cotor/bible/Doctrines/Holiness/Drugs%20&%20Alcohol/Wine-Drinking%20in%20New%20Testament%20Times.htm
 
Hi, SonofMonica,

Last year my wife and I went on a tour of some Texas vineyards and wineries. As it turns out, the owner of one was familiar with the grapes that grew/grow in today’s Israel. He told us the following story. Today’s wines are somewhere between 9% - 14% alcohol by volume. Wine does not get that kind of alcohol percentage on its own - takes today’s chemistry and knowledge of grape to bring this about. By just letting the grapes ferment on their own (depending on the grape, temp, available sugar, etc.) it could go maybe to 6% but 4% - 5% was the aveage or somewhere in the range of today’s average beer for alcohol content.

This item about “new wine” is just that - wine (grape juice that already has some alcohol content and is still active, i.e., producing carbon dioxide. A new wine skin (usually made of sheep or goat skin) has a certain amount of elasticity and will stretch to accomodate the build up of CO2. But, trying to use a previously used (i.e., fully stretched skin) for more ‘new wine’ would cause the skin to split because it had no more stretch left in it.

Just like people can get drunk on beer - people got drunk on wine… in fact… they still do! But, the problem is not the wine - it is the people drinking to excess. Today, we have it much easier - especially in the US where we can just turn on the tap water and we have all the drinking water we can handle. Back when Jesus walked the earth finding safe drinking water was not to be taken for granted (that is why when the Romans wanted to clear out an area the poisoned the water wells!) Wine was one of the few liquids that could be drunk (no pun intended…) without fear of contracting disease or parasites.
SonofMonica said:
Well, from a categorization standpoint, if the alcohol content of the liquid is relatively low, then it’s considered wine. If it’s relatively high, it would be considered a distilled liquor.

Here’s a pretty cool article from an Evangelical on the subject, which brings in the point that the wine contained alcohol, as it was mixed with water. Not endorsing everything in here as fact, as it’s missing citations, but at least proves that some Evangelicals are trying to look at this objectively.

swartzentrover.com/cotor/bible/Doctrines/Holiness/Drugs%20&%20Alcohol/Wine-Drinking%20in%20New%20Testament%20Times.htm
Click to expand...
To be honest, I never doubted Christ drank wine - just like I never doubted that John the Baptist did not drink wine. But, to me, just how much of a theology does one want to build on something that is not specifically identified? Christ spoke about those who spent their time paying a tithe on mint and rue but failing to heed the weighter parts of the law. (Luke 11:42) For those really spending time on defending that Jesus was a non-drinker, maybe it is time to produce some hard evidence or resign yourself to the fact that He drank, but not to excess (which would have been a sin) and was always in control (He was always God!).

God bless
 
tqualey said:
Hi, SonofMonica,

Last year my wife and I went on a tour of some Texas vineyards and wineries…
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Excellent post! Quite informative. By the way, I live in Texarkana, so hello, neighbor! Where was the winery? by the way, I am involved in several local wine clubs in Texarkana which do charitable wine tastings locally, and my parish is having a wine tasting this weekend in conjunction with both the Texas and Arkansas college football games, in an effort to get 20 somethings more involved in community and parish life. Wine is a big part of my life, both religiously and socially.
 
Interesting to see where we get some of our ideas: Putting water into wine was originally to water down the wine - make it more pallatable. Then it got the meaning of the water and blood from our Lord’s side during the Crucifixion. Similarly the candles on the altar now come to represent the humanity and divinity of our Lord - originally they were there to light the catacombs.
We need our fable and myth (*The Brothers Karamazov *by Dostoyevsky makes for good reading). There are 2 Christianities - the Christianity of Jesus and the Christianity of the Church; just like the wine used in Holy Mass and the candles on the altar.
Someone once said, the Protestants replaced Jesus with St Paul, the Catholics replaced St Paul with St Peter.
In ancient Greece there was a saying “Rationality for the few, magic for the many.”
 
Hi, Kevin,

Maybe it is my imagination, but this post sounds bitter.

The Catholic Church has never taught that the meaning of the water and wine was to correspond to the water and blood from Our Lord’s side. This may be a pious thought that someone had, but, it certainly is not doctrine.

Candles on the altar today are symbolic - we light the Easter Candle as we prepare to share in the joy of the Resurrection - and all light comes from this light. Back in the days when the Mass was celebrated in the catacombs, I think the only reason was for illumination.

It has been a while since I read Dostoyevsky’s famous novel … but, as I recall, it ends with love and forgiveness - not bitterness.

While I won’t argue with you about your statement abut the Protestants having replaced Jesus with St. Paul, I think you are quite in error about the Catholics having replaced Christ with anyone. Please recall, Christ gave Peter the keys and with that the authority to lead the Church of Christ (and that would be the Catholic Church).

