Did Jesus Exist? (Pros and Cons)

[Sepharad]

Probably starting another thread Don’t they remind you of the Islam? Their orthodox way with the scripture only interpreted by them etc. Except they don’t even think Jesus existed.

I never said in this thread what I felt, one way or the other. I posted a link which gave BOTH sides of the debate.

 

[Hobble]

I don’t believe he did. The only historical reference to him is in the bible, which isn’t very accurate for history, and I think in the bible he represents the sun.

but I haven’t studied the matter very much, so I may be off.

 

[Cathdefender]

I don’t believe he did. The only historical reference to him is in the bible, which isn’t very accurate for history, and I think in the bible he represents the sun.

but I haven’t studied the matter very much, so I may be off.

He represents the sun? Lord have mercy… :whacky:

 

[dessert]

I never said in this thread what I felt, one way or the other. I posted a link which gave BOTH sides of the debate.

So you are leaving us guessing Well that is cool.
An OP usually starts a debate because of opinions or convictions of her own but I guess you just want to be the MC. I really don’t know where you are coming from. Oh well. I often don’t post a lot about things ither.

 

[Sepharad]

So you are leaving us guessing Well that is cool.
An OP usually starts a debate because of opinions or convictions of her own but I guess you just want to be the MC. I really don’t know where you are coming from. Oh well. I often don’t post a lot about things ither.

Originally, I doubted Jesus existed. I recently changed that view, but now I forget why I did (!) I think it had something to do with Christians being fed to the lions not long after Jesus is alleged to have lived…and I think I figured that those Christians surely must have met him, and we do know historically that THEY existed, so…

Sorry, I’ve had so many things on my mind lately that sometimes these kinds of things get shoved onto the backburner, mentally!

 

[Glaucon]

Originally, I doubted Jesus existed. I recently changed that view

Welcome aboard.

 

[MagicKirk]

…Then let me ask you a question if you would indulge me…
Divine inspiration aside, …based upon the time lag between their origin and the time that they were put into writing, does it seem to you that the Gospels must be AT LEAST as accurate as the Talmud?

 

[Nickkname]

I figured I’d post this very informative link to get started:

religioustolerance.org/chr_jcno.htm

You’d have to be a nut to believe Jesus didn’t exist. Even historic scholars believe he did exist. It’s not a matter of whether you believe in Jesus or not, either. It’s a matter of historicity.

 

[Sepharad]

…Then let me ask you a question if you would indulge me…
Divine inspiration aside, …based upon the time lag between their origin and the time that they were put into writing, does it seem to you that the Gospels must be AT LEAST as accurate as the Talmud?

This could turn into a very lengthy debate which I don’t have the time for right now, but I’ll answer your question in the mean time.

I see the NT (the gospels, anyway) for what they were intended as: a sort of written “infomercial” for a new, struggling religion.

It was never written, IMO, as an historical work…the intent was different on the part of its authors.

Just as I would not view the Book of Mormon as an historical work, I do not view the NT that way either.

 

[Cathdefender]

This could turn into a very lengthy debate which I don’t have the time for right now, but I’ll answer your question in the mean time.

I see the NT (the gospels, anyway) for what they were intended as: a sort of written “infomercial” for a new, struggling religion.

It was never written, IMO, as an historical work…the intent was different on the part of its authors.

Just as I would not view the Book of Mormon as an historical work, I do not view the NT that way either.

An informercial for a new srtuggling religion? Yea, tell that to the 1.12 BILLION Catholics who disagree with you, and the 480 MILLION Protestants. And how would you know what the intentions were when the book was written, were you there?

 

[Sepharad]

An informercial for a new srtuggling religion? Yea, tell that to the 1.12 BILLION Catholics who disagree with you, and the 480 MILLION Protestants. And how would you know what the intentions were when the book was written, were you there?

Did the writers of the NT write it as an historical work? Or was it written with RELIGIOUS intent?

As for the numbers you gave, they mean nothing. Might does not make right, if it did, we’d all be Muslim today.

Besides which, many if not most of those Catholics are not even in full accord with what the church teaches. I know more Catholics who practice birth control (and admit to it openly!) than ones who do not use it.

