Did Jesus establish a disorganized Church or an organized Church?

[Mannyfit75]

Did Jesus establish a disorganized Church or an organized Church?

In Protestantism, I see a diverse sect of Christianity that have different set of beliefs from one another. This to me seem rather disorganized. This is probably due the doctrine of Sola Scriptura.

In Catholicism, I see a more organized Church. A hiarcharchy. The Pope as the Chief Steward, Jesus as King or Head of the Church. A well organized established institution founded by God-Man.

So in your opinion, did Jesus establish an disorganized Church (with no formal authority but rely heavily on private interpretation of Scripture) or an organized Church (Church authority that sets a more orthodox Christian Church founded in Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism)?

 

[Syele]

Obviously, Manny, all the Catholics will choose one and all the Protestants the other.

 

[ralphinal]

Obviously, Manny, all the Catholics will choose one and all the Protestants the other.

No, some Protestants will agree with us. I can see the Anglicans and perhaps the Lutherans doing so.

Now, the non-denominationals…

 

[reen12]

Did Jesus establish a disorganized Church or an organized Church?

In Protestantism, I see a diverse sect of Christianity that have different set of beliefs from one another. This to me seem rather disorganized. This is probably due the doctrine of Sola Scriptura…

Or it may be that - the CC concept of ‘organized’ -----> generated a “Jesus” who was unrecognizable, by the 15th c.

…indulgences, treasury of merit, grace as commodity, sacramental ‘system’…‘economy of salvation.’

Between ‘system’ and ‘economy,’ no wonder! the mindset developed -
that an indulgence could be ‘bought.’

No, the CC never taught this, yet it is of interest - that the people, of the time,
thought of grace as a ‘commodity,’ in that they actually thought that an indulgence could be ‘earned,’ and then ‘applied.’ - ‘drawn from’ an incredible! 'Treasury of Merit."
This is still spoken of in the modern CCC.

From the Vatican website: CCC # 1476

1476 We also call these spiritual goods of the communion of saints the Church’s treasury, which is “not the sum total of the material goods which have accumulated during the course of the centuries. On the contrary the ‘treasury of the Church’ is the infinite value, which can never be exhausted, which Christ’s merits have before God. They were offered so that the whole of mankind could be set free from sin and attain communion with the Father. In Christ, the Redeemer himself, the satisfactions and merits of his Redemption exist and find their effficacy.”

Human beings finally took a good, long look - at* all* of this- and knew this was error.
Whatever Christ’s will was, as to the “keys” - this marketplace mentality surely was not it.

“You have turned My Father’s house into a marketplace.” http://bestsmileys.com/nono/9.gif

reen12

 

[JRKH]

Or it may be that - the CC concept of ‘organized’ -----> generated a “Jesus” who was unrecognizable, by the 15th c.

…indulgences, treasury of merit, grace as commodity, sacramental ‘system’…‘economy of salvation.’

Between ‘system’ and ‘economy,’ no wonder! the mindset developed -
that an indulgence could be ‘bought.’

No, the CC never taught this, yet it is of interest - that the people, of the time,
thought of grace as a ‘commodity,’ in that they actually thought that an indulgence could be ‘earned,’ and then ‘applied.’ - ‘drawn from’ an incredible! 'Treasury of Merit."
This is still spoken of in the modern CCC.

From the Vatican website: CCC # 1476

1476 We also call these spiritual goods of the communion of saints the Church’s treasury, which is “not the sum total of the material goods which have accumulated during the course of the centuries. On the contrary the ‘treasury of the Church’ is the infinite value, which can never be exhausted, which Christ’s merits have before God. They were offered so that the whole of mankind could be set free from sin and attain communion with the Father. In Christ, the Redeemer himself, the satisfactions and merits of his Redemption exist and find their effficacy.”

Human beings finally took a good, long look - at* all* of this- and knew this was error.
Whatever Christ’s will was, as to the “keys” - this marketplace mentality surely was not it.

“You have turned My Father’s house into a marketplace.” http://bestsmileys.com/nono/9.gif

reen12

hhmmmmm…
I wonder if that is a vote for - Organized or dis-organized?

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Obviously, Manny, all the Catholics will choose one and all the Protestants the other.

Actually I think both would say organized - But organized around what?
Protestants will say it is organized around Christ and “The Word” (meaning The Bible)

Catholics will see it organized around the Church that Christ Founded and the bible being a part of the whole.

Peace
James

 

[Mannyfit75]

How about those who adhere to Non-Denomination, who Church hopping to Churches to another that fit their comfort zone? Like like bar hopping?

 

[JRKH]

How about those who adhere to Non-Denomination, who Church hopping to Churches to another that fit their comfort zone? Like like bar hopping?

Well I would assume they would simply say that the "Church is “Organized” around the Bible but the Specific “organization”, as in congregation, doesn’t matter so much.

Perhaps we can get (name removed by moderator)ut from a “non-denominational” to clarify this.

Peace
James

 

[Mannyfit75]

I like some answers on it as well

 

[Steadfast]

Jesus established THE church, His Body.

To call it “organized” is to saddle it with an idea that had no currency at the time.

It needs to be asked what is meant by “organized” and “disorganized”?

If all that is meant is that He established his church with a proper order and governance then I can’t really see who would disagree.

