Did Jesus establish an official church or a community of believers?

[Sir_Knight]

Having a discussion on another board regarding whether Jesus established an official, visible church or just a community of believers and we’re getting into areas that I am not that knowledgable in …

church -
ekklesia, from a compound of Greek 1537 (ek) and a derivative of Greek 2564 (kaleo); a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both) :- assembly, church.

This does not describe a religious institution, just a meeting, gathering, a community of believers that come together to worship and praise the Lord, and help, encourage and edify each other in their walk with the Lord. All of these churches make up the body of Christ - the church.

Paul says in Romans -

“Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ greet you.” Romans 16:16

John writes in Revelation -

“John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come; and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne;” - Rev. 1:4

… If anyone can help, I’d greatly appreciate it or if anybody wants to join in, the discussion is going on here.

 

[KBarn]

Well,

We know that the Church does have a hierarchy within it from the writings of Saint Paul. He on several occasions speaks of bishops, presbyters and deacons and mentions Christ as the head of the mystical body. He also says that the body is composed of different parts. So the early Church was not some homogenous community of believers but had a hierarchical form and authority structures.

We should also note the special privelage of the Apostles to lay hands on men who are given positions of leadership and authority in the early Church. And I am sure there is more.

It is clear, I believe, that the modern Catholic Church reflects the hierarchy established by Christ when He invested His apostles, and in a special way Peter, with His authority to make disciples of all nations and exercise the authority symbolized by the “keys.”

 

[Ghosty]

This is a classic example of the either/or Protestant mentality. The answer is that Jesus set up a community of believers AND a hierarchy for guarding the truth. This is seen easily be the passages your friend has mentioned, and also those dealing with the appointing of the Apostles with the power to “bind and loose”, Peter being called specifically to guide the “flock”, and the references by Paul to bishops, priests, and deacons.

I would also point out that the Church absolutely recognizes the authority of the flock of believers as a whole in confirming truth.

 

[sires6]

Sir Knight:

Having a discussion on another board regarding whether Jesus established an official, visible church or just a community of believers and we’re getting into areas that I am not that knowledgable in … … If anyone can help, I’d greatly appreciate it or if anybody wants to join in, the discussion is going on here.

God established the physical Temple in Jerusalem. Which Christ visited, was presented to and worshipped at (and at many local temples). Wouldn’t he have condemned them if he should or wanted to?

 

[hlgomez]

Sir Knight,

Did Jesus said: “I will build a community…”, or " I will build my church…"?

Pio

 

[Exporter]

Ghosty:

This is a classic example of the either/or Protestant mentality. The answer is that Jesus set up a community of believers AND a hierarchy for guarding the truth. This is seen easily be the passages your friend has mentioned, and also those dealing with the appointing of the Apostles with the power to “bind and loose”, Peter being called specifically to guide the “flock”, and the references by Paul to bishops, priests, and deacons.

I would also point out that the Church absolutely recognizes the authority of the flock of believers as a whole in confirming truth.

---

Ghosty has written what I would have said. When Jesus told Peter he was the Rock and "bind and loose, etc - the church of Jesus Christ was forned. What else do you need to know? The Protestants would give a barrel of gold to be able to show that Peter wasn’t the Rock, do you know why?

 

[mikeabele]

The church began in Acts 2. It started in Jerusalem then following the Great Commision went out at first to the Jew then to the Gentile. Christ is recorded being the head of the church, and that in all things He will have preeminence. The apostles(those eye witnesses to Christ’s resurrection) did lay hands on and give authority, but the Bible doesn’t record this authority being passed on (the apostles died by 100AD, so the oldest possible person with this authority would have died by 200AD). What the Bible does record is that the Teacher, Comforter, and who was sent to take Christ’s place on earth was not a man such as Peter or Clement, but the Holy Spirit.

John 16

4But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you. 5But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou? 6But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart. 7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. 12I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

God bless

 

[sires6]

mikeabele:

The church began in Acts 2. It started in Jerusalem then following the Great Commision went out at first to the Jew then to the Gentile. Christ is recorded being the head of the church, and that in all things He will have preeminence. The apostles(those eye witnesses to Christ’s resurrection) did lay hands on and give authority, but the Bible doesn’t record this authority being passed on (the apostles died by 100AD, so the oldest possible person with this authority would have died by 200AD). What the Bible does record is that the Teacher, Comforter, and who was sent to take Christ’s place on earth was not a man such as Peter or Clement, but the Holy Spirit.

John 16

4But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you. 5But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou? 6But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart. 7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. 12I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

God bless

Does that take into account people who said they had the Authority of God who where alive during the last Apostle’s lives? What of Iranaeus who was alive and wrote during the first two centuries? What of Clement who wrote with Authority over divisive issues while John and disciples of John and others were still alive? That those who knew of John and his authority wrote of the Apostolic Succession and their authority over others in Rome - like Justin Martyr, Iraneaus, Tertullian and Eusebius?