 

[Cathdefender]

Did the writers of the NT write it as an historical work? Or was it written with RELIGIOUS intent?

As for the numbers you gave, they mean nothing. Might does not make right, if it did, we’d all be Muslim today.

Besides which, many if not most of those Catholics are not even in full accord with what the church teaches. I know more Catholics who practice birth control (and admit to it openly!) than ones who do not use it.

Another non-Catholic with the wrong information…Muslim do not and will not ever surpass Catholicism, as much as some here would like that. Whether Catholics are in full accord or not, they are still Catholic. Heck I know plenty of Jews who are not religious, don’t even attend their Synagogues and just don’t plain care one way or another about your “religious holidays”.
In fact, when Edith Stein became Catholic, she saw a woman in a Catholic church just praying and claimed that the Jews and Protestants just simply go to service. But the Catholic person was praying as if she were having an intimate conversation with our Lord. This was on her way to becoming a Catholic.

 

[Sepharad]

Another non-Catholic with the wrong information…Muslim do not and will not ever surpass Catholicism, as much as some here would like that. Whether Catholics are in full accord or not, they are still Catholic. Heck I know plenty of Jews who are not religious, don’t even attend their Synagogues and just don’t plain care one way or another about your “religious holidays”.
In fact, when Edith Stein became Catholic, she saw a woman in a Catholic church just praying and claimed that the Jews and Protestants just simply go to service. But the Catholic person was praying as if she were having an intimate conversation with our Lord. This was on her way to becoming a Catholic.

If Edith Stein truly thought that all Jews do was ‘go to services’, then she was CLEARLY ignorant of what Judaism is and teaches, which frankly, does not surprise me since she apostasized to Catholicism anyway

Evidently, Stein did not know what it means to “daven” (pray), because evidently, she’s never seen Jews do it. I have seen orthodox Jews daven, sway, cry during prayer. Maybe if Stein had been a religious Jew, she would have seen that and known the truth about her birthright which she cast away like garbage.

 

[Cathdefender]

If Edith Stein truly thought that all Jews do was ‘go to services’, then she was CLEARLY ignorant of what Judaism is and teaches, which frankly, does not surprise me since she apostasized to Catholicism anyway

Evidently, Stein did not know what it means to “daven” (pray), because evidently, she’s never seen Jews do it. I have seen orthodox Jews daven, sway, cry during prayer. Maybe if Stein had been a religious Jew, she would have seen that and known the truth about her birthright which she cast away like garbage.

Why do you belittle this extraordinary, intelligent philosopher? Just because she found the truth in Jesus Christ means she was ignorant? she simply stated how holy this woman was. Accept it.
The fact is that you’ve only seen Orthodox Jews do it and not your other kind, clearly just answered my question.

 

[Sepharad]

Why do you belittle this extraordinary, intelligent philosopher? Just because she found the truth in Jesus Christ means she was ignorant? she simply stated how holy this woman was. Accept it.
The fact is that you’ve only seen Orthodox Jews do it and not your other kind, clearly just answered my question.

Do you realize that the more details you post about Edith Stein, the more you make it plain to me how she was able to apostasize to Catholicism?

I’ve read a few books about her, but some of the tidbits you mention, I’d never read…if I had, I’d have gotten a better idea of how woefully ignorant she truly was of authentic Judaism, and how it was so easy for her to give up her faith.

It has long been known in Jewish religious circles that of the Jews who do apostasize (historically, to Catholicism), the vast majority historically did it due to ignorance of Judaism, economic reasons, a reasons of spite for family members/other Jews whom they disliked who might have been religious, or due to mental illness. (Sometimes two of those reasons, as in the case of a son of Theodore Herzl.) I’ve worked in exit counseling, helping Jews who left Judaism for other religions and who now want to return…and I have to tell you, I have seen them run the full gamut of those reasons!

I’m not saying that was always the case, but more often than not, it was. Posting comments about Edith Stein as you did just serve to confirm to me that it was the first reason for her (at least.)

 

[Cathdefender]

Do you realize that the more details you post about Edith Stein, the more you make it plain to me how she was able to apostasize to Catholicism?