If the argument is about the names, functions and “charisms” inherent in the “offices” that go to make up this governance then, I am afraid we are not likely to settle anything here, this too falls under the heading of things about which there may be divergence of opinion since Scripture is so very quiet on the matter.

 

[reen12]

“He made Simon the head of his church.
And then came Linus, and then came Anacletus…”
and then came indulgences, and a Treasury of Merit,
an ‘economy of salvation’, a sacramental ‘system’…
and 700 years of speculation - over the eternal destination of an infant
who died without the waters of baptism…

Huh?

Yes. At one point, one of the big noises, in the world of
theology, speculated that such infants were subject to
the “positive misery of the damned.”

Huh?

Yes. Even now the first ecclesial entity isn’t sure about
all of this. They say that bapitzing an infant is an ‘urgent’ matter.

Huh?

What did the man, whom they follow, say?
“By their fruits you will know them.”

Passer by on the street:
"Wait a minute. Speaking of produce, is this the
same Jesus who was hungry - and when a local fig tree
didn’t have fruit [out of season] - he cursed the tree and it withered?

Yup. Don’t blame me. I don’t make the news,
I just report it.

reen12

 

[reen12]

“He made Simon the head of his church.
And then came Linus, and then came Anacletus…”
and then came indulgences, and a Treasury of Merit,
an ‘economy of salvation,’ a sacramental ‘system’…
and 700 years of speculation - over the eternal destination of an infant
who died without the waters of baptism.

Huh?

Yes. At one point, a highly honored cleric speculated that
such infants were subject to the “positive misery of the damned.”

Huh?

Even now, the first ecclesial entity isn’t sure about all of this.
They say that bapitzing an infant is an ‘urgent’ matter.

Huh?

What did the man, whom they follow, say?

“By their fruits you will know them.”

reen12

 

[reen12]

“He made Simon the head of his church.
And then came Linus, and then came Anacletus…”
and then came indulgences, and a Treasury of Merit,
an ‘economy of salvation,’ a sacramental ‘system’…
and 700 years of speculation - over the eternal destination of an infant
who died without the waters of baptism.

I’ll tell ya one thing. Ya gotta be reallllly organized to
drum up this kind of thing. http://bestsmileys.com/cool/1.gif

reen 12

 

[reen12]

And do we know why there’s a hesitation - over
saying, outright, that an infant who dies, without
baptism, goes straight to the heart of God?

You see, an infant, who passes away before baptism,
cannot experience ‘baptism of desire,’ nor do good works.
The hapless infant can’t even talk yet.

We don’t really know. We trust these little ones to the mercy of God…"
Mercy? For an infant?

Oh yes. 'Original sin."

Yet this same ecclesial entity is perfectly confident…
in defining the procession, within the trinity. http://bestsmileys.com/nono/9.gif

reen12

 

[Americanrevert]

**Hello,

Can you please tell me where Jesus ever even stepped foot inside a church? Was he truly a Christian? Did he ever use the word “Christianity?” What was he then?

Americanrevert**

 

[famdigy]

**Hello,

Can you please tell me where Jesus ever even stepped foot inside a church? Was he truly a Christian? Did he ever use the word “Christianity?” What was he then?

Americanrevert**

The answer is obvious, he is god in the flesh but his spirit is seperate and so is the father… when he died it was the flesh that died not the spirit. my question here is was his spirit ever with him when he was alive. what about the father’s spirit is is the same as Jesus’s spirit, do they share a common spirit and where is this written… man i’m so confused. Trinity always confuses me.

how does that go again?

 

[With_Questions]

Did Jesus establish a disorganized Church or an organized Church?

In Protestantism, I see a diverse sect of Christianity that have different set of beliefs from one another. This to me seem rather disorganized. This is probably due the doctrine of Sola Scriptura.

In Catholicism, I see a more organized Church. A hiarcharchy. The Pope as the Chief Steward, Jesus as King or Head of the Church. A well organized established institution founded by God-Man.

So in your opinion, did Jesus establish an disorganized Church (with no formal authority but rely heavily on private interpretation of Scripture) or an organized Church (Church authority that sets a more orthodox Christian Church founded in Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism)?

I don’t know, but I would sort of like some better Protestant answers to this question than what I have read having lurked around here a while.

What did Jesus have in mind when he designed the church? Did he really have in mind a number of denominations that disagree with each other? Yes or no? If not, what did he have in mind?

This does not necessarily mean the Catholic pope, but if you take this up a level, I think this really is a good question. I sometimes get the idea from reading Protestant answers to questions like this that Jesus is cool with what He sees now.

 

[ralphinal]

**Hello,

Can you please tell me where Jesus ever even stepped foot inside a church? Was he truly a Christian? Did he ever use the word “Christianity?” What was he then?

Americanrevert**

Jesus was a Jew. His followers were both Jews and Gentiles. Eventually, the Jews forced the Christians out of their worship communities.

There were no Churches back then, only one Jewish Temple in Jerusalem and synagogs where ever there were Jews.

 

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by Americanrevert
Hello,

Just to expamd upon this a bit.
When Jesus was found by His parents at age 12 He was in “The Temple” - a Church. Jesus also was in the temple (Church) precincts when He overturned the money changers tables.

As for Jesus “Stepping foot in a Church” I suggest visiting your local Catholic Church and spending time in front of the tabernacle. He is there all day every day.

Peace
James