Did Jesus drop by the hell of demons and the damned before ascending?

[workinprogress]

Fr. Groeschel said he just went to the purgatory part of the “underworld” based on accurate translations of “infernos (I think it was)” in the Bible. Obviously, then, he did go there. According to Anne Catherine Emmerich’s revelations regarding the Passion, she saw Jesus also going to Satan’s area and talking to Judas. I can’t remember if he also put Satan in chains as well then. Of course, her visions are not public revelation so he might not have gone there, but does the Church, but does the Church say he absolutely did not and are her visions (like the Gospel of James that mentions the names of Mary’s parents, which the Church employed for one feast day) considered worthy of belief?

 

[Sean_O_L]

“And Jesus said to him (the good thief): Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.”

This day - and for three days Jesus was NOT going to be in Heaven; He was going to, what was known as the Limbus patrum of Luke 23:43. In Luke 16:23 it is called by the Rabbinical name “Abraham’s bosom”; it was the place where those who had died prior to the Redemption rested/waited.

It was a place just south of Heaven and just north of Hell.

Bl. Anna Catherina Emmerick was not raised to the ranks of the Blessed because of the writings attributed to her - which, were the notes madem by her biographer Clemens Brentano. The fact is that those writings were ignored by the Vatican.

 

[Bill_A]

NO! That is true. As a catholic of 35 Years. I know the Aspostles creedo, the creedo by heart.

It says, He descended into hell and on the 3rd day he rose again. He descended into hell, Just to let Satan know he could, visited the souls in hell and than left. (When I was in Prison you visited me.) He did not bind Satan though. He will do that at the end of time on earth.

 

[Exporter]

1stPeter 3:19. “He preached to those Spirits who were in “prison”.”

Remember that Peter was a Jew. 1st Peter was written in Hebrew. Pete wrote it at Rome, between 49 and 60. It is said that St. Mark was Peter’s scribe. There is a problem when interpreting from Ancient Hebrew into modern English. The Hebrews had at least three descriptive terms for “the place of the dead”. From the Douay-Rheims commentary we find: hell as in the Apostle’s Creed, Limbus Patrum, The Infernal Parts, Abrahams bosom, Schoal and the Prison. The Jews didn’t have a word for Purgatory, they had cumulative terms for the prison and hades. They also had a word from the Greeks, the river Styx. The Jews were confused about purgatory and hell.

When the Apostle’s Creed was written there was a distinction between the upper levels of hell, where the souls were being purged to be made ready for heaven and the lower regions of hell where the unsaved, the damned resided. All of it was called hell quite often. The word “Purgatory” had not yet been invented at the time that the Aopstle’s Creed was written.

Jesus did not descend into the lower reaches of hades, to preach to the damned, for there was no reason to do that. Jesus spoke to the spirits who were in what we today call Purgatory. He released them to heaven. The souls in the “prison” were capable of recieving salvation. Some people say that Jesus voice was heard in the depths of hell, there is no evidence of this. The prison was Purgatory!

Jesus didn’t “drop by” the hell of the demons (as was written by the originator). He went to Purgatory (the prison of souls) to release the just who were being purged.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

This day

I believe I’ve read some interpretations of the relevant passage which state that the “This day” part could be punctuated differently than it appears in most Bibles. The original writings (and we don’t have original writings, only copies) were not written with any punctuation. Imagine the run-on sentences/paragraphs!

So, it is entirely possible that the passage could read, “Amen I say to you this day, you shall be with me in Paradise”.

Just something to ponder.

 

[serendipity]

I don’t mean any disrespect, but sometimes I wonder about the timing of things too. I don’t doubt that he descended into hell, as the creed says, or descended to the dead, as sometimes is said instead.

Please forgive me for soudning foolish. What I wonder about, and would be interested in reading something related to, is the question of his appearance on earth after the resurrection. Did he become alive in the tomb, and then visit those waiting for him (Mary Magdalene, and whomever else was there, depending on which gospel), to tell them he will meet them later, and then go to Hell, and then come back tell them the end of the story, and then ascend into heaven for the rest of time? Or did they see him on his return trip from hell?

“On the third day he rose again”…straight trip to heaven from hell, or returned from the dead as a layover to communicate his imparting words and then ascended into heaven?

In my opinion, these are theological technicalities and the emphasis should always be placed on the way Jesus lived and his words, but I do still wonder sometimes.

 

[AmyS]

1stPeter 3:19. “He preached to those Spirits who were in “prison”.”