As Christ passed his authority to them and they laid on hands and gave authority-who would they give it to? Certainly the people they were passing on their charges “sheep”. It’s hard to believe that given authority from God, from Chirst, to bind and to loose, to forgive sins, that they would let that fizzle unless God himself had said, “No, this is only for you.” And there are all sorts of logical reasons for that not to have occurred.

 

[John_Henry]

mikeabele:

The apostles(those eye witnesses to Christ’s resurrection) did lay hands on and give authority, but the Bible doesn’t record this authority being passed on

Paul layed hands on Timothy, giving him authority:
“I remind you to rekindle the gift of God that is within you through the laying on of my hands.” (2 Tim 1:6)

Consequently, Timothy was under commission to lay hands on others, giving them authority:
“Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands, nor participate in another man’s sins.” (1 Tim 5:22)

Paul had also given authority to Titus through the laying on of hands. Thus we find Titus under the same obligation:
“This is why I left you [Titus] in Crete, that you might amend what was defective, and appoint presbyters in every town as I directed you.” (Titus 1:5)

 

[space_ghost]

…i have been turning pages through Matthew, and no where can i find "upon this rock i will build my community…



or commune

 

[Genesis315]

Last time I checked, the Catholic Church is a community of believers. What’s the problem?

Even non-denominational types have a visible church. They all show up at some building and they have a pastor who preaches to them or tells them how to read the Bible. I don’t really see the difference except that the Catholic Church just does it on a larger scale.

 

[ferdie]

mikeabele:

The church began in Acts 2. It started in Jerusalem then following the Great Commision went out at first to the Jew then to the Gentile. Christ is recorded being the head of the church, and that in all things He will have preeminence. The apostles(those eye witnesses to Christ’s resurrection) did lay hands on and give authority, but the Bible doesn’t record this authority being passed on (the apostles died by 100AD, so the oldest possible person with this authority would have died by 200AD). What the Bible does record is that the Teacher, Comforter, and who was sent to take Christ’s place on earth was not a man such as Peter or Clement, but the Holy Spirit.
God bless

Yes you are right, the Holy Spirit will be here to guide the church until the end of time. Since you like quoting the scripture, where in the bible does it says that the** laying of hands and the passing of the authority will stop?**" If you can’t find one verse, how do you explain this:

“Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands, nor participate in another man’s sins." (1 Tim 5:22)

What will happen if they become hasty in “laying of hands”?

 

[Christy_Beth]

Matt. 16:18 “And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock*** I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH.”***

Matt. 18:17 “If he refuses to listen to them, tell the CHURCH. If he refuses to listen even to the CHURCH, then treat him as you would a gentile or a tax collector.”

These two verses clearly show that Jesus founded a viable church. HIS church. This church isn’t bound by our limitations. It is a world wide body of believers.

 

[Ignatius]

Sir Knight:

Having a discussion on another board regarding whether Jesus established an official, visible church or just a community of believers and we’re getting into areas that I am not that knowledgable in … … If anyone can help, I’d greatly appreciate it or if anybody wants to join in, the discussion is going on here.

What did Jesus say? (see Matthew 16:18)

 

[DianJo]

Wow! You must feel like the protestants on this board - bombarded by them as I’m sure we bombard the protestants here!

Don’t fret - nothing you can say will ever change the mind of any person on that board!

I would offer a suggestion though - The poster asking specifically about salvation outside the Catholic Church - you might quote the Catechism for her. It explains the statement of “outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation.”

 

[vern_humphrey]

Jesus practiced what we in the Army call “Aufstriegtactik” - meaning establish objectives and allowing subordinates to determine how to best achieve them.

He taught the Apostles what He wanted them to teach us, and let them determine how they would go about it. Very quickly, it became obvious that a growing church needed organization. You can see that organization emerge in Acts and in the Epistles of Paul.

The early history of the Church – when it was bombarded with pagan sects trying to take it over, or graft their message onto Christ’s message shows how wise the Apostles were in organizing a Church that could withstand such attacks.

 

[thessalonian]

Yes & Yes.

 

[ceasar]

i don’t think that really matters…for the sake of discussion…i believe he established a community of believers…that ultimately form one church…one body…see…we can have seperate interpretations…and seperate denominations etc…but we’re still one body…now.i understand there are beliefs that are crucial to the body…like salvation…but, i mean…come on…if someone believes that speaking in tongues is true or not true…is not really relevant to our salvation…anyone who is saved is part of the body…“the church”…so the body is not specifically tied to one organization…but a community of believers…

Ceasar

 

[vern_humphrey]

ceasar:

i don’t think that really matters…for the sake of discussion…i believe he established a community of believers…that ultimately form one church…one body…see…we can have seperate interpretations…and seperate denominations etc…but we’re still one body…now.i understand there are beliefs that are crucial to the body…like salvation…but, i mean…come on…if someone believes that speaking in tongues is true or not true…is not really relevant to our salvation…anyone who is saved is part of the body…“the church”…so the body is not specifically tied to one organization…but a community of believers…

Ceasar

There can be only one truth. Separation into sects shows that many of us do not receive the truth.