I’ve read a few books about her, but some of the tidbits you mention, I’d never read…if I had, I’d have gotten a better idea of how woefully ignorant she truly was of authentic Judaism, and how it was so easy for her to give up her faith.

I’m sorry, but there is NO WAY you could of skipped over this part. THERE WAS A WHOLE CHAPTER about this. I cannot believe you ever read her book after stating this. It doesn’t matter to me one way or another, I figured this answer from you anyway.
Did you also skip over the part about her being angry at her mother for not telling her about the NT? Of course you did.

 

[Ed_Rand]

I see the NT (the gospels, anyway) for what they were intended as: a sort of written “infomercial” for a new, struggling religion.

This “new, sruggling religion”… If it wasn’t the writers of the Gospels who started it, and if Jesus was merely a good protagonist for this fable, WHO provided the impetus? I think this would have to be your likely story:

The poorer and underpriveledged of Israel were unhappy with their position under Roman occupiers and a corrupt Jewish elite. So, in order to give themselves the upperhand, they begin to tell stories of a mythical character who had come to save them. In the stories he tells them everything they want to hear…

Actually, I don’t know where to go from here. Perhaps you can continue? None of this makes sense without Jesus having really lived. Also, I don’t think there are any serious historians who claim that Jesus did not live and that it was all some fantastic lie. I don’t even think you can argue that.

You can doubt all else about him, but there was a man named Jesus who lived at that time. He aroused the suspicion of both the Jewish and Roman authorities because of what he was teaching. He was executed by Pontius Pilate. I don’t think any of that is arguable.

 

[Sepharad]

I’m sorry, but there is NO WAY you could of skipped over this part. THERE WAS A WHOLE CHAPTER about this. I cannot believe you ever read her book after stating this. It doesn’t matter to me one way or another, I figured this answer from you anyway.
Did you also skip over the part about her being angry at her mother for not telling her about the NT? Of course you did.

We probably did not read the same books about her. I’ve read two, and this was one of them, many years ago:

amazon.com/Edith-Stein-Biography-Philosopher-Auschwitz/dp/0898704103/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1213562326&sr=1-1

You never did answer me when I asked you this before, and I believe another poster also asked you this and you did not reply:

WHY would a JEWISH daughter be ANGRY at a JEWISH mother for not telling her about the CHRISTIAN Bible??

Should a Catholic daughter be angry at her Catholic mother for never telling her about the Quran?

Or, more likely, was Stein just looking for a reason to be angry at her mother, and hence, feel better about her eventual apostasy? After all, its easier for some people to do something a parent would dislike if they are not on good terms with that parent, than if they are.

The human mind is a funny thing sometimes!

 

[Cathdefender]

We probably did not read the same books about her.

You never did answer me when I asked you this before, and I believe another poster also asked you this and you did not reply:

WHY would a JEWISH daughter be ANGRY at a JEWISH mother for not telling her about the CHRISTIAN Bible??

Should a Catholic daughter be angry at her Catholic mother for never telling her about the Quran?

Or, more likely, was Stein just looking for a reason to be angry at her mother, and hence, feel better about her eventual apostasy? After all, its easier for some people to do something a parent would dislike if they are not on good terms with that parent, than if they are.

The human mind is a funny thing sometimes!

No Stein was not looking for a reason to be mad at her mother…good grief but I suppose that will make you feel better to think that.
If my mother had not showed me the Old Testament, I may of been mad too. The NT is part of the OT. The Quran is false.

 

[Sepharad]

No Stein was not looking for a reason to be mad at her mother…good grief but I suppose that will make you feel better to think that.
If my mother had not showed me the Old Testament, I may of been mad too. The NT is part of the OT. The Quran is false.

You are making absolutely no sense. And it is “may have”, not “may of” (sorry, but as someone who teaches English, that is a pet peeve of mine!)

You still did not answer my question, WHY should a JEWISH mother have been expected to show a JEWISH daughter a CHRISTIAN Bible???

And the Christian Bible is not part of the Jewish Bible, good grief! The ONLY people who see the Christian Bible as belonging mixed in with the Jewish Bible are CHRISTIANS. And Edith Stein’s mother was not a Christian!