Remember that Peter was a Jew. 1st Peter was written in Hebrew. Pete wrote it at Rome, between 49 and 60. It is said that St. Mark was Peter’s scribe. There is a problem when interpreting from Ancient Hebrew into modern English. The Hebrews had at least three descriptive terms for “the place of the dead”. From the Douay-Rheims commentary we find: hell as in the Apostle’s Creed, Limbus Patrum, The Infernal Parts, Abrahams bosom, Schoal and the Prison. The Jews didn’t have a word for Purgatory, they had cumulative terms for the prison and hades. They also had a word from the Greeks, the river Styx. The Jews were confused about purgatory and hell.

When the Apostle’s Creed was written there was a distinction between the upper levels of hell, where the souls were being purged to be made ready for heaven and the lower regions of hell where the unsaved, the damned resided. All of it was called hell quite often. The word “Purgatory” had not yet been invented at the time that the Aopstle’s Creed was written.

Jesus did not descend into the lower reaches of hades, to preach to the damned, for there was no reason to do that. Jesus spoke to the spirits who were in what we today call Purgatory. He released them to heaven. The souls in the “prison” were capable of recieving salvation. Some people say that Jesus voice was heard in the depths of hell, there is no evidence of this. The prison was Purgatory!

Jesus didn’t “drop by” the hell of the demons (as was written by the originator). He went to Purgatory (the prison of souls) to release the just who were being purged.

Great post. People need to remember that the original sin that is removed by the baptisim we have today wasn’t avaliable before Jesus came. As I heard it put before I think by Fulton Sheen… Orginal sin made it so we could not see God, we could not walk side by side in his presence. Jesus had to, as you put it, free these people from the prison… Jesus the salvation, and reedemer, the life, the light, the way

 

[Bill_A]

If I have to doubt a pices of church doctrine, the apostles creed. Than I must doubt Jesus was the Son of God and Mary was the virgin. I will not comprimise church doctrine. Saying that Purgatory and Hell are the same thing is not CHurch doctrine. It would be nothing to say Jesus would not descend into purgatory and preech the word of the Gospel to people sitting in the waiting room of Heaven is purely riduclous.

You can not Descend into purgatory. Purgatory is a lateral move for most people. Hell is not.

 

[otm]

Bill_A:

If I have to doubt a pices of church doctrine, the apostles creed. Than I must doubt Jesus was the Son of God and Mary was the virgin. I will not comprimise church doctrine. Saying that Purgatory and Hell are the same thing is not CHurch doctrine. It would be nothing to say Jesus would not descend into purgatory and preech the word of the Gospel to people sitting in the waiting room of Heaven is purely riduclous.

You can not Descend into purgatory. Purgatory is a lateral move for most people. Hell is not.

It is good to not doubt church doctrine. It is also good to understand what that church doctrine is, exactly.

Language is fluid, in that over time, the meaning of words change. The meaning of the word “hell” in the apostles creed as it was originally written is not the same meaning as we understand by the term “hell” today. No one is saying that purgatory and hell are the same thing; what they are saying is that the four letters - h.e.l.l. when originally used had a different meaning.

In other words, 50 years ago if a man was descrbed as gay, it meant that he was joyous, outgoing, merry. It had no connotation as to his sexual preferences. Today, it means that he has a homosexual orientation. The meaning of the word “gay” has changed.

Capiche?

 

[otm]

Bill_A:

You can not Descend into purgatory. Purgatory is a lateral move for most people. Hell is not.

Oh, and by the way, the best theological thinking is that pugatory is not so much a place as a state of being (see the writings of Pope John Paul 2). So the discussion of descending, ascending, or moving lateraly is not literal so much as figurative.

 

[Shiann]

Exporter:

…

Jesus did not descend into the lower reaches of hades, to preach to the damned, for there was no reason to do that. Jesus spoke to the spirits who were in what we today call Purgatory. He released them to heaven. The souls in the “prison” were capable of recieving salvation. Some people say that Jesus voice was heard in the depths of hell, there is no evidence of this. The prison was Purgatory!

Jesus didn’t “drop by” the hell of the demons (as was written by the originator). He went to Purgatory (the prison of souls) to release the just who were being purged.

I have never heard this, I have always understood that Limbus Patrum (Abraham’s Bosom) to be ONLY where already purged souls rested before Jesus opened the Gates of Heaven. I have always considered purgatory to be a seperate state/place.