You know, for someone who claims to be a Catholic, I really find the way you express yourself to be rather confusing. :rolleyes:
KEVIN_WILCOX said:
Interesting to see where we get some of our ideas: Putting water into wine was originally to water down the wine - make it more pallatable. Then it got the meaning of the water and blood from our Lord’s side during the Crucifixion. Similarly the candles on the altar now come to represent the humanity and divinity of our Lord - originally they were there to light the catacombs.
We need our fable and myth (*The Brothers Karamazov *by Dostoyevsky makes for good reading). There are 2 Christianities - the Christianity of Jesus and the Christianity of the Church; just like the wine used in Holy Mass and the candles on the altar.
Someone once said, the Protestants replaced Jesus with St Paul, the Catholics replaced St Paul with St Peter.
In ancient Greece there was a saying “Rationality for the few, magic for the many.”
Click to expand...
Maybe in your interest of ancient Greeks you would be interested in looking at the life of Diogenes. He was a cynic who ultimately got in trouble for failing to appreciate the value of truth - he was caught debasing the currency he was coining :rolleyes: (he had a day job!)

God bless
 
tqualey said:
Hi, Kevin,

Maybe it is my imagination, but this post sounds bitter.

The Catholic Church has never taught that the meaning of the water and wine was to correspond to the water and blood from Our Lord’s side. This may be a pious thought that someone had, but, it certainly is not doctrine.

Candles on the altar today are symbolic - we light the Easter Candle as we prepare to share in the joy of the Resurrection - and all light comes from this light. Back in the days when the Mass was celebrated in the catacombs, I think the only reason was for illumination.

It has been a while since I read Dostoyevsky’s famous novel … but, as I recall, it ends with love and forgiveness - not bitterness.

While I won’t argue with you about your statement abut the Protestants having replaced Jesus with St. Paul, I think you are quite in error about the Catholics having replaced Christ with anyone. Please recall, Christ gave Peter the keys and with that the authority to lead the Church of Christ (and that would be the Catholic Church).

You know, for someone who claims to be a Catholic, I really find the way you express yourself to be rather confusing. :rolleyes:

Maybe in your interest of ancient Greeks you would be interested in looking at the life of Diogenes. He was a cynic who ultimately got in trouble for failing to appreciate the value of truth - he was caught debasing the currency he was coining :rolleyes: (he had a day job!)

God bless
Click to expand...
Bitter? Not at all. A questioner? Certainly.
As I said there seems to be 2 Churches on the boil at the same time, that of the Church orthodox (leaning toward dogmatic theology) and that of the Church gathering (leaning toward myth and legend)
Did you know the Easter Candle is symbolic of the male phallus; the water it is plunged into, symbolic of the female element? True.
Where do you get the understanding my message is absent of love and forgiveness?
And that I do not value truth? Questioning often leads us to truth (for example, the theological scholasticism of people such as St Thomas Aquinas, and maybe Vatican 2)
Our Church is very rich, exploration is reasonable.
Diogenes (c.400-c.325 B.C.) - a seeker of virtue, believed that much of modern life is artificial and unnecessarily complicated. He wrote ‘I am looking for an honest man’.
A long time before St Paul, he also wrote ‘Love of money is the mother of all evils.’
If I listen to people such as Diogenes do I follow an example set by St Paul?
 
Hi, Kevin,

Paul did not debase coinage - so, if you are looking for an example to live your life by - Paul would be a much better choice then Diogenes.

Any shaft can be the symbol for any other shaft - and, apparently you have been carried away with symbols - time to get your feet back on the ground, before you fall into one of these logical bottomless pits type ‘shafts’.

Where did I get this… well, I did not your message of myth and magic to be totally missing the mark on the stated thread. You are invited to start on your own thread on a topic near and dear to your heart - just do not hijack this one… 👍
KEVIN_WILCOX said:
Bitter? Not at all. A questioner? Certainly.
As I said there seems to be 2 Churches on the boil at the same time, that of the Church orthodox (leaning toward dogmatic theology) and that of the Church gathering (leaning toward myth and legend)
Did you know the Easter Candle is symbolic of the male phallus; the water it is plunged into, symbolic of the female element? True.
Where do you get the understanding my message is absent of love and forgiveness?
And that I do not value truth? Questioning often leads us to truth (for example, the theological scholasticism of people such as St Thomas Aquinas, and maybe Vatican 2)
Our Church is very rich, exploration is reasonable.
Diogenes (c.400-c.325 B.C.) - a seeker of virtue, believed that much of modern life is artificial and unnecessarily complicated. He wrote ‘I am looking for an honest man’.
A long time before St Paul, he also wrote ‘Love of money is the mother of all evils.’
If I listen to people such as Diogenes do I follow an example set by St Paul?
Click to expand...
God bless
 
I beleive he drank wine. Grape juice is just a symbol of the wine and the blood of christ just like when Jesus broke the bread, it wasn’t a wafer, a white, totally flat round thin crisp cracker it was unleaven bread kinda like a peta bread. See the same question can be asked about the bread. But does it really matter if it was or wasn’t wine, if it was fermented or not. I don’t think they knew about grape juice back then, if it came from the vine and made into a liquid it was then called wine fermented or not. I may be wrong but isn’t this possible also. See wine is a drink containing 10 to 15% alcohol by volume made by fermenting grapes.
 
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