I checked the Catholic Encyclopedia, and found the following:

It is principally on the strength of these Scriptural texts, harmonized with the general doctrine of the Fall and Redemption of mankind, that Catholic tradition has defended the existence of the limbus patrum as a temporary state or place of happiness distinct from Purgatory. As a result of the Fall, Heaven was closed against men. Actual possession of the beatific vision was postponed, even for those already purified from sin, until the Redemption should have been historically completed by Christ’s visible ascendancy into Heaven. Consequently, the just who had lived under the Old Dispensation, and who, either at death or after a course of purgatorial discipline, had attained the perfect holiness required for entrance into glory, were obliged to await the coming of the Incarnate Son of God and the full accomplishment of His visible earthly mission. Meanwhile they were “in prison,” as St. Peter says; but, as Christ’s own words to the penitent thief and in the parable of Lazarus clearly imply, their condition was one of happiness, notwithstanding the postponement of the higher bliss to which they looked forward. And this, substantially, is all that Catholic tradition teaches regarding the limbus patrum.

Catholic Encyclopedia- Limbo

 

[Exporter]

"Please forgive me for soudning foolish. What I wonder about, and would be interested in reading something related to, is the question of his appearance on earth after the resurrection. Did he become alive in the tomb, and then visit those waiting for him (Mary Magdalene, and whomever else was there, depending on which gospel), to tell them he will meet them later, and then go to Hell, and then come back tell them the end of the story, and then ascend into heaven for the rest of time? Or did they see him on his return trip from hell? "

---

No. Jesus did not go preach to the souls in Prison (Purgatory) after he arose on the third day! The Commentaries of the Douay - Rheims Bible, written by Bishops and Theologians says :“IT WAS THE SPIRIT OF JESUS WHO WENT TO THE SOULS IN THE PRISON”.That occurred while He was in the tomb. It was the Spirit of Jesus who went to preach to the souls in prison (purgatory). Jesus’ spirit did this before(BEFORE) He arose on the third day.

 

[Exporter]

Bill_A:

If I have to doubt a pices of church doctrine, the apostles creed. Than I must doubt Jesus was the Son of God and Mary was the virgin. I will not comprimise church doctrine. Saying that Purgatory and Hell are the same thing is not CHurch doctrine. It would be nothing to say Jesus would not descend into purgatory and preech the word of the Gospel to people sitting in the waiting room of Heaven is purely riduclous.

You can not Descend into purgatory. Purgatory is a lateral move for most people. Hell is not.

---

Go back and reread post #4, it answers your question.

Read the first two paragraphs. No one said hell and purgatory are one and the same. That was a problem with the Hebrew language. BTW, the thought that the move to purgatory is a lateral move is not theological. Heaven, Purgatory and hell are not certain “places” in the universe. Each is Spiritual, not physical. So to say a move to Purgatory is “lateral” is meaningless. Does an Angel move laterally? No.

 

[Sean_O_L]

On PARADISE thus saith the 1885 “A Catholic Dictionary”, by William E. Addis and Thomas Arnold, M.A., 3rd Edition Revised, Kegan Paul, Trench & Co., 1 Paternoster Sq., London:

"An old Persian word adopted at an early date by the Hebrews. It only occurs three times in the Old Testament, and always means simply ‘a park’ (Cant. iv, 13; Neh. ii 8; Eccl. ii 5, pl). In the LXX (Gen. ii, 8) and Peshito it is used for that particular garden or park in which Adam and Eve were placed; and in the later Jewish theology for that part of Hades which was inhabited by the souls of the just, and which we call ‘Limbo.’ In this sense it occurs in Luc. xxiii, 43. Lastly, in 2 Cor. xii, 4; Apoc. ii 7, it means ‘heaven,’ or ‘a part of heaven.’ "

Thus, when Jesus told the good thief that "This day thou shalt be with me in Paradise, He was NOT saying that "This day you will be with me in Heaven - for “this day” (and for a while yet) He was not going to Heaven; He, and the good thief would be elsewhere: in the “park”, which was a good and happy place to be!, and where the just from the pre-Redemption era were “parked” awaiting the opening of the Gates of Heaven.

Just as there are “levels” of reward for lives spent on earth, so too - as has been already been pointed out by another poster - there are levels of punishment in Hell/Hades.

I was being a bit “flip” in saying that Paradise was a bit south of Heaven and a bit north of Hell - but, the notion is fair

 

[Sean_O_L]

As for the query on the names of the parents of the BVM:

Joachim is mentioned in neither historial or canonical writings. The information we have on Joachim derives mainly from the apocryphal Protoevangelium of James.

Reading
Joachim and Anne, how blessed a couple! All creation is indebted to you. For at your hands the Creator was offered a gift excelling all other gifts: a chaste mother, who alone was worthy of him.

Joachim and Anne, how blessed and spotless a couple! You will be known by the fruit you have borne, as the Lord says: “By their fruits you will know them.” The conduct of your life pleased God and was worthy of your daughter. For by the chaste and holy life you led together, you have fashioned a jewel of virginity: she who remained a virgin before, during, and after giving birth. She along for all time would maintain her virginity in mind and soul as well as in body.

Joachim and Anne, how chaste a couple! While leading a devout and holy life in your human nature, you gave birth to a daughter nobler than the angels, whose queen she now is.

from a sermon by Bishop Saint John Damascene

catholic-forum.com/saints/saintj20.htm

As for believing? Well in the early days of the Church, sainthood was usually by acclamation of the people. Our Lady had a father and mother, and Joachim and Anne seem pretty good to me.

 

[Benadam]

I have come to think of His descent into hell as an inevitable experience for Him since His body died. By hell I mean the place where the souls exist that lack the ability to offer corporeal substance. Aka the realm of the dead Hades sheol.

The different levels of that realm are really just different states of existing according to the soul that exists ‘there’.

His descent was to satisfy the just cause of preventing any soul to remain in rejection of God without having been exposed to the Gospel of Christ.
I also believe that His presence there changed the quality of the experience of unembodied soul.

For some it turned hell fire into a purging, others a hell fire confirmed.

it was the rising and fall of many there too. imho

 

[Exporter]

Benadam:

I have come to think of His descent into hell as an inevitable experience for Him since His body died. By hell I mean the place where the souls exist that lack the ability to offer corporeal substance. Aka the realm of the dead Hades sheol.

The different levels of that realm are really just different states of existing according to the soul that exists ‘there’.

His descent was to satisfy the just cause of preventing any soul to remain in rejection of God without having been exposed to the Gospel of Christ.
I also believe that His presence there changed the quality of the experience of unembodied soul.

For some it turned hell fire into a purging, others a hell fire confirmed.

it was the rising and fall of many there too. imho

---

Look at the underlined sentances. Did you use the beliefs of the Jews to compose those sentances? You avoided Catholic Theology. Do you mean to say that Hades and Sheol are one and the same? How does purgatory fit into all that you said? Did the pre-Christian Jews teach a Jewish purgatory?

 

[Dj_Roy_Albert]

Bill_A:

NO! That is true. As a catholic of 35 Years. I know the Aspostles creedo, the creedo by heart.

It says, He descended into hell and on the 3rd day he rose again. He descended into hell, Just to let Satan know he could, visited the souls in hell and than left. (When I was in Prison you visited me.) He did not bind Satan though. He will do that at the end of time on earth.

1. God does not allow sin to exsist in His pressence, so why would He go to the prison of “the devil & his angels” ?
2. The devil isn’t in hell - Rev 12:9 “The huge dragon, the ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, who deceived the whole world, was thrown down to earth, and its angels were thrown down with** it.”**

 

[Benadam]

***************************************************************************
Look at the underlined sentances. Did you use the beliefs of the Jews to compose those sentances? You avoided Catholic Theology. Do you mean to say that Hades and Sheol are one and the same? How does purgatory fit into all that you said? Did the pre-Christian Jews teach a Jewish purgatory?

yes, I was refering to hell before Christ as well as after. Before Christ descended it would be like the Jews said it was I believe. I f you read carefully you’ll find that I mentioned that the quality of experience changed for the soulds there, for some it became purgatory for others the fires of hell.

• I also believe that **His **presence there changed the quality of the experience of unembodied soul.

Just for interest sake, I’m not familiar with jewish theology.

 

[Benadam]

1. God does not allow sin to exsist in His pressence, so why would He go to the prison of “the devil & his angels” ?

That’s true. On the other hand I doubt you could get evil to enter into His presence anyway.

1. The devil isn’t in hell - Rev 12:9 "The huge dragon, the ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, who deceived the whole world, was thrown down to earth, and its angels were thrown down with** it.**

I think that depends on your vantage point. Since we can still be subjected to his influence we can’t experience the fact that he is judged but wecan and do experience him as a tool to judge. He is thrown down to earth and the limitations imposed on him would not seem like a prison to us. You are right though in the sense that there will be a time when his existence will lack any purpose at all.